This is a great thread. I'm a teacher (though I only do long-term sub jobs right now), and also GT certified and trained. I've also raised two children, one of whom passed all the GT tests as a kindergartner and is now in college. My other child passed a few of the GT tests as a third-grader, but honestly I don't see her as 'gifted.' Part of the problem is that this school district includes achievement tests in the battery of GT tests, which is completely inappropriate, but there it is. And she is an extremely hard-working kid. Anyway, I've always been hugely interested in GT education and absolutely LOVE working with these students. But I'd like to let you in on a couple of dirty little secrets.... The first secret is that there are many teachers, even GT-certified who don't LOVE teaching these kids. In fact, they often appear (to me) to be defensive and ready to shoot down these kids at every opportunity. I think it is difficult for a parent to truly realize this because they aren't in the classroom. But I have witnessed it over and over again.... It's heartbreaking, and I try to intercede when I can, but that isn't always possible. The second 'secret' is about teachers being expected to differentiate instruction for all the levels in the room. It's a joke. Not because the teacher doesn't try. It's just a ludicrous system. It is politically incorrect to group students by ability, and no longer allowed anywhere that I've found. So a typical classroom has students with IQs below 70 and students with IQs above 125, occasionally very far above. Imagine you are trying to teach 25 children something -let's say .... how to knit. Some of your students have been knitting for four years, and some could not tell you what a knitting needle looks like. While you are trying to figure out how to group them, four boys have grabbed needles and are trying to stab each other, two more have grabbed your balls of yarn and tossed them to each other, which has caused them to unravel of course. The girls are yelling at the boys to stop it. Some are crying because they really, really want to learn how to knit. So you finally bring order to the chaos, and figure you can divide them into three groups, which does not truly correlate to the levels in the room, but is the best you can do. You truly need the entire time with each one of the groups. But you only have 1/3 of the time with each of course. And what do you suppose the other two groups are doing while you are working with one? You have given them some books about knitting to keep them occupied, but they are old and have only black and white photos so that isn't terribly successful. So you start with the least experienced group because they need the most time. After you spend ten minutes with the first group, you will barely have begun your session with the second group before a few students from the first group come running over with problems. And then that happens again. So the second group's instruction takes twice as long as it should because of the interruptions. And since the third group's time was used for the second group, suddenly, there's the bell! Guess which group didn't get attended to AGAIN?!?!? You may remember that I was fairly strong-minded in the original post on this subject -and felt you needed to think about removing your daughter from a toxic environment. If she wants to be at this school and the good outweighs the bad, okay. But from the sounds of it, her educational needs are not being met. Which might be okay if you or she are supplementing them at home. The way I see it, there are two types of needs for these kids. The first set of needs is what she needs to get into a college where she will hopefully truly have her abilities matched to her environment. And the second set of needs is what she needs to feed her hungry brain. The first set of needs could be covered in one year rather than four for most of these kids. When the information is drawn out over four years, boredom and frustration set in, and many GT kids simply begin to tune out. Some lose all of their enthusiasm and interest in learning and begin to fail. And then they can't get into the colleges where they might truly flourish for the first time. As I used to tell my son, don't kid yourself -there are some extremely bright people who never made it to college. There is a whole group of gifted dropouts, mostly boys, who didn't get the first set of needs met. And Anele -it sounds to me as if your daughter IS gifted. The sheer fact that she is interested in reading what you describe is a give away. I hope I haven't offended any one here -I am passionate about the short shrift these very top students are getting in the K-12 system, all over the nation. It is a huge loss to them, and a huge loss to our country. It's mind-boggling to me that we put forth so much time, money and energy to the first-string on the football team, but not to the academic team. Okay, stepping down off the soapbox now....

At our school each teacher has their own method that is basically keeping track of behavior. One second grade teacher sends home a paper each day with either a green, yellow or red stamp on it. Very similar to your son's teacher. Some use a bulletin board in the room where the entire class either receives or loses points based on individual behavior and behavior as a class. Some teachers use marbles or blocks. They all use something like this. Most of the kids are good kids. There are some kids who do have behavioral problems that are mainstreamed, but the teachers do not subtract points for their behavior (the feeling it would be unfair to the other children since they cannot control their behavior). I have never thought it was a bad thing. My son is in high school now, and yes, even though every one of his teachers would tell me he is a joy to have in class, even he lost the occasional point. We would just sit down and talk about what happened. Once he understood that the teacher was not angry at him he was fine with it. A friend of mine had more problems getting her son to relax about it, but he brought home a lot of red stamps early in the year before he started to settle down.

"I feel for your SD because it must be crushing to have to relearn all over again that her mom does not care to be involved in her life. It seems that SDs will always give the BM the benefit of the doubt and will forgive and think they might actually come through this time, so it is like a fresh cut each time. SD wants BM to be if not involved at least more interested, and in our case, SD does not know where her rage comes from, but I know it is from not getting the attention from the one person she wants it from the most. I have told DH, I am here - I am the one doing the raising, disciplining, loving (as hard as that can be sometimes), but it does not matter because she needs her mom. Let me clarify, she needs who she wants her mom to be. Her mom talks a good game to SD but getting her to follow through is difficult." EXACTLY!!! Thank you mama22 for sharing. Sylvia~ DH & BM shared 50/50 custody without a court order until SD was in 2nd grade. During that year, BM threatened DH for the umpteenth time that she was going to take SD away & not let him see her because he didn't do what she wanted. I take the blame in sharing my experience in family law... I told him he has RIGHTS but without a court order, she very well could take SD & he had nothing to say he has a right to see her. So, after the third time she threatened him with that, he filed to get his rights on paper. She immediately filed for full custody & child support. (He didn't file anything for child support because if they both have 50/50, they are each supporting her the same... but the issue of support was brought by BM initially) She spent the duration of the battle (about 6 months) telling SD how "daddy is trying to take you away from me" and reassuring her that she won't let that happen. She tried to manipulate the therapist, got SD to tell the therapist that she really wanted to just live with BM... but then SD had no explanation of why. Then three weeks after their trial & DH getting his court order for 50/50, BM moved during DH's week & kinda dropped SD in his lap saying she couldn't take SD with her so she's gonna let him have her "temporarily" and that devastated SD. Within a few months, SD was telling classmates she was moving with BM & saying her goodbyes. BM was telling her how we took her away but that she was going to get her & she was going to go live there with BM. It was all lies. During the first year, BM canceled weekends which only made SD more emotionally upset. We would make plans to do fun stuff to keep her mind off it, but SD would spend the whole time talking about "if my mom was here ______" and though she was in counseling, she refused to open up. Instead, she said what she thought everyone wanted to hear. She got bad about lying to her second counselor, pretending everything in the world was fine... she doesn't NEED counseling. But, all along, BM has been the one keeping it alive. When she would come get SD, she would always (yes, every time) show up hours early & sign her out of school early. SD wasn't doing real well to begin with because of her emotional stuff dealing with BM moving away so suddenly. Finally DH told her she had to let SD finish the day in school because she is falling behind & needs to be there as much as possible. It wasn't convenient for BM to wait around so that's when BM started sending grandma to get her. That was three years ago. DH took BM to court a year later asking that only BM may pick up SD. Grandma was picking her up & taking her to BM (sometimes keeping her instead too) but BM was not giving her much attention, which caused the emotional problems to get worse... so DH figured if he got an order forcing BM to come get her, she would either drive up to get her (showing she cared) or cancel more time, which was kinda what we were hoping. We did not want to ask the court to cut off BM's time because all along, BM has been feeding SD lies that we are just trying to remove her from the picture & that would have seemed true if he tried to cut off BM's time. We've tried involving her in activities so she would rather be here than with BM... none of it has worked. BM has insisted all along, SD will eventually live there. I think SD stopped trying in school because she figured it doesn't matter because she's going to be leaving to go live with mom anyway. As long as BM continues to feed SD lies & false hope with promises, and as long as SD believes (or wants to believe) BM will follow through, it feels as if we are stuck. It seems like SD knows her mom is full of it, but she's not ready to admit it or face it. I think it has been a very slow process but seeing mom have another baby that not only gets to live with her, but since the baby is the string to holding on to the BF, BM appears to dote on him to SD (plus babies need all the attention too). Personally, I think BM schleps him off on others most of the time but doesn't want us to know that so she dotes on him around SD, which only makes things harder for her because she has struggled for years to get mom to pay attention to her & her mom, in trying to show us what a happy family she has with BF & baby, it's probably a knife through SD's heart each time. SD is realizing that BM is probably never going to seek custody of her and have her live there, especially now that they had to move from a fairly huge 4 bedroom house to a 2 bedroom mobile home. and Friday, SD saw that mom could care less what happens to her as far as school goes. I think SD knows that she won't be living with BM next year & BM says "I don't care if she has to repeat 6th grade again!" I mean, I don't always get along well with her & I do come across as harsh sometimes, but I care what happens to her. I think it's important for her to have an education & the biggest reason I am in favor of holding her back is because DH told her that if things don't improve, and if she keeps getting F's in multiple classes, he would have to hold her back because it indicates she is not ready to do more advanced work. But we don't WANT to see her held back, we want to see her work habits get better because each year, the assignments get harder. The bottom line is DH said it will happen if she continues to lie about finishing or turning in her work. She just admitted that she goes to a morning tutor class where she's supposed to bring questions about math & get an understanding so she can improve, she admitted she goes to the class & just sits there. Well, we all have been getting up an hour early twice a week for her to go so she can get help understanding math but her grade actually went down since she started it. We understand she has problems but she also needs to be at least trying, but she's been giving lip service and holding her back is a last resort. BM didn't want to discuss options to help her... so seeing her mom has an "I don't care" attitude, I'm getting hopeful she is going to come around. I saw something in her face I had never seen before and it just broke my heart. Another reason I think she and I have not been able to get along is that I think she knows that I don't believe or buy into her BS... she knows that I know what her mom is all about. I'm sure she knows much better because she is behind the scenes with her mom & hears her mom lying about stuff she knows about. She's now getting to the age where she's figuring out that mom lies to her the way she lies to everyone else. But, by no means have we been dragging BM into SD's life. Personally I think SD would be better off if BM would either step up or step off.. but this constant roller coaster she keeps her on is so hard on her. I don't know if that dynamic can be changed as long as SD fantasizes about living with her mom & BM keeps the dream alive with empty promises. We cannot financially afford to instigate a court proceeding to limit BM's contact, although it has been suggested that he seek supervised visits because of how BM discusses everything with SD. Me personally, I have been so frustrated I have welcomed the thought of SD going to live with her mom. AT least then she would see that it's not the fantasy that she has drummed up in her head. BM is focused on the new baby & trying to salvage her relationship with BF. I think deep down, SD knows it but still fantasizes that it would be different if she just lived there. The worse part in SD's situation is that it's such a long heartbreaking process to go through... and she may never actually give up on the fantasy. We can only hope.

From the comic pages: Ruff Farley Odie Otto Daisy Rover None are food items. Those folks got it wrong.