Pathetic sabal minor - suggestions?

16 years ago

I have a little sabal minor that I've overwintered outdoors for 3 winters now. It's next to a south-facing foundation wall. I spray it with Wiltpruf in the fall and sometimes in the winter if the weather cooperates. Most winters, I get a little leaf burn, enough to cut off one or two leaves, then I get several new ones over the summer. It still grows so slowly I can't stand it. Part of the problem may be that it gets shaded quite a lot by midsummer when the bananas get tall.

This winter, it looks pathetic. It looks burned pretty much everywhere, I'm guessing because of the very late extreme cold we had in February and March. I'm not even sure if it's alive.

Any suggestions to help it out short-term? And should I move it to a sunnier, but less protected, area if it does survive? Frankly, I'm pretty unimpressed with the whole business and tempted to just give up on it. I wanted a palm tree, not a bonsai! And I'm too cheap to buy a large hardy palm.

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Comments (17)

josh_palm_crazy
16 years ago
Your in the wrong business with an attitude like that. Ive only been doing this a couple of months and never intend to give up. I found that if you want something big you have to pay for it and if you dont pay alot you have to wait for it. Its just the nature of the hobby. Try buying alot of small plants and growing them up. Their pretty cheap if their small and you'll probably get some sense of satisfaction once they get bigger. Im cheap too but every once in a while I fully intend to splurge on something large and beautiful. I'd just scrap the sabal minor and start fresh with some trunking palms. You could probably save it but why make yourself mad. The trunking palms look better and most of them can be just as hardy as sabals so Ive heard. This all takes alot of time. Besides you said you have bananas and those are fast growing. Just mix the fast and the slow growing together and you'll never get bored. All in all if you want a big cold hardy palm tree GO BUY ONE. Or just give up. It doesn't matter to me. I like palm trees.
watergal
Original Author
16 years ago
Almost all of the plants I buy are small and I grow them up - normally I enjoy the process, I like to save money, and I find the plants acclimate better when I buy them small. But after about 3 years, I usually see some progress. My plants have to prove themselves eventually or I get rid of them in favor of something more satisfying. With only a quarter acre, I can't possibly have room for every plant I want, so each one has to earn its keep. Same rule for indoors - I have dozens of houseplants and can only hang onto the malingerers for so long.

Perhaps it would be cheaper in the long run just to buy a Home Depot tropical palm each spring and treat it as an annual. I guess I don't have the right attitude for palms. (I do overwinter about a dozen tropical hibiscus indoors, several tropical waterlilies, and assorted other tropicals, but at least they grow fast once they get outside again!)
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There is a concept called "perched water table" where the size of the pot has no real influence on drainage, here is an excerpt from another post, courtesy of "tapla" from another forum - you can do a search in the GW for more info: Water Movement in Soils Consider this if you will: Soil need fill only a few needs in plant culture. Anchorage - A place for roots to extend, securing the plant and preventing it from toppling. Nutrient Sink - It must retain sufficient nutrients to sustain plant systems. Gas Exchange - It must be sufficiently porous to allow air to the root system. And finally, Water - It must retain water enough in liquid and/or vapor form to sustain plants between waterings. Most plants could be grown without soil as long as we can provide air, nutrients, and water, (witness hydroponics). Here, I will concentrate primarily on the movement of water in soil(s). There are two forces that cause water movement through soil - one is gravity, the other capillary action. Gravity needs little explanation, but for this writing I would like to note: Gravitational flow potential (GFP) is greater for water at the top of the pot than it is for water at the bottom of the pot. I'll return to that later. Capillarity is a function of the natural forces of adhesion and cohesion. Adhesion is water's tendency to stick to solid objects like soil particles and the sides of the pot. Cohesion is the tendency for water to stick to itself. Cohesion is why we often find water in droplet form - because cohesion is at times stronger than adhesion, waters bond to itself can be stronger than the bond to the object it might be in contact with; in this condition it forms a drop. Capillary action is in evidence when we dip a paper towel in water. The water will soak into the towel and rise several inches above the surface of the water. It will not drain back into the source. It will stop rising when the GFP equals the capillary attraction of the fibers in the paper. There is, in every pot, what is called a "perched water table" (PWT). This is water that occupies a layer of soil that is always saturated & will not drain at the bottom of the pot. It can evaporate or be used by the plant, but physical forces will not allow it to drain. It is there because the capillary pull of the soil at some point will equal the GFP; therefore, the water does not drain, it is "perched". If we fill five cylinders of varying heights and diameters with the same soil mix and provide each cylinder with a drainage hole, the PWT will be exactly the same height in each container. This is the area of the pot where roots seldom penetrate & where root problems begin due to a lack of aeration. From this we can draw the conclusion that: Tall growing containers are a superior choice over squat containers when using the same soil mix. The reason: The level of the PWT will be the same in each container, with the taller container providing more usable, air holding soil above the PWT. Physiology dictates that plants must be able to take in air at the roots in order to complete transpiration and photosynthesis. A given volume of large soil particles have less overall surface area in comparison to the same volume of small particles and therefore less overall adhesive attraction to water. So, in soils with large particles, GFP more readily overcomes capillary attraction. They drain better. We all know this, but the reason, often unclear, is that the PWT is lower in coarse soils than in fine soils. The key to good drainage is size and uniformity of soil particles. Large particles mixed with small particles will not improve drainage because the smaller particles fit between the large, increasing surface area which increases the capillary attraction and thus the water holding potential. Water and air cannot occupy the same space at the same time. Contrary to what some hold to be true, sand does not improve drainage. Pumice (aka lava rock), or one of the hi-fired clay products like Turface are good additives which help promote drainage and porosity because of their irregular shape. Now to the main point: When we use a coarse drainage layer under our soil, it does not improve drainage. It does conserve on the volume of soil required to fill a pot and it makes the pot lighter. When we employ this exercise in an attempt to improve drainage, what we are actually doing is moving the level of the PWT higher in the pot. This reduces available soil for roots to colonize, reduces total usable pot space, and limits potential for beneficial gas exchange. Containers with uniform soil particle size from top of container to bottom will yield better drainage and have a lower PWT than containers with drainage layers. The coarser the drainage layer, the more detrimental to drainage it is because water is more (for lack of a better scientific word) reluctant to make the downward transition because the capillary pull of the soil above the drainage layer is stronger than the GFP. The reason for this is there is far more surface area in the soil for water to be attracted to than there is in the drainage layer. I know this goes against what most have thought to be true, but the principle is scientifically sound, and experiments have shown it as so. Many nurserymen are now employing the pot-in-pot or the pot-in-trench method of growing to capitalize on the science. If you discover you need to increase drainage, insert a wick into the pot & allow it to extend from the PWT to several inches below the bottom of the pot. This will successfully eliminate the PWT & give your plants much more soil to grow in as well as allow more, much needed air to the roots. Uniform size particles of fir, hemlock or pine bark are excellent as the primary component of your soils. The lignin contained in bark keeps it rigid and the rigidity provides air-holding pockets in the root zone far longer than peat or compost mixes that rapidly break down to a soup-like consistency. Bark also contains suberin, a lipid sometimes referred to as natureÂs preservative. Suberin is what slows the decomposition of bark-based soils. It contains highly varied hydrocarbon chains and the microorganisms that turn peat to soup have great difficulty cleaving these chains. In simple terms: Plants that expire because of drainage problems either die of thirst because the roots have rotted and can no longer take up water, or they starve to death because they cannot obtain sufficient air at the root zone for the respiratory or photosynthetic processes. To confirm the existence of the PWT and the effectiveness of using a wick to remove it, try this experiment: Fill a soft drink cup nearly full of garden soil. Add enough water to fill to the top, being sure all soil is saturated. Punch a drain hole in the bottom of the cup & allow to drain. When the drainage stops, insert a wick several inches up into the drain hole . Take note of how much additional water drains. This is water that occupied the PWT before being drained by the wick. A greatly simplified explanation of what occurs is: The wick "fools" the water into thinking the pot is deeper, so water begins to move downward seeking the "new" bottom of the pot, pulling the rest of the PWT along with it. Having applied these principles in the culture of my containerized plants, both indoors and out, for many years, the methodology I have adopted has shown to be effective and of great benefit to them. I use many amendments when building my soils, but the basic building process starts with screened bark and perlite. Peat usually plays a very minor role in my container soils because it breaks down rapidly and when it does, it impedes drainage.
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Gill: He was telling the truth that they are hardy in Britain-under the right circumstance like being planted near the foundation in full sun. I think that your best chances for success are in doing that with the Sabal Minors as planting them elsewhere they will not get enough heat during the summer to store up enough sugar and carbohydrates to get through what will seem to them to be an extended cool/cold season compared to the SE USA. Our palm planting friends in the Pacific Northwest have similar challenges with Sabal Minor because of the cooler summer. Excellent conclusion on putting them outside in pots as it gets them more used to the local weather and they can stay outside as long as it doesn't get much below 25F even as seedlings in pots. I too am running out of space for my palms which last count was 46 in the ground in my yard (garden). I plan on giving lots of them away to friends and family this Spring. Trachyhead: This is always a rollercoaster time of the year in the South as one day it could be almost 80F and the next it could be 30F with really cold temps overnight. The palms really hate it when it is warm for sometime and WHAM, then the temperature drops like a rock as it seems to shock their system worse than with a gradual cool down over a consistant time frame. Hopefully we will have an easier and warmer March with no last minute snow storms.
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The best suggestion I can give is if you have a basement, plant it against the foundation. It will have a much better chance of survival in my opinion and will need less protection.
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orchiddude
16 years ago
Just take a can of green spray paint and spray it. It will be ok for a while, at least it will be green.
blondboy47
16 years ago
Watergal, is there any reason why you are not providing some sort of protection? It sounds like the palm was just too cold for it to handle. After all, last winter was brutal. Protecion is cheap... so that's right in line with your thinking... and mine! LOL ;)

You've seen how I protect ours. Perhaps you could do something similar. ??? It does take a little extra effort in our zones to have success.

Just a thought...

p.s..... if it's still alive, I personnally wouldn't give up... but I would DEFINATELY protect it with some heat for next winter. It's clearly unhappy and most likely, if still alive, would be killed by another harsh freeze.
watergal
Original Author
16 years ago
blondboy47, mostly because I'm lazy!! But also partly because I've had better luck with my musa basjoo WITHOUT protection than with it, and I was hoping I could get away with the same thing with the palm.

See, with the musa, the first winter I built a cage, stuffed it with stray, covered with plastc, and ended up building a great little winter home for all the neighboring rodents, complete with an all-you-can-eat banana corm buffet. When I took the darn cage down, all there was was an empty depression in the soil, the size and shape of the former corm. So the next year, I said, "Forget that, I'll cut down the frost-bitten banana and canna leaves, lay them on top for mulch, and be done with it." Worked great for the last three winters. One unusally mild winter I ended up with about 18" of pseudostem surviving the winter that way - I was astonished.

Now I realize that rodents probably don't find palms nearly as tasty, but I was hoping that my microclimate was good enough that I could get away with it.

I'll have to go back and reread your posts to see what your methods are. Thanks for the pep talk!

Not
Dave in NoVA • N. Virginia • zone 7A
16 years ago
Watergal,

In our climate it's best to protect 'hardy' palms for the first few (3 or 4) winters. What that amounts to is a favorable microclimate and at least a draping of frost cloth during the coldest weeks of winter and during snow or freezing rain 'events'. If you lean more toward zone 6, you might have to use heat. Minors are pretty tough after about three or four growing seasons. I think a sunnier spot might help it though. This last winter was really tough on all kinds of broadleaf evergreens. By the way, I'm not a big fan of wiltpruf stuff. I think you'd have to reapply every week to be effective.
alex_7b
16 years ago
I think you first must understand that S.minor is not a returning perennial. Nor does it have rhisomes. They're OK to 0F, but below that all bets are off.

The palm needs to reach "critical mass" to do well, otherwise it's starving to death - slowly. The plant should have 5 to 8 healthy leaves.
1) Don't move it, because it will likely die.
2) give it about 1/2 a cup of 10-10-10 fertilizer once a month.
3) Cover it on cold (below 5F) winter nights. Try a string a holiday lights under a blanket with the palm.

Best of Luck
orchiddude
16 years ago
I really think you should just spray paint it green and forget it. You might paint the trunk brown and the leaves green. I hear walmart has cheap spray paint and it works pretty good. You can save money one fertilizer and water also. :-)
alex_7b
16 years ago
S.minor is non-trunking.
topher2006
16 years ago
Sabal minor does grow a trunk although it is never seen because they grow it underground .
Sb,s are native here i have seen them go below 5 degrees and still not be affected some are some aren't it just depends on where they are located all in all they are very hardy but once they do take damage it takes a long time for them to grow fronds again.
watergal
Original Author
16 years ago
Well dang, it's alive. Now I have to deal with it.

About the spray paint - I work as an interior landscaper and another message board reported that last December some stores were selling Norfolk Island Pines that had been spray painted green. Without telling the customer! Tacky!

Thanks for all the good advice. I'll try to take better care of the darn thing. Although by the time it's big enough to look good, I'll be heading to the retirement home!
alex_7b
16 years ago
topher2006,

In z8a, you see 5Âº once every 20 years. In z7a you see it once a winter. In z6b, you see it 5 to 7 times a winter. That's quite a difference.
topher2006
16 years ago
Alex

I think you would be rather surprised how our weather is...
you would also be surprised at the huge minors down here in the south !
steve_nj
16 years ago
Sabal minor will grow well in 7-a if watered, fertilized, winter mulched, and not overshadowed by other plants. A 10" high clump of hosta will noticeably slow down a forking minor(by 50%). Plants are not athletes; they don't thrive on competition. Minors can't compete with basjoos! Needles look better with midday shade, but minors and trachys in 7-a do best when grown hot, sunny, moist, and fertile. Palms do well for me even in clayey builders subsoil and rubble soil at a couple of sites if appropriately fertilized and mulched.

No winter foliage protection on any of these in N.J. all except needle are from seed.

S. minor with flower spikes starting(now 3' spikes)
{{gwi:1135671}}

Trachys, minors, louisianas
{{gwi:1058183}}

20+ yr old needle palm from 2 gallon plant. pic taken in January.
{{gwi:1057738}}

Trachy in May; first flowering-planted out spring 2001
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same plant; closeup of flowers-first flowering of Trachy.
{{gwi:1135674}}
nucci60
16 years ago
hey josh palm crazy, we all admire your new found enthusiasem for palm trees, we all had it. You don't just chuck a palm that was growing in the ground for 3 years. the lady is trying to save the palm.Newbies should listen more and advise less. thats how you learn.
JohnnieB
16 years ago
Hi Watergal--

Dave and Alex have given you very good advice.

This was a cold winter but Sabal minor is tough, so I suspect you plant will make it but this is not generally a fast-growing species. I think they may speed up a bit once they are well-established. My own is probably even more pathetic than yours, and produces about 2 1/2 new leaves every year. More sun would probably help both yours and mine! When they're small it's easy to overlook and neglect them, and let other plants shade them out. Since S. minor is not easy to transplant, a better strategy might be to control your banana and other plants so they don't shade it out.

Eventually they can look quite handsome; these aren't mine, but were photographed in a garden in Alexandria:
watergal
Original Author
16 years ago
Oh, how embarrassing - I was rereading all the great advice and saw on my May 12 post that it said - "Thanks for the pep talk. Not"! I believe my computer shut down with a dead battery before I could finish whatever thought I was typing and I never went back to reread that post! I certainly wasn't trying to be snotty, and I apologize if anyone read it that way.

Anyhow, the new frond has grown about an inch out from the crown. The musas next to it are thriving, and they are so pretty and vigorous that I'm not going to control them enough to keep the shade off of the palm.

My plan is to transplant it , very carefully, ASAP into a sunnier spot and hope for the best. I'll try to do some frost cloth and Xmas lights over the winter too. If it doesn't pull through, I'll be ordering a new one next spring and starting it off in a better location.

Can someone suggest their preferred method of winter mulching, please?

Clayey builder's subsoil? Wow. I can do that!! :)

Pathetic sabal minor - suggestions?

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