Jay,

All my cherries have produced well, but I've decided I really don't like the others as much as I like Ildi, Sungold, Sweet Million and Black Cherry so I'm toying with making those the only cherries I plant next year, and then adding Tess's Land Race Currant as a main source of tomatoes for drying and planting a Sara's Galapagos alongside it for comparison's sake.

By far the best producers in August have been Cuban Yellow Grape (average flavor), SunGold and Ildi. Black Cherry and Sweet Million have had all their foliage eaten by grasshoppers so they can't produce anything due to a lack of photosynthesis. Based on that, I'd say grasshoppers prefer the flavor of Black Cherry and Sweet Million foliage to the others.

Sweet Treats produced enormous yields for me in May and June and had decent flavor but just wasn't as special as my four favorites. The grasshoppers have hit Sweet Treats almost as hard as the other two they like. For whatever reason, the hoppers have not touched the foliage of Ildi or Cuban Yellow Grape. Both Jelly Bean and Yellow Jelly Bean produced large yields for dehydrating, which is why I planted them as I don't care for them fresh, but the hoppers ate those plants in July too once they ran out of tomato foliage they preferred more.

Sun Cherry, touted as the red relative of SunGold just isn't as tasty as I'd hoped and I doubt it will make a return engagement.

Tumbling Tom Yellow and Tumbling Tom Red were beautiful plants until the grasshoppers stripped them of their foliage in mid-July and produced enormous yields. The flavor was only average, but I'd like to qualify that by saying that even home-grown tomatoes rated 'average' in my garden are still far superior to store-bought. I may grow them again simply because I liked the way they looked in hanging baskets, 5-gallon buckets and even in the ground, where they spread out and formed a groundcover. DS and DH liked those tumbling tomatoes just fine and tossed them into salads and DS took bags and bags of them to work at the fire station.

With all the heat, the cherries have been the most productive plants by far although a couple of paste types have pretty much kept pace with them. I've even used cherry types in salsa a lot this summer instead of drying them since the other tomatoes slowed down production so early. (It would not be easy to use them in large quantities in canned salsa if I didn't have a Roma/Villaware strainer to process them easily.)

I think I have only 2 or 3 gallons of dehydrated cherries in the freezer, but that's probably 'enough'. I've been too distracted by massive canning projects to focus as much on dehydrating this year....

I have a recipe that calls for two quarts of Sungold for a golden-yellow Sungold Soup. Unfortunately, I've never made it and probably never will because no one in this family can keep their hands off the Sungolds long enough for me to accumulate two quarts of them.

I'll wait and rate the big tomatoes when you do.

Dawn

Dawn,
Cherry types have never been favorites of mine in the past. I grew a few here and there but probably 3 out of 5 years I didn't grow any. Then last year after several of my grower friends on the forums highly suggested some. I decided to experiment with a few to see if I found any I like. Juane Flammee' has been my favorite smaller type for years and the only one I must grow every year. I will list it when I do a review of larger plum types ect.

As you know the Texas Star cross wasn't expected. And a very pleasant surprise. I couldn't even guess how many I eat in the garden. It is such a prolific producer though that many find it too the house. I may try to find your post on how to dry some. Either that or get your soup recipe. I have a quart of them setting in the kitchen now and more to pick. I hope I can stabilize it. If I can I feel many will like it. An attractive good tasting large sized cherry. But as you know sometimes that can be more difficult than many think. I will also be growing out two more larger types seeing if they grow true or if I can stabilize them. So will have my plate full. JD's Special Pink a heart shape with excellent flavor and moderate production and Mystery Black a black pear. Both of these came from the same source and he said he wasn't sure either was stable. Black Cherry is as good as most have said. I may have to grow Sungold hybrid and Sungold OP together to make a better judgment between them.

I have started my grow list for 2011 and plan to follow it closer than I have in the past. Making decisions while impressions are still fresh. For cherries I will probably grow the following next year.
Blondkopfchen
Camp Joy
Black Cherry
Sungold Hybrid
Texas Star Cherry Cross
Sungold OP or another of the Sungold op selections

This will give me a couple of new ones to try and bring back those I've liked from this year and the past. I might be sent another cross or two to try. If not then I might grow Sweet Treats for the production and reliability.

I will rate the other types as I taste all or most of the different varieties. I have about 5 varieties in the kitchen I will taste and save seeds from this weekend. Also have to work this afternoon so that will slow things down. I will take pictures and keep posting them as I taste and save seeds. I like to see pictures myself. That is how I knew my Gregori's Altai is the wrong fruit type. It came from an online vendor. I may try to find a new source and try it again. I already have seeds from a different source for Texas Star next year. In fact besides what I get sent to try I think I only have one variety to obtain and I'm set for next year. Of course still hope to obtain a few more of Tomato Man's varieties to try. Jay

Okay, my curiousity has me by the tail again. When you talk about "stable" versus "non-stable", can you explain this? And, how do you go about "stabilizing" a tomato?

Purely for my edification, I thank you!

Oh, and BTW, I like the Supersweet 100 I am growing and bringing in by the "shirt-fulls". You know what that means, don't ya?

Susan

Susan,
I'm heading out to eat and will explain it more later. Just a quick explanation. Is if you save seeds and it grows true or very similar to the plant you harvested the fruit and seed from it is a stable variety. F1 is a hybrid cross first generation. All of the children(plants) should produce the same fruit. Then the next generation is F2 and you will see a mixture of plant and fruit types. This is where you start the selection process. You pick a plant with fruit you like and save only seed from that plant and fruit. And then in the following generations you do the same. Till the seeds all produce the same plant and fruit type you've been selecting for. It is then called a stable variety. And from what I've been told depending on the background lineage it can take from 3-10 generations and with some it is very hard even then. So when you start the process don't expect fast returns. It has to be something a person is willing to experiment with. An example is the Purple Haze F3 I'm growing this year. The F1 generation is a saladette type. My F3 produced 5-7 ounce great tasting pink beefsteaks. I like them so will grow some seed I'm saving which will be F4 and see if I can find at least 1-2 plants that produce the same fruit type next year. As I'm sure you've figured out unstable just means when you save seeds the resulting plants don't produce the same fruit type. Hope this helps some. I can go deeper later. To be honest I can get too deep myself real fast. I do go to some chat sites where some very experienced and knowledgeable growers and breeders talk. So most of what I know is what I've learned over there. Jay

Susan,
I will add that when talking about unstable varieties that there have been many internet wars over whether a variety is unstable or it is just diversity. I have seeds now from the OS(original source) that I and others feel is unstable. But others feel this variety just has a wide range of diversity in it fruit type and color. Some including myself have made selections that produce a certain color, size and flavor when saved and grown. Basically what I'm saying is there are many opinions and views on this just like any other gardening subject. In the end if you are satisfied with a variety that is what counts. There is no right or wrong answer. If you can save seeds and they reproduce close I call it stable and classify it as an op. If it is still varying widely in what it produces it is unstable. Hope this has helped. On those of mine I have doubts about I will know more next season after growing this years saved seeds out. Another reason I take pictures and save them. For future reference to see how they compare. Jay

To add to what Jay said, once a variety is considered OP and stable, you will "almost always" get the plant/fruit from seed that is virtually identical to the parent plant/fruit from which you saved seed. Why "almost always" instead of "always"? Because you still have a slight risk of: (1) accidental, unplanned, insect-induced cross-pollination and (2) genetic mutation. Most of the genetic mutations are relatively simple things. Skin color is one common genetic mutation and one example of that is the family of tomatoes arising from Cherokee Purple, including Cherokee Green and Cherokee Chocolate, which are just CPs whose skin mutated to a different color, as far as I know. I added 'as far as I know' because I don't want to start any internet wars.

Dawn

Okay, I understand it better now and thanks to both of you.

Is this sometimes why you order the same seed from a different source, to see if it is a more stable variety from one source than from the other? I have seen some of you say, for instance, that you ordered 'Black Cherry' from one seed company, but that you want to order from another company next year. Just wondered if that is why. I am just using Black Cherry as an example, purely for edification.

Susan

Seed sources are complicated and so are the reasons a person might choose seed from one company versus seed from another company.
Many of the large corporate retailers buy some if not all their seed from exactly the same seed wholesalers, so what you get from one of them is likely the exact same thing you'd get from another of them. (And, in general, those large wholesalers are growing the seeds overseas where costs are substantially lower.) So, for example, under that scenario Seed Company A, Seed Company B and Seed Company C are offering you the same exact seed grown in the same fields under the same conditions and processed the same way. Why, then,do some companies have a better reputation than others for seed germination and for seed growing true-to-type? Because they all have their own ways of shipping, handling, repackaging and storing seed. Perhaps some of those ways are better than others and consumers see it in higher germination rates for example. So, if a consumer has been happy with seed from Company A, they'll keep buying from them. But if the have a negative experience, they may switch to Company B or Company C.

With OPs, it is a little different. The more common OPs are available through large wholesalers, but many of the less well-known OPs also are often grown by the smaller companies or by contract growers hired by the smaller companies. If you are a very experienced heirloom tomato grower who knows the orginal seed source for a specific variety offered by a specific company, you may choose to order that variety only from that company because you know the seed came from someone like Craig LeHoullier. For example, both Craig LeHoullier and Carolyn Male have supplied Mike at Victory Seeds with his initial supply of some specific heirloom tomatoes they have been instrumental in saving/sharing. So, if you've grown Cherokee Purple from Victory Seeds, you can feel confident that it is the 'real deal' and not a similar but less impressive variety because you know Mike originally got his seed from Craig and has been keeping that line going.

I'm sure Jay can tell you of specific varieties from specific retailers that the tomato afficianado crowd believe is 'the real deal' versus an identically named variety from another retailer that does not seem to be true to type or to produce fruit of the same quality. As with everything else, word gets around. Sometimes when a person is disappointed in a particular variety, someone will ask them about their seed source and may be able to steer them towards a supplier whose seed performs more like one would expect. That's why you'll see someone say something like "I'm only buying this seed from Company X from now on"....because experience has taught them that there is a difference in the seed from Company G and Company X.

Some retailers repackage the seeds into their own packets instead of having a wholesaler pack it in their packets prior to shipping. There's a small margin of error in repacking and I think that's where most seed errors occur....when something like Brandywine Sudduth is mixed up with regular Pink Brandywine or something. Only a diehard tomato fanatic might notice the difference, but I guarantee the diehard fanatics WILL notice the difference and will spread the word.

Sometimes I have grown Cherokee Purple [and I'm just using it as a example because there does seem to be multiple 'strains' (not true strains) out there--the original and the imposters] from two or more sources side by side and felt like I had two different varieties. The one I choose to go with in the future will be the one that performed most like I know Cherokee Purple should perform.

We often see more seed mixups from some of the smaller retailers and I think it is because they are receiving and repacking seed from multiple sources and the more the seeds are handled, the greater the likelihood of human error.

Sometimes a young seed company grows too rapidly and expands too quickly and their initial reputation for having pure seed that produces true-to-variey types can suffer accordingly.

Sometimes a seed company that growns much of their own seed and contracts out the rest may have a quality issue for a year or two and that really hurts their reputation. I always try to give a company like that another chance because anyone can have an occasional screwup.

I don't like to judge specific seed companies on their performance in the distant past because maybe they've fixed whatever was wrong and everything is fine now. However, if I get bad seed from them 2 years in a row, I'm less likely to order from them in the future. It depends, though. If a seed company had a major issue in a given year because their seed warehouse caught fire during shipping season, that's more forgivable than if a seed company seems to have problems every single year. If they have problems every single year, then maybe you lose confidence in them.

It also matters if they take complaints seriously. Some seed companies are very diligent about replacing seed that underperforms. Others are more casual about it. I understand both approaches. The companies that are diligent about replacing underperforming or incorrectly labeled seed know that their reputation is stake and most of them go above and beyond to make you happy. However, it also is all too common for people who are new to growing from seed to blame the seed company for their own mistakes, and seed companies know that. Thus, some of them are slower to react to complaints because they know many cases of consumer unhappiness occur because the consumer is a greenhorn who's causing their own problems.

I know some people who absolutely will not buy from some sources because of past bad experiences, and I know some who buy exclusively from a couple of sources. I try to spread my consumer dollars around because I like the idea of many companies competing for our business and succeeding. One of the worst things that can happen in the seed business is for consolidation to occur repeatedly leaving the control of the seed supply in the hands of just a few firms. Healthy competition for our seed business is good for all of us.

If you watch who we order seed from, you'll see pretty quickly that the same 10 to 20 firms get most of the business from the experienced growers here and that's because, based on past performance, they've earned that business.

Dawn

In the last 6 years I've ordered from over 35 different sources along with all the exchanges and seeds I've received for free. I'm sure I have had seed from at least 75 different sources and individuals. Overall I haven't had that much trouble. I always have at least 1-2 mixed or crossed varieties every year. They have always been op/heirloom varieties. And most of the time from seed vendors and not individuals. Of all the seeds I bought that were listed in the SSE yearbook I only had one crossed variety and one source where I had zero germination on several varieties. I know I wasn't the only one who had trouble with seeds from that member. As Dawn said among the true tomato addicts word spreads fast when there is news. Even faster if it is bad news. I know this member didn't offer any seeds in 2009. The member wouldn't answer emails either. I'm sure there was a problem with how he saved the seeds. He was from a hot area and fermented. I know another grower who saved seeds in a tin building by the fermentation method a few years ago and none of his seeds germinated well. He told me it was because the building and likewise the seeds got too hot and killed them. He contacted everyone who bought seeds that year from him. I expect a few crosses and don't get upset when they occur. Of all the purchases I've made of different types of seeds I will say I can remember five bad experiences. Three of these were the same vendor. Didn't send the seed or send my money back and no return of emails. So I haven't purchased from that source in the last few years. The other 2 were similar but each with a different vendor. Unless germination or seed quality and purity was a widespread problem with seeds from a vendor I would never quit doing business on account of that. I know from saving seeds the many pit falls that can and do occur. But have for poor business and communication practices. Some may say the small growers are busy and need to be cut slack. I'm busy also. One reason I've never tried to sell seed. Only do what you have time to do and do right. Just like I tell my coworkers.

Now like Dawn says there is different selections and strains of many varieties out there. She mentioned CP. I have grown 3 different ones. The first one I grew was from a commercial source. It was small fruit with little flavor but the correct color. The second and one I still save seeds from and grow came from Craig LeHoullier who was the original source for most of the CP seed. The largest of the CP's I've grown. The last was a plant I bought from a local greenhouse this summer. Again smaller than the Craig strain but the first with the flavor I've read about. I've saved seeds of it also. It has that unique smoky flavor with a hint of salt that many talk about. The last two are both very good. One runs 2-4 ounces bigger than the other. I would hate to have to pick a favorite between them. If I did it would be Craig's just because it is the closest to the original in my opinion. I have posted pictures on my Photobucket site. I took pictures of each of the two and then Indian Stripe separately and then together to show the differences in them.

Another example is Red Brandywine. There are 3 different Red Brandywines I know about available. One vendor offers all 3. Again like CP I grew the wrong one first and wasn't impressed. Most of the experts say the correct one is Red Brandywine Landis strain. Which is a RL variety. There is also another RL strain and a PL strain. One of the sources for op/heirloom seeds for many companies is Seeds by Design. Many attribute the distribution of the supposedly wrong versions to them. The only problem with all of these wrong versions going around is an unsuspecting grower buys these and has no idea the seed is incorrect so they get the wrong impression of a variety. I would of never known I had the wrong CP if Craig hadn't seen a post and made a comment and offered to send me the correct seeds.

Now with hybrids I haven't had any trouble. I order most of my hybrids from Totally Tomatoes. As I can get 90% in one place ordering from them. Then I order Brandy Boy from Burpee. There are only a few I grow that I can't get from TT.

Anymore 95% or more of any new seeds I get come from individuals. I rarely order op/heirlooms anymore. This year will be even less. I could name many more varieties with more than one strain. And one grower will prefer one over the other. Then even the strains can have selections growers have made that some may like better than another for one reason or another. Golden Queen and Mortgage Lifter are 2 more that come to mind.

So if you grow something you like and it is an op/heirloom I would suggest saving seeds. If bought commercially you may not find it again. I've had that problem with Texas Star. I already have seeds from another source to try again next year. What happens many times is a grower sells most if not all of the seeds of a variety. Keeps just enough to grow out again. Then if a cross happens, hail or disease wipes out plants they don't have true seeds anymore. Easy to replace the more common varieties but harder and sometimes almost impossible on others. Jay

I meant to add this above. When growing new varieties you need to know them. What size,leaf shape and growth type of the plant. And then color, shape of the fruit. I write down notes on all new to me varieties. Gregori's Altai is wrong this year. It should be a 8-12 oz pinkish-red beefsteak type. The fruit on the two I grew this year are 2-3 ounce red plum shaped. The seeds came from a reputable online source than many order from. Probably a mix up. I have an individual who will send me the correct seeds. If I hadn't known what to look for I would of have unjustly judged the variety. And just because you got seeds from me or another grower you know they could be wrong. I've been fortunate but know crosses and mix ups will happen regardless of how careful I am. I don't bag so usually only save from fruit from the middle of a vine. My seed saving will slow down now as the vines have grown together so can't save that fruit. Jay

Guidelines I learned, early on, for stabilizing most vegetables, are that one ought to raise three successive generations, all with characteristics true to type, before considering a formerly crossed strain stable.

When we came back from overseas I requested seed from Tuxhorn's Red & Yellow, from a grower who received seed from me, before we left. I got 25% off types for a couple years and made it to three "pure generations last year. This year, I appear to have found a cross between it and Roma! So... back to the drawing board!

George
THlequah, OK