They're everywhere in my yard. They started coming out in numbers over the past few days.

Yes, I saw them last night. They're baaaack!

Saw one last night....

Cady: Do your chickens (or ducks and geese, whatever you have) eat them? Assuming they can reach them...

Claire

Yes...all over my yard today. I hate to think what the spring will be like.

:-(
Adam

Claire, they're here in Falmouth now, they just appeared in the last couple of days. I don't have chickens or ducks, but my dog sure likes to snap them up.

I saw the first moths last night. Only a few, so far. Not the "snow storm" I remember from last Nov/Dec. Maybe that starts tonight. Gross. and sad.

Is there any way to stop them? Or is it too late in the season for treatment?

Claire,
By night, the moths are all over the place. But they hide during daytime, and I (and the chickens) don't see a single one.

Bats are my only hope... but they are hibernating. Although with the wacky warm weather, I saw a frog sitting on the edge of the pond this morning!

fbot: According to the fact sheet, it's too late in the year now now for any effective treatment.

They put sticky bands around trees to catch the wingless female moths who have to shinny up the trunk. They climb up to mate and then lay eggs on branches. However, if there's a lot of them, the sticky band gets saturated with moths and the rest just crawl over the stuck ones.

...And unless there are only a few trees in your neighborhood, you can't put sticky bands around all of them.

The next possibility is to kill the eggs with horticultural oil or spinosad, but you need prolonged warmish periods to apply horticultural oil, which means next spring.

...And unless there are only a few trees in your neighborhood, you can't spray horticultural oil on all of them.

...And when the caterpillars emerge, they swing from tree to tree on little lianas like Tarzan, so they're awfully hard to treat with B.T.

It's extremely discouraging, which is why I keep hoping that some sort of indigenous biological control will emerge, or that the birds (and DtD's admirable dog) will gorge on them.

I'm looking out the window watching various birds visit the feeder which is a big one that largish birds like blue jays, cardinals and grackles can use. I also spread seed on the ground around the feeder for the mourning doves and anyone else that wants to eat there. I sit here willing the birds to stay and look around for moths popping out of the ground.

I also root for skunks and bats.

It just occurred to me that woodpeckers might help since they love to feed on tree trunks. I've got suet out for them (there's a northern flicker and a woodpecker regular).

Anything that helps.

Claire

>...And when the caterpillars emerge, they swing from tree to tree on little lianas like Tarzan, so they're awfully hard to treat with B.T.

BT is the one biological control that is NOT impaired by the moths' powers of locomotion! Their ability to "fly" is the down-side of horticultural oils and sticky bands; you can smother the eggs with oil or keep the newly-hatched caterpillars from climbing a specific tree with sticky bands, but free-feeding "adult" caterpillars will still "repel in" and devour that tree.

Not so with BT. It doesn't matter where the WM caterpillars come from, when they eat those treated leaves, they stop eating immediately, and die within a few days. It is disconcerting to see them looking perfectly healthy the day or 2 after you have sprayed, but they're actually dying and no longer doing any damage.

Last year I sprayed BT on a few susceptible and/or young trees, about once a week, starting when I first saw damage in spring. I treated a young sweetgum, a kousa dogwood, lots of blueberry bushes, roses, and, half-heartedly, some big old flowering cherries.

I ignored the big maples, which I just couldn't reach with my sprayer (and I could not have afforded enought BT for them, and I hate those maples anyway). I think it worked very well.

The only down side was the disgusting mess (and stench) under the old cherry trees - they were too big for me to do a good job. I may try banding or hort oil on those this year.

Ah, I shot from the hip without thinking through what I was saying. Not the first time, and probably won't be the last.

DtD - you are absolutely correct that no matter how high or far Tarzan swings, if he lands on and eats a BT treated leaf he dies. What I should have said was that since you can't reasonably treat every tree, particularly tall ones, there will always be a population of caterpillars that will avoid the poison dinner and go off to create more damage. And probably live to adult moth-hood and lay more eggs.

Cady - I had always assumed that the adult winter moths were visible during the daytime as well as night since last year I saw a horde of them in daylight hours. If I'm wrong, then I'll have to change a few assumptions.

My main reason for posting is to sound a warning and get good information out to people who need it. If my information is wrong, I have no problem with being corrected.

Claire

I swear...at night, the place is a cloud of fluttering, swarming, horny males and fat, placid females waiting for love. :) And in the daytime, they vanish! Maybe I should rake the leaves. They are likely crawling under those, and I haven't gotten around to fall cleanup yet.

Cady:

Whew! Torrid happenings on the North Shore! Nothing like that here in Puritan country.

I was afraid I might be missing something, but I realized that I check several times every night to make sure the stars and moon are still around, and the best view is through a bunch of oak trees. Nothing fluttering around. Even last night, when the rain stopped, the stars were out and no moths.

That's a very good question - where do they go during the day time? The female moths can't fly so they'd either have to stay on the trees or drop to the ground. Supposedly they don't live long after mating. Maybe they drop dead (with a smile on their faces? Do moths have faces?) and get eaten.

I'm hoping the December Landscape Message comes out soon with some new information.

Claire

Claire,
But I'm in Puritan Country Ground Zero -- Salem. lol

The flightless females live longer than males since they have to mate successfully and lay the eggs. It makes sense to postulate that they drop to the ground and hide in the leaves during the day. Where the boys go, however, I have no idea.

But, I've noticed that the ones that get in my house (easy to do since I constantly go out the back door into the garden, where the moths swarm -- some get in past me, or stick to my clothes), usually camp out on the ceiling or walls of the sunroom, quietly waiting out the day.

Maybe outside, they rest on the undersides of branches or sides of trees where they camoflauge with bark.

We have them in Rhode Island, too! Just noticed them this week. Yuck! This is going to be an expensive treatment this spring. Which trees were most damaged for you? I know the maples are targeted, and fruit trees, but what about dogwoods, etc? I'm just wondering where I should focus. Thanks! and good luck to everyone.

Yikes! I never noticed in past yrs, but yesterday afternoon when I got home (Newton MA), I spotted a dozen of these moths on my garage walls. I swatted them dead immediately. Last night saw some fluttering around the security light, and a couple got inside the entryway. So what is it that we should do in the spring to battle this? When do we start and what treatment? Anything we can do now except swatting? I recall this spring all my lilacs were covered with tiny caterpillars and I had to throw all the blooms away.
Thanks!

FYI:

There was a thread last spring into summer talking about the caterpillars.

They also mention the introduction in Hingham of a parasitic fly that has worked well in Canada. Anybody know if this was successful?

Claire

Here is a link that might be useful: More discussion

So what do we bring in the kill the parasitic fly once it has killed all of the winter moths?

This kind of biological control is supposedly not absolute - it just gets the system back into balance. A low level of moths and a low level of parasites.

The danger, of course, is that the parasitic fly might decide that the natives are tastier.

In this case, it sounds like it hasn't been an issue in Canada.

Claire

Since I haven't seen moths swarming around my outdoor lights at this time of year, I guess they haven't made it this far north, yet.

OK, so they come out in the late fall, and, according to the fact sheet, the males are strongly attracted to lights at night. If this is so, then it would seem that a bug zapper would be an excellent tool for controlling them. Being indiscriminate killers, I don't use them, but at this time of year I can't think of any other insect critter that would be out at night, so the kills should be limited to the male winter months. Or, am I missing something here?

The state will be releasing more and more of the parisitic fly over the next few years. Last May was the first release-in Hingham. It will take up to 5 years for the fly population to increase enough to bring the winter moth population down to "background levels". The same thing has been done successfully in Washington and Oregon, as well as Nova Scotia. There has been no documented problem with the fly as it relates to native bugs. Apparently, this fly will only go for winter moth catepillars. I had not seen the moths until the last mild spell last week. I think the bext thing possible to keep the catepillar population down next spring will be for snow and cold to persist for the rest of the winter. This will eliminate opportunities for mating--which only happens during mild evenings this time of year. It is notworthy that despite the harsh winters (Jan-Feb) overall that we have exprienced in recent years, December has been very mild since 2001, which was a near record warm December. This has created perfect conditions for the moths to mate, growing there populations. So, pray for sustained cold and snow!

> So, pray for sustained cold and snow!

Err, sorry, I'll have to respectfully decline. As much as I fear the winter moths, if I was a praying kind of gardener I'd pray for a warm and sunny December, and plan on using Bt in the spring.

So, pray for sustained cold and snow!

I'm game. So long as the snow is just enough to protect the plants, but not enough to make the road impassable. I live on a dirt road and plowing is mediocre around here. I cracked the belly pan on my poor little car last winter.

In the meantime, narcnh's rationale for the bug zapper sounds interesting.

Claire

Claire,
Knock on wood I have not seen a moth yet but I have noticed alot of birds feasting on some type of insect in my lawn. I thought you might be interested in this Globe article.

Here is a link that might be useful: Policing the forest one insect at a time

Katy:

Thanks for the link to the article.

Birds here are still picking at the lawn and some of them have been picking at the branches of oak trees. There must be something there worth eating.

I'm still waiting for the December Landscape Message which should give info on specific areas in Mass. I did find another chunk of information (see link). The winter moth overview says that female moths are usually found around the base of trees, although they can be anywhere. The blue jays and startlings have been feeding under the oaks and cedars.

They say that ground beetles and small mammals eat the pupae in the soil. I had wondered if the moths taste bad, which would prevent birds from eating them. I may be shot down for this, but I would think that a moth that has evolved to breed in late fall when many birds have migrated away, is probably edible.

Claire

Here is a link that might be useful: More winter moth info

I think birds will eat the winter moth catepillars, unlike the gypsy moth catepillars which are apprently quite distasteful. So, I think the birds do feast, but the numbers of those catepillars in recent years (billions, by some counts in SE Mass!), are simply so large that it does not matter. I'll rephrase my earlier wish:

Hope for just enough cold and snow to prevent the moths from mating, but not enough to 1) make roads impassable, or 2)damage my trees and shrubs. I hope mother nature (or perhaps Santa Claus) is listening.

They are on the Cape for sure! Not in the same numbers as last year, but here just the same. Even with the huge storm we just had...they are flitting around in the lights from all the big Utility trucks working along 6A here in Brewster and Orleans. What a mess!

sooey

Hey Sooey:

Nice to hear from you.

You Cape Cod guys really got clobbered by that storm. We got the ferocious winds too, but NStar managed to keep a grip on the power lines. Just a bunch of mini-outages. Not enough to effect quality of life, but I keep having to re-program the radio I use as a wake-up call. It keeps forgetting everything I ever taught it - time, alarm, preset radio stations ....

I was hoping the winds would blow the moths out to sea, but I guess it didn't happen. The latest UMass Landscape Message says the moths will fly whenever the temps get up to around 40 degrees F, and could continue into January if there are warm days.

Claire

The latest Landscape Message is out, and is predicting another banner year for winter moths in Massachusetts, primarily in the SE along the coast.

Claire

Here is a link that might be useful: December Landscape Message

Hi Claire,

Rats, not what I wanted to hear re: the winter moths. We did not see any damage from the catepillars this past spring but my Brother, just 6 miles down the road in Orleans, had to spray all of his trees.

The storm...YIKES! We were lucky enough to keep our power until NStar turned us off at 6:15 Friday evening. It was restored at 7:10 on saturday morning...not bad. Brewster, Orleans and Eastham were hit with what felt like a mini hurricane. Many big, old Locust trees have been lost...just fell over. The worst is the loss of the 150 year old Linden tree behind the Capt. Linnell House near Skaket Beach. Sad, sad, sad. The wind hit and hit hard...but no snow...whew!

And yet...the moths survived...go figure...

Sooey

We've had a couple of warmish days on the coast and the snow is mostly gone. Good conditions for winter moths to reappear.
Note that the UMass Landscape Message said that
"However, winter moth may be seen into January whenever warm weather prevails."

I noticed early this morning that the blue jays and a cardinal or two were picking at the branches of oaks and cherries again and were also picking at the lawn under the trees. A little later I noticed a moth quietly attached to the shady side of a column supporting the deck overhang. Not a smart move for a brown moth since the column is stark white. I tried to catch it but it woke up and got away, so I'm not sure of the identification.

The forecast calls for a few more days here with daytime temperatures near 40 degrees so we may see more.

Claire

Hi Claire,

Friday was warm here on the Cape, mid 40s as I recall. I was driving just after dark and let me tell you...those moths were loving the warm air. They were all over the place. I hope the birds will eat till there tummies are full! I hate to think of all the damage to the trees we could see this spring...

Sooey

How about the North Shore? Are the winter moths still swarming in Salem? With or without broomsticks, Salem being witch country (could wingless female winter moths use broomsticks)?

Claire

I was in Brewster and Dennis for Christmas - TONS of moths everywhere!

I also just saw these moths along the road that circles the Blue Hills Reservation in Canton and Milton on Christmas evening. Weird to see so many with the weather so rainy. I now know what people are talking about in this thread!

Lots of them here in southern Plymouth on Christmas Eve and Christmas night (what do you call the night of the 25th? Christmas Evening?)

I also saw some flying around during the day-time on the 26th.

I particularly resent them flying around the outdoors Christmas lights!

Sounds like the South Shore is really infested this year. Spring will be a disaster for trees, unless something kills the eggs.

Claire

They're baaaaack. Even though they temporarily vanished when we had the snow, the warm weather and rain brought back a fresh batch. But it seems like there aren't as many as before the big whiteout. Is that my imagination?

Claire, I always thought it was called "Christmas night" following Christmas Day. If you celebrate 12 days, then it's one of many such nights. :)