Jay
Personally, I think the reason the big cats are taking these smaller animals when there are plenty of deer in the area, is for two reasons. First, that they are adapting to living closer to inhabited areas, and becoming bolder. And secondly, it seems natural that a predator will go for an easier kill. I feel this is going to become an increasing issue for farmer's and ranchers who have livestock and domestic animals and pets, such as Dawn, her neighbors and folks out your way.

Interesting that in Colorado when these big cats wander into towns such as the foothills around Boulder and they begin killing domestic pets, the Wildlife people "haze" them with rubber bullets as a form of "adversion therapy" to cause them to be human leary. I'm not sure whether they trap them, or tranquilize them first, and then haul them off to some more remote region, and then "haze" them.

Having lived in Colorado, and traveled all through the mountains, people have moved into every area on the Eastern slope and built cabins, and created small towns just about everywhere in that region. So, it's small wonder that Big Cats are finding new ways of obtaining "fast food".

Barbara

Barbara,
If you lived in CO then you might know of this area. The town is Campo between Springfield, CO and Boise City,OK. A small and a very rural town in a sparsely populated area. The town itself is in the flat open. Jay

Jay,
I don't specifically remember Campo, per se, but have traveled many, many times through the panhandle on my way to Denver, or down into New Mexico. Sometimes I'd take the back roads just over the Okie line into Kansas, and other times through the Okie panhandle onto Raton, depending where I was headed, just for change of scenery. What I remember is as you say, rugged, wide open country and sparcely populated. Lots of room for Mountain Lions to move in, as they reproduce and are forced to find new hunting grounds.
Keep us posted on updates please. And thanks for the info.
I think we're starting to see these predators behaving in new, and unusual ways it seems.

Barb

Jay and Barb,

Poor doggy. I hope it survived and could be saved, although that is unlikely.

These cougars in places where they don't exist seem to be much more common lately. Yearlings would make more sense than full-grown adults because the yearlings are having to travel and find their own hunting territory.

I hope you'll keep us posted on further developments.

Dawn

Campo is within 5 miles of where a hunter killed one a couple of years ago and within 25 miles of where the park manager at Black Mesa got the picture of two of them recently and within 30 miles of where 3 others have been killed in the last 5 years. There are moderate breeding populations in that area. I don't think having yearlings travel a few miles from the foothills is unusual.

Scott the unusual part is coming into the edge of town. They are seen 8-10 miles west and then south closer to the river about every year. Usually just one or two. But I know people who have lived there for years some raised there and none have ever known them to come to town before. Yes it is fairly close to populated areas. About 25 miles west of my station. My station is just north of the river. There has been reported sightings through the years 2 miles south of my station. And one was killed in that area several years ago. And since we built the station in 78 I only know of the one that made it that far. Sure there has been others. Know of a few 5-6 miles west on the river. They tend to follow the river usually. And wander off it a little. I think like with Dawn people are comfortable knowing they are in area but a little unnerving to many when they come to town and kill animals. But another reason I enjoy this country. You can still see things in a natural setting. Now bears tend to come down the river and pass north of town here almost every year. And have had them wander into town before. Not as intimidating to most as a lion is. I think like you said as the breeding populations grow we will see more especially yearlings in new areas. Jay

It was only a couple of decades ago there were really none even breeding in that area I think. Now there are enough for them to need to find new prey or new territories due to competition - not that it has a lot of prey to begin with there. Most will probably move other directions, but like you said, more of them will have to start moving this way.

I was wrong about one being killed by a hunter 5 miles from Campo. There have been a dozen or so in that cougar management area, but the nearest two were at the far end of the county about 25 miles away. Here is the link to the cougar management plan for that area of Colorado. Campo is on the far east border of it. Most people have a life and don't care about this stuff, but I can't get enough of it.

Here is a link that might be useful: Colorado Mtn Lion Management - Area L17

Jay
This was a particularly interesting account of a Cougar attack because I grew up in Kay County, just West of the Osage County line, not that many miles from where this woman lived when she was attacked.

We lived in the country very close to the Arkansas River bottom, in a heavily wooded area close to Indian Hill lake and our place had a creek running through it, about 11 miles east of Ponca City. I was about 5 yrs old at the time and used to roam that area like a boy.

When we first moved to Oklahoma I was 4 yrs old and lived in the country close to Newkirk, Ok just across the Kansas line. That's where this woman was attacked apparently at her farm. The case got a lot of local attention but as far as I know, the cat was never found, although could have been killed by hunters and nothing more said, who knows? It might have migrated out of that area, or died of disease. It might have been a released Cougar, we'll never know.

The Arkansas river bottom is another one of those areas that seem to attract wildlife. As you probably know, Osage County, just West of Kay County, is the largest in the state, and the least populated. It also is where the Buffalo herds roam the Tall Grass prairie. Lots of wide open spaces. Also, hinges on the edge of the Hulah Wildlife Management Area.

Anyway, this attack on the Newkirk woman was confirmed to be a large cat attack. It's not to say there is a breeding population in that area, but that entire section along the border of Kansas and Oklahoma would seem to be the type of territory that would be attractive as hunting grounds for big cats to live and thrive in, mostly undetected, except for the rare occasion, like this one which occurred just a few years ago in 2002.

The Cougar that was hit by the train several years ago was also close to the Oklahoma/Kansas border.

I don't doubt for a minute this woman's account is real and truthful. She has the scars to prove it. But the funny thing is that the Wildlife personel never confirm anything unless they personally see it, photo it, game cam it, or kill it. Like they said on one link that was posted, they got a "good visual". Sightings by the private sector seem to be mostly disregarded as dubious or erroneous.

This reminds me of the woman who was killed in Arkansas where there aren't supposed to be Cougars, because the cat was never found. Yet the way she died had all the earmarks of a big cat attack.

I'm glad that at least Dawn and her neighbors down south have finally gotten enough attention to at least have a trap set up. Maybe though, they should move the trap to another location with less human scent-or-get a larger trap, and give the poor rooster a break before he has a nervous breakdown.

This link has some good descriptions of encounters with Cougars, a couple of which occurred here in Oklahoma.

One more mention; apparently Oklahoma is now allowing limited hunting of Black Bears down in SE OK where they appear to be migrating from Arkansas. If you've been down in that area, you know how rugged and wild it is. Bears in Oklahoma. What next?

Barbara

Here is a link that might be useful: Kay County, OK just So of KS line

Jay,

If only the wild things would stay where we think they should! I used to love seeing a cougar walking across somebody else's pasture. Clearly, once one was strolling across our front yard, I wasn't as happy to see it. I really don't mind them being around the river bottoms area of Love County, but I sure wish they'd stay there and not venture up here onto the higher ground.

Scott,

I read the Colorado Mtn. Lion management plan. I guess I didn't realize they allowed Mtn. Lion hunting anywhere. (Silly me!)

I am at heart a conservationist. I love watching the wildlife on our place (well, within reason) and I hate the thought of any wild animal being shot 'just because'. Deer season kind of breaks my heart every year because my inner child loves looking out into the yard and seeing 'Bambi'. However, my inner adult knows that populaton levels have to be managed and that too many deer can result in winter starvation.

Barbara,

Your comment "used to roam that area like a boy" reminded me of my childhood. We lived in a small town on the edge of Fort Worth. It wasn't rural but it did lay between Fort Worth and Lake Worth and still had lots of undeveloped land (not undeveloped any longer, sadly) where we kids come run through the woods and play around creeks and ponds. I was such a tomboy! No girls lived in our neighborhood until I was 9 years old, so I just ran wild with the boys much to my mom's dismay. I think it was during those early years that I developed such an affection for the outdoors and for animals. We collected fossils, we bird-watched, we built forts, we had horny toads for pets in cardboard boxes filled with sand. It was a great childhood, but not the one my mom envisioned for me.....I had a room full of sadly neglected baby dolls and Barbie dolls. LOL

Bears? No. In fact, no, no, no, no, no. Why can't they go back to Arkansas and stay there.

When we bought land here, we knew it was likely that there were cougars a few counties west and bears a few counties east, but we thought we were moving into deer country and we liked it that way. Silly us. I don't think a bear in the yard would bother me as much as a big cat in the yard though.

Dawn

Dawn
Here's the strange thing, and I'm sure it was the same way growing up in the semi-rural rather wild area where you lived as a child. Neither one of us probably ever saw anything wilder than a possum or more dangerous than a venomous snake. My parents were pretty savvy about country life, but I can never remember them warning me not to go wandering around by myself investigating every nook and cranny. Only to stay away from the lake.
If there were any dangerous animals around, they didn't try to come in close to where we lived, although we did have chickens, pets, and livestock. I can never remember them having a problem with coyotes until many years later.

As far as the bears are concerned, I don't think they are chicken snatchers, and I really don't think you'll have any problems where you live because apparently most of the migrants are farther over to the east of you, as you said. I would be a bit concerned if I lived in bear territory. They can be and are a very dangerous animal, but not nearly as sneaky as a big cat. Caution, not paranoia is always the best rule when one lives in such areas, something we may not have realized as kids, but certainly do now.

Barbara

Barbara,

And we didn't have to worry about human predators then either! Nor did we have to worry about somebody's aggressive dogs getting out and attacking people.

I don't remember any wildlife in our neighborhood to worry about in the 1960s and 1970s when I was a kid, except once some neighbors who went to the lake house for the weekend apparently brought home a copperhead on their boat trailer or something when they returned because one was found in the driveway. Later on, as an adult living in the same neighborhood, we had a possum now and then, and my brother once had a red fox IN HIS MAILBOX in the same neighborhood but he lived closer to the river.

Even when we visited relatives in very rural areas, I don't remember anyone ever cautioning us to watch out for coyotes or skunks or whatever.

I could handle bears. Tim grew up around bears in Pennsylvania and it didn't seem like the bears were a big problem for his family. (Granted, times have changed and they may be more trouble now.)

I suppose it might be really hard to have a working compost pile (or a garden) in bear country, so I'm glad there aren't bears here.

Dawn

Dawn and Barbara,
Like I've mentioned as youth on the ranches we roamed. Our activities were curtailed some as we were kept fairly busy. But allowed time to have fun. We never realized what those in the big cities had. We were poor but always well fed and happy. And roam we did. I'm sure my Mother was worried but we had no fear. Now I wouldn't do many of the things we did then. We knew the country somewhat from helping cowboy. So when we had time we had to explore caves, old Indian camping grounds, old adobe homes, creek beds, ect.The only thing I can say we only did once was go swimming without an adult. We got caught and never did that again. Now it would be considered child abuse what happened. Always told to stay close to the house. When boys are together all on good horses what is close? Like I said a few stray cinnamon were probably the biggest threats. And they were usually a little farther north. Both sand rattlers and diamond back rattlers. And by the time we were 6-7 yr old we could kill either with a rope. And we didn't saddle without a rope. The men carried guns. Never allowed to carry a gun with other boys. But did go rabbit hunting ect by myself. Used to kill cotton tails and grandma would help me clean them and we would eat them. When young very good. Like I said before the only scare we had was in a cave when we heard a noise and thought it was a bear. Sure it wasn't looking back. But to 11-12 yr old boys your imagination takes over. . But we didn't go back there for a while. The caves were dark and snakes like to sun on the ledges. Of course always warned about the dangers of going in them. Sure my Dad and his brothers had explored everyone of them in their youth. Also was handy to know where they were. If caught out riding and a storm came up safer than most homes. You would hobble or ground tie your horse and head to a cave. Otherwise your only choice was a slicker. But if lightning was around you always got off your horse and never got under a tree. Just the way we were taught. And like I've said the cats where we lived weren't considered a threat to humans. Really the bears weren't. One would come into the camps in the foothills and tear up things. But never heard of them hurting any humans. So yes there were dangers but we were raised around them and didn't stop to think about them. And as I look back the best days of my life. Jay

My DH was fishing in Alaska and a bear came down the river bank. Her cubs were on the other bank, as was a moose, but the cubs just kind of followed the riverbank along with their mother eventhough the river was between them. During the salmon season, the rivers are lined with fisherman. In fact, too many for my liking, but everyone is catching fish. Anyway, as the bear approached, the fisherman all ran, leaving their gear in place. My husband says if he had been quick, he could have opened the biggest used fishing equipment store in the state. LOL Everyone just ran for their vehicles.

Several people that worked on the north slope during the building of the pipeline told me that if a bear once broke into a car thru the windshield, they had to kill them because they never forgot how to do it. They could slip their claws under the edge of the windshield and pop it out.

I only have one bear story that happened to me personally. My husband worked for the Boy Scouts for a couple of years and I went to Philmont Scout Ranch with him for one training session. We stayed in the permanent tents that are set up there. They have wood floors and a short side wall, but the top and most of the side is tent. From this district, there were two couples plus a local Judge and his young son. The judge was two tents down from us with an apple tree just outside his tent door. We had been warned that the bear had been particular bad that year so we should be careful. On night one, when I was almost asleep, I heard this gosh awful noise with people beating on pans and yelling. It seems a small bear was in the area and had climbed the apple tree. Of course, we all got dressed and went out to watch this cub up the tree. The judge's son was really curious and everyone, including his father, kept pulling him back, as he would slowly inch closer and closer to watch. After quiet a while, it came down only to climb up another tree. They gave the judge another tent for the night and we all went back to bed.

A few mornings later, they came around to tell use that a bear was in the tree in front of the dining hall and we should take a wide path around and come through the back door for breakfast. They didn't have to tell me twice, because this time it was a large bear. I think they finally had to drop him out of the tree with a tranquilizer gun, but I'm not sure. Anyway, they solved it and no one talked about it because we really didn't want to know the outcome. We were just happy he was gone since they had tried all morning to get him to come down.

Thankfully I don't have a couger story. My daughter says they are continuing to lose pets in the Tuttle area, but they believe that is a "panther" that was someone's pet at one time. That may not be true, but is the story going around.

Carol,

When we were at Philmont, I didn't see a bear, but some folks attending the training sessions with us had camped out in a small camper on their way to Philmont. They arrived early and stayed in a roadside campground near Philmont. They had bears outside the trailer every night, and on at least one night the bear was trying to open the door to the trailer. The only wildlife I saw from "too close" at Philmont was a huge elk while out hiking one afternoon. He was beautiful, but I'd rather have seen him from a bit further away.

I hope they find the 'panther' in the Tuttle area and remove it one way or another before too many pets die. Unless they know for sure that someone is missing a former pet panther, I don't know how they can be so sure it is a panther that used to be a pet until they catch it and test it/check it for tattoos, etc.

My favorite news story on Yahoo this week was the one about bears breaking into buildings in the Aspen area. Why? Because one bear broke into a fur shop. I giggle every time I think about that.

Dawn

Yeh, part of that bear may get to visit that fur shop again.

Dawn you mentioning elk reminded me. I said there was plenty of deer in the Campo area. There is also a few nice herds of elk. Enough they issue permits and allow hinting in the area. A coworker has a permit for that area this fall. And lots of antelope. So shouldn't be hard for a lion to get a meal without heading into town for domestic animals and pets. In fact most wouldn't mind them thinning the antelope out some. Jay

Carol, LOL.

Jay, I like elk and antelope. Of course, it is easy for me to say that because we don't have them here in southern OK.

Isn't it nice to know the cougars will hang around forever and thrive because they have a good food supply there?

Dawn

Dawn

Do I sense a certain element of sardonic humor in your last comment?

~lol~

Barbara

Dawn not sure if the good food supply makes any difference when they apparently prefer domestic animals. Jay

Jay
That's exactly right! I've heard people say the Mountain Lions were here first. That's true, along with deer, elk, and other game, and no domestic livestock. It seems to be that habituating factor again. Maybe their broadening their culinary preferences as well. Easy kill, tastes like chicken.

Barbara

Barb,

Well, a sense of humor makes all things bearable, doesn't it? And, yes, you did sense a certain element in that comment! So very perceptive of you. LOL

Jay,

I do wonder about that. For example, there are lazy human beings and there are others who are not lazy. So, if it takes a lot of work and effort for a mountain lion to stalk and catch an antelope or deer, then maybe the ones eating domestic animals are just the cougars that are lazy and are going for the easy kill. THAT would scare me because eventually mountain lions might begin to see human beings as easy prey. Look at how often small children are attacked in California and in Canada.

Barbara, "Tastes like chicken....". Priceless.

Dawn

Dawn,
I agree and I feel that is why there is concern in the area they were seen. Most of the people here have grown up here and are hardy folks who accept the normal elements as harsh as they can be as a way of life. Just like you adapted when you moved from TX. It is not the fact lions were sighted. It is where they were sighted, how they acted and their actions. Which were not normal for what we've all known in the past. Is it an exception. Only time will tell and we all hope so. But with so many reports of similar happenings in other areas where lions are found it raises concern. It is time to panic but time to take notice. And I feel from what I've been told that the CO department of wildlife has and is taking action. Don't feel I should say more. Jay

Jay and Dawn
On the news today on my homepage of AOL. I think in CA but maybe not. Another little boy attacked by a Mountain Lion. I think he was about 8 or 9. His mom then attacked the Mountain Lion. Big mistake for the lion. He should have known how mom's are when defending one of their kids.
Anyway, the boy was lucky for her being there, and he received some bad scratches to the scalp, but no facial ripping, crushing or disfigurement.
Open season on humans, pets and livestock it looks like.

~Barb~

Barb,
Could this be the story you were talking about? Read the whole article. It is very good. And read the comments below. Hard to believe some of them. Jay

Here is a link that might be useful: Mother fights off Mountain Lion

Jay
That's the one!

And just yesterday, my Interface on AOL had the video of Ann Heile's ordeal about the Mountain Lion attack she survived although with terrible disfiguration of her face, and multiple reconstruction surgeries. I know she and her family are just thanking God she survived. It could easily have been fatal.

If we are going to have to live with these predators, we'd all be well advised to know what to do, 'in case of'. I'm asking my son to please be armed and alert when camping and treking in the wildernesses where he often goes, in NM, Utah and Wyoming.

Ann's video can be seen on this link. It's shocking. I must say, she seems to be a great lady, and very lucky to be alive.

Barb

Here is a link that might be useful: Video of Ann Heile's account of Cougar attack

Barb,

I guess that cougar did learn an important lesson: No one messes with mama's little boy.

Jay,

Some of those comments are disgusting. Sadly, there are a lot of eco-wackos who share those sentiments. The comments about letting cougars kill children just made me sick.

Am I the only one who noticed the mom's name was Dawn? In light of this summer's goings-on, I found that an odd coincidence.

Dawn

Dawn
I didn't see the comments but it wouldn't surprise me at all. I'm pretty sure if they had to live in close proximity to these beasts and have to be afraid to walk out of the house-or-have one of their children mauled,permanently and painfully disfigured, or worse, killed, they might think differently about it. Unfortunately, this is a sign of the times we live in. To this sort of person, as long as it happens to someone else, it doesn't matter.
These Cougars, Mountain Lions, Big Cats -are apparently transitioning into full blown mankillers. But, oh, we must be 'environmentally correct'. After all, humans aren't an endangered species.

Barb

Dawn,
I didn't read them all but read enough to get my gut full. Have seen that type before. And what we face out here in rural areas. People with opinions who have no clue. But it still amazes me how uninformed and lack of compassion they have for human life and domestic animals. Jay

Anyone wanting to know the latest I have heard can email me. Some is confirmed and some not so hesitate to post it online. Understand they are still in the area. Jay