Josh, the sphagnum is dust, I think it is sphagnum peat moss. today it is a little bit dry and I screened about one gallon unfortunately it has a lot of composted organic materials such as barks, sapwood and organic fibers. The screened sphagnum is so nice it is so spongy I never used this before.

1 gallon of 5.1.1 gritty mix + 1 tablespoon garden lime?
1 gallon of 5.1.1 gritty mix + ? slow-release fertilizer

Caelian

This post was edited by chilliwin on Sun, Jan 13, 13 at 10:54

I don't really measure the Osmocote. I'd say about 1/4 cup (60 ml) per gallon per pot - roughly two gallons. Follow the directions on the bag if any are appropriate.

I don't think the size of the perlite is important. Perhaps that's a good question to ask in the Container forum.

This post was edited by DMForcier on Sun, Jan 13, 13 at 14:50

Very good!
I like the look of the bark that you've screened.
It is helpful to keep the sphagnum moist while you mix the ingredients.

1 Tablespoon Garden Lime per Gallon of soil mix, yes.

For the slow-release, use the amount indicated on the package.

I prefer to add only a light amount of slow-release to start,
and then I take over fertilization with a liquid fertilizer for
the rest of the growing season.

It is possible to produce awesome plants with slow-release by itself, of course -
you just need to add more after a few months.

Josh

Thank you DMForcier and Josh both of you are right the dose is on the box. I was thinking only the forum is my resource :) It says 20g/5l to 20 liter (15x15x100cm) soil.

Now I do not have big enough plants for transplantation in this Al's 5:1:1, but I have prepared this mix for a small container today for a trail, after two weeks I would like to try one plant.

Caelian

This post was edited by chilliwin on Mon, Jan 14, 13 at 8:49

Your mix is looking real good. Keep us updated with how your plants do in the mix.

Mark

Caelian, "5:1:1" and "gritty mix" are two different recipes. ÃÂ ÃÂ Don't mix them up. ÃÂ ..er.. Don't confuse them.

This post was edited by DMForcier on Sun, Jan 13, 13 at 15:21

Mark I'll do update time to time.

Ohh DMForcier, thank you for the correction. I did not know
:(.

Josh the sphagnum is not very moisten it is almost dry.

Should I spray some water on the mixed soil?

I was thinking to wait two weeks but I couldn't so I transplanted very young two plants:)

The plants in the middle has grown in 1 part perlite 1/2 part peat moss and 1/2 part organic Compost.

Thank you all for helping me.

Regards,

Caelian

This post was edited by chilliwin on Mon, Jan 14, 13 at 8:47

Your mix looks very nice, Caelian.

I do moisten the mix as I make it, which helps bind the ingredients together and evenly
distribute the Garden Lime.

These pots are a bit large for these seedlings, and the mix should hold moisture well,
so be sure not to overwater. Pale, yellow plants will be a sure indication. For now,
stick a wooden skewer, dowel, or long toothpick all the way into the pot, and leave it.
Check the stick every couple days to determine if there is moisture in the bottom of the
container. This will help you to keep from overwatering.

Josh

Josh, for the next batch preparation I will moist the sphagnum. Today I did a lot of too young plants transplantation; I replaced the soil with 5.1.1. Before I did not try to understand why you moist the sphagnum for the preparation. I found a bit of lime and slow-release fertilizer at the bottom of the mixing container. The pine bark I used is well moistened so coincidentally it may be a little bit help to bind the ingredients together and evenly distribution of the garden lime. Everything is experimental for me so I will do what is necessary.

Thank you for the tips of monitoring the moisture. I will try to find out a bit smaller containers for the seedlings. Thank you for the advice.

Really I like this 5.1.1 when I touch it I feel it is going to be so good and my plants will love it :). I will update the progress time to time and if I have problems I will request for help here.

Best regards,

Caelian

This post was edited by chilliwin on Mon, Jan 14, 13 at 18:59

Hello everyone,

Al's 5.1.1 Updates.

Thank you for helping me.The 5.1.1 is still doing fine. I have changed some of the over-sized containers for seedlings too.

Josh, I have few questions of 5.1.1.

Is it normal the 5.1.1 shrunk a little bit (small container only) when it is getting dry?

If I did something wrong please give me correction. This container soil is a bit shrunk.

Should I remove the small size ( very small/sand like) pine barks from the 5.1.1?

Should I screen for all these small particles?

I found the pine bark has sand like dust a lot so I am thinking to rinse the barks, however I am not sure it is a good idea or not. I am also thinking to flush water before I mix perlite and sphagnum a kind of cleaning the barks.Please provide me some advice.

The soil aeration is pretty good, the water came out immediately from the drainage hole when I poured a little bit more. Some of the particles are water retentive I think, but I am not sure it is normal or not. According to your advice I use skewers and some of the big containers's skewers are found wet.

Is it normal?

By the way I watered everyday :). I am going to stop watering everyday now.

Wet skewer:

The skewer in this pot is not wet but the green circle is the water mark.

Any help and advice will be very much appreciated.

Regards,

Caelian

This post was edited by chilliwin on Wed, Jan 23, 13 at 10:43

Hey!

Don't water every day ;-) Let the mix dry a bit before watering -
if the skewer is wet, don't water. This mix will hold plenty of moisture.
In the pic with the skewer in the container, the plant looks pale from too much moisture.
Let that container dry out, and see if the green color improves.

Rinsing the bark free of fines is not necessary, but I do like to rinse my Perlite to get
rid of the excess dust before adding it to the bark.

The seedling looks like it didn't germinate well, and something happened to the root.

Josh

Hello Josh, I won't water everyday now :)

I am very slow learner, I am not yet familiar with the 5.1.1. Still I keep learning most of my dark color 5.1.1 soil are heavier (over watered) than the light color. I thought 5.1.1 cannot hold water much.

The pale color plant may be got too much water, you already told me the container is big too. Now I realized that the container size of the seedling is very important. I was thinking to change the container but I think it will be more stressful to the plant so I keep it. In fact I watered a lot, when I saw the dry upper layer of the soil. The skewers I used before were not good too, it never got wet. I changed the new skewers yesterday.

I deleted the last picture seedling I think it is not relevant here. Sometimes my seedling containers fell down and spilled the soil accidentally so this seedling may be one of them I did not put it back properly.

Thanks,

Caelian

This post was edited by chilliwin on Wed, Jan 23, 13 at 11:55

No problem!

The 5-1-1 holds plenty of moisture, indeed :-) But it also holds lots of air, which is important.
Letting the mix dry a bit is essential to strong root-growth - first roots grow, then leaves grow.

Indoors, during the Winter, 5-1-1 could hold moisture for a week (or longer, depending upon
container size). The surface bark of the mix will look dry after just a day or two, and so that is
why we use the skewer in the pot so that our eyes don't fool us ;-)

If you set the big container on a stack of newspaper, that might wick out some excess moisture.

Josh

I did not tell you about my first skewers before :) Have a look:

{{gwi:1140526}}

This skewer is some kinds of water proof, very hard and when we polished it shines like plastic, probably oak tree. It made me fool :) every two days I checked the skewers I found it always same. The one I use right now are very light and absorb water very easily.

Thank you josh.

Caelian

just a quick question is expanded clay a suitable replacement for turface

just a quick question is expanded clay a suitable replacement for turface

Aussie, Josh and Teyo might know better than me.

Josh use Turface and Teyo use expanded clay.

I asked the same question to Josh his answer is:

"Caelian, Leca is very large from what I've seen.
If it were broken into smaller shards and chips, it would work.

Do you have an autoparts store that sells calcined clay for absorbing oils?

Napa auto parts #8822 is an excellent (and more cost effective) substitute for turface."

Teyo's suggestion is cat litter. I am going to use cat litter because Turface is not easy to find here now.

This link may be helpful to you.

http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/pepper/msg0112042712192.html?31

Caelian

Caelian, i hope you don't mind me tagging along on your topic (i'm actually very glad that there is someone else from Europe trying to put together these mixes, we just have to make our own version without american ingredients lol ).

i'm going to put here the pictures of the type of expanded clay i use, since there is no turface and no diatomaceous earth available, we do have pumice but it is much more expensive then this. bonsai growers use this clay to great success, and while exploring my options i have come to the conclusion it is just as good as other calcined clays. maybe it helps someone.
it is produced by a company called Liapor, and sold for plants under the name Floreopor, and for construction and isolation properties under the name Liapor. the difference is that the construction one is usually mostly unbroken pellets, and the plant one is broken/crushed pellets that expose the internal pores better.
i use the smaller liapor granules (1-4mm) for seedlings and larger floreopor broken granules for larger plants (4-8mm).

these are the larger granules, floreopor, or sometimes also called liadrain

this is a comparison side by side of the two types, on the right are the smaller granules, and on the left the larger crushed ones:

these are the smaller granules with the hand as a size reference

and a tree planted in larger crushed granules, floreopor

where i live floreopor (4-8mm) costs 4 euro for a 50l bag, and liapor (1-4mm) costs 9 euro for a 50l bag. there is very little dust in this, i don't sift it, just wash it in a kitchen drainer.

Caelian has posted images of the kitty litter made from DE he found locally, and here is a link explaining how it works, and some reports from all over the world on where there is DE kitty litter available:
http://www.bonsai4me.com/Basics/Basicscatlitter.htm

please understand, not all kitty litter is suitable to be used as a soil replacement, only the types that do not turn to mush when wetted. the advantage is that this type of litter is generally very cheap.

Hi Teyo,
I like to read many different opinions, advice and suggestion. Your posts are very informative and well explained, they are really very useful for me. The idea of creating our own version of container soil with the easily available ingredients is more practical and a good idea :).

The expanded clay in your picture is called here LECACULOR. It is from Sweden these websites are from the bag, http://www.econova.se/ and the distributor is http://weibulls.com/ . The available size is 8-16mm. 16 liter is cost about 7EURO/ $9.

4 EURO for 50l bag is very cheap to compare the price here. It looks good too. Now I do not know are they available here. Since yesterday the cat litter is still my first choice :).

I do not grow bonsai, I have bought one before and the LECACULOR I used is just feeling the gapes as mulch. I removed the soil because it looked too much in the container.

Have a nice day.

Caelian

This post was edited by chilliwin on Thu, Jan 24, 13 at 7:45

thanks for the info Caelian, we have LECA here too, but it is much larger than liapor/floreopor, and it has larger pores (this is what i like the least about it). it is also quite a bit more expensive.
i don't use it either, it would be usable only in hydro culture for me (unless one had no other choice and for instance put leca in a rag or foil and crushed it with a hammer into smaller bits). the 8 mm is the upper limit of particle size for clay i would go with, i am acutally glad that even with 4-8mm bags of floreopor most granules are under 8mm.
only when it comes to the pine bark i don't really care much about size, only that it has low dust and no chunks of sapwood :) i just buy small size rose mulch which happens to fit quite right.

I will ask to the garden centers about these liapor and floreopor.

When I saw it in your picture I thought they are LECA :). May be Liapor/Floreopor are available here with different names.

Caelian

Hello, guys!
Yes, that small-sized granules look just about perfect.
I'm very glad that we have you excellent resources with us.
You will make things much easier for European growers!

Josh

Hi Teyo, I have good news, you inspired me to find good ingredients to "MAKE OUR OWN VERSION" :)). I was looking for "floreopor/liapor" I cannot find it. Then I found this one , please have a look:

{{gwi:1140532}}

I think it is expanded clay you mentioned. I saw it many times before I started container gardening I though it was sand. We use it for snow/ice related problems for our roads/streets.Today I picked up some of them and realized that it is not sand. If it is the one you mentioned then we can have our own version. I'll find out more information.

Thank you again Teyo, you are very resourceful and helpful.

New container gardener,

Caelian

Yes that looks very very much like floreopor :) 99% sure it's the same thing. How much doesit cost over there, just for comparison' sake?
Glad you managed to find that too, you really have a fine choice of soil substitudes now!

For everyone in the USA that is paying high prices for turface from NAPA ($25.00) I just found a good source for DE at Walmart. It's cat litter called "Cat's Pride premium cat litter fresh and clean" 30 pound bag for $5.48 The phone number is on the bag so I called them, very nice people they reassured me it was primarily DE with a non-toxic anti-microbial agent. I wet it froze it and re wet it and it still holds up.
What do you guys think, should I use it or go with NAPA's DE?

Eric

This post was edited by LeafEricson on Fri, Feb 1, 13 at 17:30

Caelian, is it just my computer or are some of your pictures missing?

Eric

Hey, Eric!
Turface is a Profile product, and is very reasonably priced in most places -
$13.65 for 50 pounds. Napa product #8822 is usually priced even lower, or comparably.

Of course, I'm always looking for good ingredients to stockpile ;)

Josh

NAPA told me product "8822 cost $25.00 and the bag weighs 25 pounds thats easy math at a dollar a pound, very expensive considering turface is dumped by the truckload for quality baseball fields and golf courses.

Eric

Teyo, I do not know the price now I have to find it, I hope the price will be reasonable. When I know the price I will let you know. I think you are a seasoned professional gardener so you found all these useful stuffs. Now I found a good substitutes of Turface and the health and life of my plants are in my hands :).

Eric, Josh told me about NAPA and I am not yet found and I give more attention on expanded clay Teyo mentioned before, this expanded clay is very good. Sorry for the pictures I thought it is too much pictures unnecessarily.

New container gardener,
Caelian

Eric, that looks good. Before using it i suggest soaking it in a bucket of water and then rinsing with more water to remove that anti microbial agent. That thing would kill any bad bacteria in your soil but it would kill the beneficial ones too, and you don't want that, rather it would be good to establish a population of beneficials enough to outcompete the harmfull ones. Other than that, it looks like a fine component, and the price is great too!

Caelian, thanks for the compliments, i'm not that seasoned a gardener but i read and learn as much as i can. Glad to be able to help a fellow eu gardener ;) one other thing, i don't know how close Danish and Finnish people are, but there is a great chilli fanatic in Finland who uses all sorts of advanced growing methods in your climate conditions. i suggest you take a peak at his site and forum, i'm sure you'll find some more local information and ideas for you: http://fatalii.net/growing/
I really love his site, always learn something new there :)

Caelian I always enjoy your pictures. I am very familiar with expanded clay. I use it for hydroponics just wanted to start using turface for the extra benefit that it kills bugs.
teyo that's what I'm afraid of killing the beneficial bacteria too. I always add mycorrhizal inoculant to my mixes, even to my hydroponic resevoir with amazing results. I wonder if I could leach the anti-microbial agent out of the DE if it's even worth the trouble.

Eric

Oooh great someone with hydroponic experience! I'm planning on setting up a tray with an ebb and flow system this year for thefirst time, and a few bubbleponics buckets. So your microherd survives fine in the nutrient solution? How do you handle summer temperatures? I'm worried about my tank heating up too much, and loosing too much evaporation if my tray is open. Any advice, should i rather try plastic pipes with holes in them?
Sorry for so many questions, but hydro is so fascinating and my next big obsession i think :D

As for DE, i'd just dunk it in a bucket if water and leave for a few days, but would change water each day. It should rinse out anything. I used a kind of kitty litter before while experimenting that wasn't DE but some crappy sort of clay (it was more or less stable) that was perfumed heavily and had some colored granules too.I'd rinse it like that and the stinky and colored stuff would wash away fine. The plants didn't mind one bit. Later i ditched that for the expanded clay which i now use.

Oh yes teyo lots of hydro experience! I always had problems with root rot in all the systems until I found out about mycorrhizal inoculants. Yes they thrive in the reservoir. I used to use expensive big name brands like Piranha and then I found a granular inoculant that farmers use for soil based growing. It works just the same because it has the same mycorrhizae as the big hydro companys charge you so much for. They like to make hydroponics as costly and confusing as possible. It doesn�t need to be, I've seen very inexpensive homemade grows that function just the same if not better. Funny.. on youtube one lady grew medicinal using just her urine in DWC (bubbleponics) what a way to save money hu? Whatever floats your boat:)
I currently like to use dutch buckets and a NFT system made from PVC pipes. I've tried it all from areoponics to aquaponics. I do like rockwool slab but it's too costly to be economical. You can even grow plants out of a bale of hay or crushed up brick. Many many different methods it's finding one that's best for you.
Summer temps are not too much of a problem. Keep the reservoir covered with mylar or better yet my favorite sun reflectors that you put in your car windshield work the best. I buy them all up at my local dollar store.

Eric

Here is a picture of an NFT system that I use for smaller leaf lettuce. Left open and reservoir put away for the winter so no ice will crack anything.

Eric, it is nice to know you enjoy the pictures.

Teyo, the fatalli.net's bonsai chili plants are so beautiful, I am very surprised to see their skills. I will try to get more information from there that's useful here.

Thank you all.

New container gardener,

Caelian

Caelian sorry I think I got a little off your topic on this thread. but still the 5-1-1 mix is hydroponic since it is a mix containing no soil, so I'm kind of with you there:)
I'll start a new thead in respect to you if anyone wants to talk more about hydroponics.

Eric

Yes please Eric, i'd love to hear more! So far i'm still leaning towards an ebb and flow, it somehow looks easier to set up and maintain for bigger plants like chillies. Also, very valuable info about mycorrhizae, do you use nutrients like that too? From big agro labels i mean. I don't have access to hydro shops, the two that exist here are very new and extremely expensive. But we do have some very good quality water soluble ferts used for normal agriculture, which have proven great to me so far, and are available in almost any formulation you can think of.
Please if you open another topic just copy my post there to answer :)

Caelian, apologies for stealing your topic (again :)) ), glad you like fatalii's site ;) he has some sick hydro chillies growing!

Eric, no problems, it is very interesting. Do not feel sorry please. I got my answers that's the important things for me, this thread is not belonged to me it belongs to the forum. If I need more help then I request for help again. (I missed your post before and so I edited this post).

Teyo, you are not stealing the topic :)but you elaborate the topic that's I like. I never think anyone stealing a topic. I started and we share together, we elaborate the topic together, someone started I shared too. One person one topic :( I do not like it, I like we all share and elaboration, whoever started he or she can ask the questions if he or she cannot get her or his answers.

Fatalii dot net forum is in Finnish it is very different from Danish. When I read the forum I used Google translation. I'll try to communicate with the forum members there they might knew a lot of useful things to use here too.

I have a question to you, Josh, Eric and others whoever can help me. I got a lot of small pine bark particles after I screened the pine bark with two different sieves so should I remove it or should I use it just like soil conditioner? Have a look.

You made me think something about hijacking other people's topic :). If I hijacked someone's topic before unintentionally so I honestly convey my apology for that.

Thank you all.

New container gardener,

Caelian

This post was edited by chilliwin on Sat, Feb 2, 13 at 13:21

Caelian
Rat's I just stared a new topic "Hydroponic Peppers"
I didn't know you felt that way; I feel the same just didn't want to impose on your thread. Oh well..
The Fatalii site is not in Finnish for me, guess it depends on your computer settings.
The small pine bark particles look like they would be a good soil conditioner to me.

Eric

Eric, that must be new.
Folks have reported paying $6 - $8 for 40 pound bags of Napa DE.
Shoot, guess that's a thing o' the past.

Josh

Fatalii's guide to growing bonsai peppers is the site that got me started with overwintering
peppers as houseplants. An incredible site, very illustrative.

Josh

greenman28 Really? I've got to go to a different NAPA store. I'm a mechanic and I used to deal with this store; maybe he remembers all the times I was ticked off at them for sending me the wrong part and defective parts. So he could be trying to skrew me.

Eric

Eric, I saw the new thread :).

If it is not very expensive and complicated then I would like to try with one nice hydroponic ghost pepper. It should be the center of attraction in my room.

You are right about the fatalii.net when I log in normally without username I got the English version and if i log in with my user name then the forum changed to Finnish. I think I may made mistake when I chose the language. Thank you for the information.

New container gardener,
Caelian

Caelian if you need help let me know I'll do my best. You already have inert mediums that you can use (clay pebbles, perlite) so your half way there and you are already growing simple hydroponics with the 5-1-1 mix your just not using a nutrient solution because you put in fertilizer pellets.

Eric

Eric I will request help, if I do something new or have problems, thank you.

New container gardener,
Caelian

The Al's 5:1:1 is wining :)).

For the comparison purpose I uploaded the picture again.

The middle seedling's (2) soil is 1 part perlite, 0.5 peat moss and 0.5 compost and the rest are 5:1:1.

All these three seedlings were re-potted in small size containers on the same day. The present conditions of the seedlings. The (2) is not in the 5:1:1 and the color is pale and the rest of the seedlings are in 5:1:1 and the color are dark green.

Still I keep learning Al's 5:1:1.

New container gardener,

Caelian

This post was edited by chilliwin on Wed, Feb 6, 13 at 16:14

Really sorry for multiple posts I have some editing problems.

New container gardener,

Caelian

This post was edited by chilliwin on Wed, Feb 6, 13 at 16:19

This is great, Caelian!

Josh

Hi Josh,

I am really happy with Tapla Al's 5:1:1. Still I keep learning to use 5:1:1 effectively.

Thank you for helping me.

New container gardener,

Caelian

My pleasure!

By the way, I received the nice message from you in my e-mail, but there was no way
to reply to you (your profile isn't set to receive replies), so I will say thank you here :-)

Josh

Hi Teyo,
Expanded clay we talked about before is not available in Denmark for personal use. The DSB Danish Transport department buy this expanded clay from Sweden. I talked with DSB employees they advised me to buy it from Sweden just like they do. They call it "sand sne = sand snow"

For the Al's 5:1:1 proper screening is very important, my opinion is based on my experiences.

These sapwood has no problems for me :

{{gwi:1140536}}

But this one has real problem, it is water retentive and when it dried the size getting smaller that shrunk the soil . Really I hate it.

{{gwi:1140537}}

These pine bark fine is after multiple screening it works so good for me:
{{gwi:1140538}}

I made a second batch with it, I love it. It is so good for the plant. I really respect Tapla and Josh's efforts to help us to have a good potting soil.

Have a nice weekend everyone :)

Caelian