Ada,

Thank you for passing that info. on. I knew about the problem with inhalation, but didn't realize it could dry out an animals coat. I haven't had to use anything on my animals yet.

I do know that there is a Neem shampoo for dogs. You can get it at the Health Food Center on Pennsylvania Street and 240 in OKC. I love that place, a lot of ppl refer to it as the "health food heaven". They have EVERYTHING in that store. The neem shampoo does kill fleas that are on the animal at present time, but probably doesn't deter them long term. I don't know how effective it would be on ticks. The neem shampoo was fairly drying on the dogs skin too. I used "food grade" neem oil,(from the Health Food Center) diluted it down, and left it on my dog before, and didn't have any problems with fleas after that. Did your vet have any recommendations? I am very interested in holistic medicine, and would like to find a holistic vet, if you have time, please email with your vets name, and where he/she is located. There is a website that I have ordered some holistic pet stuff from, I will try to figure out what it is and post it tomorrow. I am limping by with both of my computers down, so bare with me, I am having to use my DH's laptop when he gets home in the evenings. Sheri

Ada,

Thanks for passing on the info for those who may not be aware of it. Nothing your vet said was new to me, as the side effects of DE are well-known. I'd still choose to use it if needed, though.

I don't use DE on my animal's skin, but do treat the ground. (And I know people who dust the dogs with Sevin dust and I'd never do that either.)And, yes, I knew it could dry them out, but that's still not as bad as the side effects from many of the chemicals used to treat pets for fleas and ticks. I am always careful not to inhale it when applying it, and have used DE for many years with no problem. (I don't apply it when the wind is blowing hard either.)

When you mix it with water and apply it, the water dries pretty quickly, but I've never noticed that the residue lifts and becomes airborne. It seems to adhere to whatever you've sprayed it on.

I wash my dogs with Dr. Bronner's Peppermint Soap, which I buy at a health food store, and it seems to keep the pests off of them for the most part. They never have fleas, and only get ticks on them if they run off and run wild through the woods. We don't have any ticks in our yard or pastures, for which I guess I have to give the guineas credit. One year--maybe our first or second year here--we did have a flea and tick problem. I bathed our dogs with peppermint soap and dipped them with Cedarcide cedar-based dip, and that took care of the pests. The dogs smelled pretty good too--the combination of peppermint and cedar was better than their normal "dog" smell. Sometimes I use a pet shampoo with orange oil in it, but that seems drying as well, so I don't use it often.

Sheri, we had a lot of trouble with our admittedly-old computer last year, and eventually got a new desktop AND a laptop. I am now addicted to the laptop!!! I hardly ever use the desktop any more.

Dawn

Sheri,

I love that health food store too! I'm from the Pacific Northwest originally and am used to going into Portland with it's vast (and superficial) shopping, but I think that the Health Food Center is probably the best nutrition center I've seen. Another good one is Dodson's in Norman...he doesn't stock as much, but his prices are great.

We take our four-legged friends to Mustang Animal Clinic in Mustang, OK. Ask specifically for Nita McNeil. The number there is 405-376-4556. She is the main holistic vet and is absolutely fabulous with alternative medicine. My family has been "into" holistic medicine for nearly 20 years. I haven't been to a conventional-medicine physician in over 12 years. We've had enough exposure to alternative medicine (my own naturopath was the president of the association) to know that Dr. McNeil is absolutely top-notch. Moreover, we've taken enough dogs to her (and so have friends) to see her be able to help out in situations that seem hopeless.

That's why I took her word on using DE. She's supports the use of topical ointments to prevent ticks simply because it's better than the alternative. I've had two dogs come close to death from both heartworm and a tick-related disorder. Once you've been through that, it's pretty hard to think about not putting them on the ointment, especially in the area we live. We feed organic food (actually, the Petco in Norman, by Target, has a great section of organic food...organix is our top choice) and extra support for the immune system as needed. Unfortunately, the area in which we live has a big tick and heartworm problem. We've got other dogs all around us, and their two-legged friends don't keep them tick and flea free, so it's fairly impossible to avoid chemicals. We do bathe them in Bonner's peppermint soap, which helps a lot, but it's still not enough protection in our area... :-(

It's good to know that you haven't noticed a residue with DE, Dawn. I'll probably give it a try in the part of the yard that is dog-free to see how it works. I'm still taking my vet's advice when it comes to the dog's coats and beds, though. But, so far I've only found one tick on the dogs, and she was a rescue who probably brought it with her (keeping my fingers crossed!)

It's so good to connect with folks who value organic methods and who are constantly seeking more and more alternatives!

Best!
Ada

I have a REALLY big problems with fleas right now. I thought I had a couple weeks b4 applying Frontline again. But, I have 2 cats that are highly allergic to flea bites, not to mention they are in the house.

Do you recommend taking care of the house and yard with something that I don't have to hire an exterminator for? At the same time, I'll be treating the cats as well. Haven't noticed a tick problem, just fleas.

Susan

Thank you so much, Dawn. Most of my house is wood floors and ceramic tile. Only my bedroom and the extra bedroom has carpeting. Most of them are in my back room where the computer is. They don't bother me so much, but when Kenna is here, they like that young, fresh blood.

It is just so expensive to get the Frontline for them (I have three cats) so one treatment for each for 30 days is like $50. I used to let George out a lot, and no fleas here either, but last summer they showed up on the cats from George being outside and bringing them in. I thought there was also some kind of "dip" because some of the Farm Supply stores in Norman used to have a free "dip" day when you could bring your pets in for a dip, but don't know what they used. We used to take our dogs in for that. Don't know that it harmed them. They both lived to old age.

Neighbors behind and to the side of us have dogs, and we have tons of cats that are free roaming or homeless around, too. I know that fleas spread from yard to yard, so even if I treat my yard, it's likely they will reappear. So far, no ticks, knock on wood.

Thank you so much for the info.

Susan

I like this idea of spraying my house with orange oil. I will also get the shampoo for the cats (oh, boy, they will LOVE that).

Thanks, Dawn. I'd get the beneficial nematodes, but they are so expensive.

Susan

Susan,

Orange oil is great for outside, but check the instructions before spraying it inside. If you buy a heavily concentrated form of orange oil, like TKO Orange Oil, it might stain wood or ceramic tile.....or bleach out carpet. I just don't know. Of course, once you dilute it per the bottle dirctions, it isn't highly concentrated any more, but orange oil is VERY strong (which is one reason it is such a great cleaner).

OK, I went to link the TKO Orange Oil website and it says you can use it to remove stains and odors from carpet, so maybe it wouldn't be damaging (which was a concern I had).

By the way, the Orange Oil IS very concentrated, so when you see the price, you'll get "Sticker Shock" big-time! However, once you dilute it down as directed, a little goes a long way. I think the last bottle of Orange Oil that I bought lasted me about 3 years. And the smell is so wonderful! I like cleaning with orange oil because it makes the whole house smell delicions. I think orange oil may smell even better than the Orange Extract used in cooking.....but that's probably because it a concentrate.

There are other orange oils on the market, but I have always felt like TKO is the best. GreenSense markets a citrus oil product too, but I don't remember the name of it. I have the best success finding TKO Orange Oil and similar products at health food/holistic stores or at nurseries that carry a wide variety of organic gardening supplies.

Dawn

Here is a link that might be useful: TKO Orange Oil

Actually, prices aren't too bad, since I was thinking in the MUCH higher range.

I looked at the Order info, but they don't list the Pet Cleaner.

Where have you found it locally (or non-locally), Dawn? Health Food stores? Pet Stores (like PetsMart)?

I read on Dr. Dirt's site that you can actually make your own with oranges. Do you think that would work or not? Have you tried making your own?

Susan

I went to Wal-mart and asked for diatomaceous earth and they just looked at me like I was nuts. I guess I'll have to order it off the 'net. One of the things about shopping in Bartlesville is that you can't get stuff that might be considered "unusual", such as this and Tacky-foot in a spray can. The reason I was looking for DE was because there was a man on one of the news several weeks ago who said he was developing an all-natural, environmentally safe ant killer and diatomaceous earth was mentioned several times as the main ingredient, though he didn't divulge the rest. He and the reporter were actually putting the stuff in their mouths to demonstrate how safe it was.

I wonder if it would be possible to make peppermint soap? I'm attaching a link to a Gardenweb soap-making forum where there is a recipe for bar soap. But I'd rather make the liquid kind, since I've never made soap before, and this looks pretty complicated. I did find a green living website that said you make liquid herbal soap by grating a bar of pure soap (non-detergent) into hot herbal tea, maybe adding some aloe vera, honey and coconut oil. Do you think I could take a bar of Dove soap, grate it and melt it into strong peppermint tea and make a good liquid peppermint soap? Lord knows I have plenty of peppermint to make the tea with.

The orange cleaner sounds like a pretty good option for cleaning and de-greasing. You all are such a wealth of information! Also I have heard that a really good all-natural cleaner is ammonia, but oh, the fumes! That can't be good for your lungs.

Here is a link that might be useful: Soap Making forum

Susan,

I usually find it in the D-FW Metroplex at Whole Foods or Central Market on the same row as cleaning items and pet foods. For a while, you could find TKO Orange Oil at Home Depot or Wal-Mart here in southern OK, but I haven't seen it there the last few years. I also used to get it at Marshall Grain Company in Fort Worth (www.marshallgrain.com, I think).

I've never tried making my own. Too many projects, too little time. I think Dr. Bronner's company now makes an Orange Oil soap too, similar to his Peppermint Soap, but I haven't seen it in stores.

Ilene,

I've made soap before and it is pretty fun and pretty easy. The hardest part was finding the lye and the coconut oil. (This was about 12 to 15 years ago and I finally found the coconut oil at a health food store.) I think you'd probably want to use essential oil, though, to get the peppermint scent as strong as you need it to be. You'd have to brew a really, really, really strong tea otherwise.

Dawn

My sister makes lye soap like crazy, in all different flavors! LOL! She's a person who can do a lot of crafts, but not me, no, not into doing crafts of any kind. I can ask her about it. I know she has to wear a mask and gloves to do the lye.

I wonder if Horn's carries it. Sometimes the privately owned nurseries carry stuff that the big box stores do not. I know I have to get my chicken manure at Horn's cuz nobody else carries it. I'll check with them.

I can also check Lowe's. They carry different things than Home Depot. I think they must have some sort of mutual agreement between them. LOL! I know that they carry different soils, mulches, plants, etc.

Susan

Ada,

Thanks for the vet info. I found my Natural Remedies for Dogs book and wante to list a few options. They also tlk about garlic as a supplement, but I would be careful with the garlic, because I have read many times that garlic as well as onions are not good for dogs. Anyone who reads this PLEASE do not ever give your dogs raisins or grapes, thats the worst thing for them, far more poisonous for them than chocolate. I found that out the hard way, gave my little Boston Terrier some grapes, I almost lost her. This vet also recommends the beneifical nematodes outside, and DE.

Here are some of the products and phone numbers, I searched and found that you can order them on the net. Cloud Nine herbal dip by Halo (800)-426-4256, this one I found on bizrate.com and a few other sites, it was more affordable. Quantum Herbal Products by Earth Animal, they have a website, (800)-348-0398. Flee Free, a liquid flower essence remedy byGreen Hope Farms (603)469-3662. www.greenhopeessences.com cost $9. One of those had the cedar oil it, don't remember which one.

I'll have to check out that other health food store if I ever go to Norman again. My DH and kids hate when I go into the Health Food Center, they usually end up just following me in for some reason. lol. It's like a health food mall compared to any other store.

Dawn,

I am addicted to the laptop too. Both of our laptops are fairly new, I don't know what I did to mine, DH blames me everytime one of them stops working. By the way what does D stand for in DH? I just started typing it, and assume it could be a good word or a bad word, depending on the issue? hehe.

Do you know of a natural remedy for keeping flies and mosquitos off of horses. I found a citronella spray but it also had pyrethrins in it, and I think I remember you saying that the pyrethrins and permrethrins were both toxic?

Hi Sheri,

When ANYTHING breaks at this house, it is always my fault, whether it is the computer, lawnmower, weedeater, tiller, etc. I'll call him at work to tell him that the _______ just quit working or isn't working correctly, and he'll say "What did you do to it?" (In a teasing way, not a mean way!)

The D in DH or DW or DS or DD or DDIL, etc., generally means Dear or Darling Husband, Dear or Darling Wife...or Daughter...or Son....or Daughter-in-Law, etc. OR, if you are angry, it could mean any word you want that starts with a D. (grinning) One of my favorite acronyms that I've seen some of the guys online use in SWMBO. It took me a long time to figure that one out....it means "She Who Must Be Obeyed" (somehow, I don't think my DH would ever refer to me in that way).

Let me think about the fly and mosquito problem on horses. I don't have horses or cows but have plenty of neighbors who do, so I'll ask around.

I used to be a big believer in pyrethrins, but the Dirt Doctor broke me of that years ago. I just heard of a study this weekend linking autism in children to their mother's used of pyrethrin or permethrin dog and cat flea products. It seems autism rates are higher if their mother bathed or dipped a pet with those products during the pregnancy.....one more reason to be careful about what you expose yourself and your family to.

I'll get back to you later on the horse pest issue.

Dawn

The problem with that, though, is we don't usually find out about the use of some of these pesticides until it's too late. Especially with something like pyrethrin which is supposedly natural (derived from plants).

I would be more careful if they knew about a lot of these things b4 we used them for 10 years or so, darn it.

Susan

Susan, I agree. A lot of times it is easy to assume that organic products are "better" or "safer" but that isn't always true. There are tons of so-called organic remedies that I wouldn't touch with a ten-foot pole. Just because something is from organic (natural) sources rather than a chemical or manufactured source doesn't assure us of its' safety.

Some of the once popular organic remedies that are no longer considered safe by many organic experts are rotenone and pyrethrin. I try to go with the mildest solution first....like hand-picking bugs, or releasing bacterial or other pathogens that target or prey upon a specific pest. I also prefer the use of beneficial insects when possible instead of any sort of pesticide, even organic ones. It is very frustrating to rely upon an organic remedy for years and then figure out it isn't all it is cracked up to be.

I remember when I was a kid in the 1960s and everyone used DDT for everything....or Vapam as a soil fumigant (unfortunately it killed EVERYTHING)....or Chlordane for termites.....now they are all banned, along with many other things. It would be great if the risks were understood before we used all these things for years and years and years.

Dawn

Susan,

I know what your saying, it makes me feel so foolish at all of the things I've sprayed on my yard or around my house. I am a huge animal lover, and I get so mad at myself for the things I have put on my dogs, that I had to be so careful not to get on myself. When my dogs saw me with the frontline last time, and took off in a dead run, I finally decided that I am just not going to do this anymore. I have vowed not use anything that is not safe enough for me on them. I may "be forced" to use some poisons on the yard, but not on my dogs anymore.

Dawn,

I get the "what did you do to it" also. Since the latest computer problem, I am being accused of putting off some kind of electrical charge :) yeah right.

I love the SWMBO, I never email my DH but I am feeling an urge to email him real soon. lol.

I just remembered the triple action neem oil that I sprayed around my yard and garden, and maybe on some of my tomato plants, last year, I think it had some time of pyrethrins or permrethrins in it. I am going to have to find an all natural neem with no additives. Well, now I'm wondering about the neem, does anybody know if it is safe too use? I buy the capsules (for human consumption) and make a tea out of it, spray it on the dogs for flea control. Hopefully they wouldn't be selling it for human consumption if not, but then to think that is going to kill fleas, that kind of scares me. ??? I hope I don't end up regretting that later.

Sheri,

Well, I get accused of breaking lawnmowers and weedeaters just by looking at them or touching them. I always tell DH that they break because I am USING them, instead of leaving them sitting in the barn. He does mow and weedeat when he can, which isn't often....between his real job and then his volunteer fire department chief job, he is not at home a lot, so I end up doing a lot of the lawn maintenance. And, I don't mind doing it....but the darned equipment seems to break down a lot. To be fair, it usually DOES break down when I am using it, but I use it about 80% of the time. And, often, after he fixes whatever broke, he then mows or weedeats (as if to protect the precious machine from being touched by me), so the machine doesn't break down for him because it was JUST, fixed! Obviously, the larger the property, the more maintenance it requires, and the more you're using the machines, the more they break down. That's life.

Neem (tea tree) oil is generally recognized as safe and is even found in products like soaps and shampoos sold for use by humans. It has been used for centuries in areas where it grows. If you like Dr. Bronner's soap products, he does have a tea tree soap in both bar and liquid versions. Sometimes I bathe my dogs with the liquid Dr. Bronner's Tea Tree Soap....it soothes their dry, itchy skin.

I've linked a brief paragraph about neem from the dirt doctor's website. He is VERY careful about what products he says to use, so if he trusts a product, I trust it!

Dawn

Here is a link that might be useful: Neem Oil

I do have a small bottle of tea tree oil. Could I put some in a small sprayer mixed with water and spray it on my cats?

Susan

No, don't put tea tree oil anywhere near your cats! It's known for being highly toxic to them. I bought some at the health food store for myself - a shampoo and body lotion because it's supposed to be good for candida - and I used it one night and one of my cats slept on me all night - I had to take him to the vet the next day, he was really, really sick from inhaling it. We had to give him IV fluids and he bounced back, thank god, but he is young. An older cat might not fare so well.

I'm about to try the D/Earth and thank all for the info. I'm a bit upset to learn that Tea Tree is the same as Neem. I had been using the straight Neem oil on my pooch to repel fleas (she's highly allergic), and even though it had an awful smell like rancid meat (which took about 20 minutes to dissipate) it was rather effective. My vet hadn't heard of it so looked it up on the vet site he uses and said it's been suspected of causing liver cancer. So I toss out all my Neem oil products and buy Tea Tree only to find they're the same?!? I'm about to use this D/Earth around the areas most suspect and beyond that, I'm at my wit's end with these #%!!_�**!! fleas!!! Any more ideas??