Hi Scott,

"I can not imagine trying to remove bermudagrass while dormant." Actually, I agree. Right now is the worst time to remove bermudagrass precisely because you can't use Round-up (or any glyphosate product) and that is one reason why I struggled with explaining how to do it. With glyphosate off the table as an option during bermuda's dormant season, you have to go with another method. All that is left, realistically, is hand-digging, rototilling, or a combination of the two.

I hope you don't think I was trying to "pick a fight" with you over the use of Round-up because I really wasn't. I have nothing specific against Round-up in general, and I have been known to use it in the past, though not in the last few years. : ) And, yes, there are times when the bermuda frustrates me to the point that I think about buying the biggest bottle of Round-Up concentrate I can find and taking out all the bermuda grass at once!

I was just making the point that she needs to remove the grass NOW while it is dormant in order to plant her veggies at the best time for them, so Round-up isn't the best thing for her at this point in the calendar year. If she had asked the same question in the May thru September timeframe, I probably would have said that Round-up is the only really good choice since no comparable organic method is available and digging out that large of an area is going to be tremendously difficult. (I may be 99% organic, but I'm not unreasonable!)

As a side issue that I find interesting, I do know that some people DO spray round-up on a dormant bermuda lawn in order to kill winter weeds sprouting in the lawn. As long as the bermuda is truly dormant, it doesn't hurt the bermuda and does nuke the weeds apparently. As to why someone would use Round-up for this, instead of a standard broadleaf or grassy weedkiller....well, that is beyond me. Perhaps it is more effective than most of the other products on the market?

I have used Round-Up in many different situations. In fact, the occasional use of Round-up is one of the main reasons that I describe myself as "mostly organic" instead of "totally organic". (True Confession: I tried being "totally organic" and decided I couldn't do it! Why? Because there are times I want/need to use either Round-up or Come And Get It and I refuse to give them up even if I only use them once or twice a decade.) Perhaps someday in the future, there will be an organic herbicide that is as effective as Round-up, or an organic fire ant control product that is as effective as Come And Get It. Until that day arrives, I'll continue to use them as needed.

Now, for the disclaimer, I only use Come And Get It in areas of the landscape where I'm not growing fruit or veggies because it is not labeled for use near food crops!

I know Round-up has its' place and I appreciate what it does when I use it. I do worry that both the overuse of Round-up and the development of Round-up Ready crops may eventually lead to weeds that become highly resistant to it, and then what?

Dawn

Hi Dawn.

Sometimes I post pretty quickly without reading all of the previous posts in the thread. I wasn't responding to anything in particular. I know that you were not picking on me. (That is a long line you would have to get in, LOL.)

I just happened to see yesterday that some bermuda had invaded one of my beds last fall that I have not yet filled. Without taking an hour or more now, the only thing I can think to do is take care of it when it greens up and hope I miss my plants.

Scott

I spent the weekend digging up Bermuda grass from around some young pine trees I planted last year. Exhausting - it seems like Bermuda grass can tie knots with each other and tree roots in its attempt to stay put. This is one place I am considering using Round-up - around my young trees. Don't know if it will make them sick or not, but the Bermuda is killing them anyway. I'm mulching my orchard, however, because of the fruit. I know most people use Round-up without hesitation, but I try to be as organic as possible since I have four small children who garden along side me. Call me a worry wart!

Dawn, we have clay soil so I know where you are coming from. I cheated a bit on my garden site. I moved back to Oklahoma about 10 years ago and - on the suggestion of my mother - decided to build my garden site where we had burned a huge brush pile. No weeds, no weed seed, no grass, it was a dream site. I know that the ashes, of course, changed the soil composition, but I have had an incredibly productive garden every year after I added tons of sand, "feedlot", and peat (especially in my raised beds). Burning a site is not an option for most people (especially during our current drought cycle) but it was a quick way to get rid of Bermuda.

I fight Bermuda in clay by attacking the grass when the ground is just right. Too wet and the clay is, of course, impossible to shake from the roots. Too dry and the roots just break off. I, therefore, remove most Bermuda grass when it is dormant. The soil stays in that ideal working condition more often in the winter/early spring. Just a technique that works for me. I'm sure everyone has to learn what works for them when fighting in the Bermuda war.

Tracy

Scott,

Well, to keep from getting the Round-up on your plants, just pour some of it into a cup and then "paint" it onto the undesirable bermuda grass with a cheap, small foam paint brush. The foam brush allows you to apply it precisely without a lot of dripping. OR, you can lay a piece of plastic sheeting over the desirable plants and spray the grass. OR, have someone help you. Give them a large piece of cardboard and have them hold it between the undesirable bermuda grass and the desirable plant while you spray the grass. Those are my favorite ways to keep herbicide drift from going where it is not welcome.

Tracy,

I like the term "fighting in the Bermuda war". I wonder if we humans have a chance of winning it?

If you are really worried about the Round-up harming the fruit trees, wrap them in plastic sheeting, spray the grass, and don't unwrap the tree until the Round-up is dry. I really don't think it would hurt a tree unless you totally soaked the leaves in Round-up OR drilled holes in the trunk and poured the Round-up down into those holes.

I agree that everyone has to figure out how to handle the bermuda grass in their own way depending on what kind of soil they have. I just want to know this: if we can put human beings into outer space and then bring them back safely, why can't we find a relatively easy (and safe) way to rid a yard of bermuda grass?

I agree that burning an area can kill the bermuda, and those of us who live in rural areas can still burn as needed for conservation purposes, but I hate doing it. After all the time we spend putting out fires here in our county (and wildfires in particular), I don't think I could EVER burn even a brush pile again. We just pile up the brush in out-of-the-way locations and let it decompose naturally. In about 10 years or so, you've got compost! (Clearly this strategy wouldn't work on a smaller piece of land.)

Dawn

Folks, here are a couple observations on Bermuda from my experience. Before coming to Oklahoma I dealt with it, on a limited scale, in Mexico. But the nights there were so cool, that it acted like another (almost benign) grass. Here, I have to admit that the stuff frightens me. I feel that if I stand still too long, in July, it might cover and smother me!

But I have met with some success. I'm still sod busting in my gardens, since we fenced the final projected areas first. I also do 95% of all my work with hand tools, even though someone gave me a rototiller. My impression is that the rototiller will be okay once I get everything under control. But it's too wimpy to deal with our rocks and Bermuda starting out.

I started out using a fork and double digging. This really did a great job, especially since I sifted through every handful of soil, with my hands, removing rock and Bermuda roots, before mixing it with compost and replacing it in the hole. The disadvantage to this method was twofold. First, it was way too slow. Secondly, I broke too many fork handles.

Last year I learned to use a mattock to dig up the Bermuda. I don't get as deep with the mattock. But it really works and I find it less tiring. Haven't broken a handle yet either :) I still double dig when able, especially for certain crops which can produce a lot in little space.

My family jokes that my favorite past time is digging. And, I have to admit, I do love doing it.

In areas where I have not yet managed to remove Bermuda I lay down large sheets of cardboard (as in refrigerator boxes, etc.) and mulch over them. This helps soften up the resistance before I get 'round to digging.

Our local extension agent gave me a very helpful lecture on Bermuda grass. He said that it can be shaded out. Something I tried, and it has worked well for me, is to work up a new area, roughly, just getting the soil broken up and removing as much Bermuda grass and roots as I can. Then I do a fairly close planting of Mesquakie Indian corn, which is a very vigorous dent variety. I plant the corn only about 5-6" apart in rows about 3-3 1/2' apart. When the corn is up about 9-12" I go through and hill it, digging up any Bermuda which, by this time, has made quite a resurgence. If I have time, I made cultivate once more, with a hoe, but usually the corn goes so fast that I can hardly get in there. The corn actually shades the Bermuda out. By fall that corn patch is a prime area to work up for the coming year, since there is not much Bermuda left. Oh, I forgot, I also plant cowpeas on the edges and down the center of the corn patch. When the corn dries down, the cowpeas climb up and continue the shading process. This has worked very well for me.

I have a hay type of soybean which I hope to try using as a cover crop on newly broken ground. For the last two years I've been very impressed with how I can plant this soy at the end of July and make a good crop before frost. Yet, it really makes a dense bushy patch and the Bermuda is hard pressed to penetrate.

Just a couple of ideas.

George
Tahlequah, OK

George,

Those are interesting ideas. Thanks for sharing!

I like trying new and interesting methods, so I might give yours a try on the gently sloping hillside between our backyard and the woods. I do have some old heirloom dent corns I could use.

I read something once that said you could get a bermuda grass pasture to revert to native prairie simply by not mowing it. Well, it might work somewhere, but it didn't work here! In the area where I tried it, the bermuda might have been somewhat weakened, but it kept right on going. At a fenceline, it climbed up one side of a 4' fence, went down the other side, rooted into the ground and invaded a pasture of native grasses (mostly big bluestem, little bluestem, curly mesquite grass, buffalo grass and blue grama grass).

Bermuda is the most aggressive grass I have ever seen, although Johnson Grass comes in a close second. At least with Johnson Grass, though, regular mowing discourages it.

In the areas around the house that were originally (and currently) lawn, I am slowly shading out the bermuda as the trees and shrubs grow and provide more and more shade. In areas I'd like to convert to veggie, fruit or flower gardening, though, the bermuda is a constant aggravation.

I need to get back outside and finish today's gardening chores, because our weather is due to turn bad tomorrow.

Dawn

IF I wanted to plant in an area that was set to Bermuda, I wouldn't even consider it until I had covered the whole area with a double layer of black plastic and left it for two years! Plant in containers for those two years. But I'm far too old to do the hard labor others have undertaken. Seriously, I have killed Bermuda with black plastic in one hot summer. I know that the disadvantage is that the soil is completely sterilized--and the earthworms will be killed out. But I did it anyway to get rid of the stuff, and since I added tons of compost and aged manure back to the soil I figure I reintroduced the good guys. Dorothy

Dorothy,

My brother covered an area with heavy black plastic for FIVE years....and when he lifted that plastic, he still had big, thick Bermuda grass runners and stolons EVERYWHERE. It was so discouraging to see they had survived that long. LOL

I am glad it worked for you, though!

Like you, I am older than I used to be and no longer willing to spend day after day after day killing myself digging up bermuda grass roots. (Although, today I did spend a couple of hours digging out some bermuda grass that was creeping into the rose beds.)

IF I were to kill the bermuda with black plastic, I know I'd have to put the life back into the sterilized soil by adding all kinds or organic material, but I really wouldn't mind that if it got rid of the bermuda.

One thing that just totally cracks me up is when someone with a new house asks "how do I start a Bermuda grass lawn?" (I'd like to suggest they come over and dig up our Bermuda grass and take all they want home with them....).
My favorite answer is to tell them to just rototill up their soil and plant some veggies, herbs and flowers and the bermuda will magically appear out of nowhere and spread like crazy. LOL

Dawn

So now that we have discussed bermuda, let's get to the weed at the top of the "evilness" list: nutsedge! For me, nutsedge makes bermuda look friendly. Last year after spraying some roundup on it, I heard it laugh at me as I walked away.

Yes, bermuda is just terrible to get rid of, but if you don't mind playing in the mud, you can get rid of it
There is a time every year almost that the ground around my house is very loose and mushy. They say not to work the soil when it is wet and muddy, but if you will go out and sit on a short step, dip your hands in and pull out the bermuda, it wll come out in long, long strands. I have cleaned out 3 beds this way and it has worked for me. then I add all the amendments I want , let it sit until the next season and it is nicely workable. I just do one bed at a time and eventually I will have my whole yard done. It takes time but it's worth it. also, an old farmer told me that strawberries will keep bermuda away. I have wild strawberries in my back yard and where there are strawberrie3s there is no bermuda.
darci60

Scott,

Yikes! I haven't had much trouble with nutsedge here (except in the veggie garden, of course) but it was one of my biggest problems in Fort Worth in the 1980s and early 1990s.

Have you ever tried Image for it? I never used Image...just hand-dug the plants after I figured out that pulling them up wasn't working. (Apparently I was leaving enough of the nut behind and it kept resprouting.) However, famed Texas gardening guru Neil Sperry always recommended Image back when I lived in Texas.

I think, though, that he was recommending Image for purple nutsedge. I don't think it works on yellow nutsedge, which is the kind I hand-dug from my veggie garden. (It took me five years to get all of it out of there.)

Dawn

Wow, thank you for all of the responses. My husband and I are discussing right this moment; what would be the best option for us. We were thinking that we could burn it or just till it up and start pulling it out. I don't mind having to do either, if the weather cooperates (don't want to burn down the 120 acres and neighbors surrounding us). Also, we have a dozer and tractor - we could just scrape the top layer off and then deal with the remainder. I do have plenty of black plastic, but do not want to wait years for it to die before planting. Decisions, decisions. I have a lot to ponder from the postings above and will post back once we have decided on which direction we are going to go.

Thank you all for such a thorough discussion on the many options for eliminating the Bermuda grass.

Ooooohhh, you have big garden tools!!! I would definitely start with the dozer. You will probably have to add stuff back into the soil. I'm a big believer in compost and lasanga gardening. The Soil Forum is a wonderful resource for that.

Lisa

Darci, I am here to testify that strawberries do not keep bermuda away! At least not domestic strawberries. I have lost two strawberry beds to bermuda. Maybe wild strawberries, I don't know, have never grown any. But I have grown plenty of bermuda, whether I wanted to or not! Last summer I cleaned out my strawberry bed when the soil was wet, pulled out long root after long root, and felt pretty proud of myself. Within two weeks it looked like I hadn't done a thing! I've decided I just can't grow strawberries, or anything that I can't mulch. I had good luck on the rest of my garden with mulching heavily last summer with grass clippings (hair of the dog that bit ya, so to speak!), but you have to be careful when it's fresh because it heats up and will even smoke, so sometimes that will hurt your growing things that you want to keep.

Strawberries can't compete with bermuda in this part of the state. Nothing can. Dawn, was it damp under that black plastic your brother laid down? And how big was the sheet? I'm surprised that the stuff could have survived that long. It must have been damp or it couldn't have. ANd if the sheet was narrow enough that the roots were connected to tops outside of the sheet, they wouldn't die of course. We don't have much nutsedge here, but Johnson grass is a pain. We roundup it.

Dorothy,

I think it was only about 8' wide. I don't think it was very damp there as his land had that horrible rocky, caliche' type clay that never seemed to hold moisture for long. Obviously it stayed damp enough for the bermuda to survive. For years, I didn't know he even had black plastic under all that white marble rock.....and, you know, the white marble rock probably did help hold in whatever moisture was under the black plastic!

The worst thing was that he really didn't have very much bermuda grass anywhere else in the yard--only under the black plastic! His place is in a really rural rocky, caliche area south of Fort Worth and he had a gorgeous mixture of native buffalo grass and wildflowers on most of the land, except where he had his veggie garden and blackberry patch.

I hand-dig most of the Johnson grass so I can remove those horrible stoloms but will hit it with Round-up if it pops up someplace I can't hand-dig it, like in the daylily bed.
After nine years here, the Johnson grass is largely eradicated from the 'civilized' parts of our landscape, but that doesn't stop it from trying to move in and take back the land.

Dawn

Oh the pains of getting the bermuda out. Been there, done that, and still doing it.

When I moved in to this house, the yard was "professionally landscaped". LOL, some English Ivy and bermuda around some bushes.

Now, lots of back breaking digging out bermuda I have this.

{{gwi:1088191}}
and you can see, I used round up at the edge of the lovely bermuda! :)

When I first moved here, there was only bermuda along this narrow spot besides the house.
More pictures at the link.

Here is a link that might be useful: Moni's yard

Here's another possibly helpful observation. I've heard that clear plastic heats up better and kills grass more thoroughly than does black. I tried black plastic in 2006 and it didn't help at all. I left it in place for approximately 4 mos.

George

To kill Bermuda grass in a garden plot. there is a weed killer that us supposed to prevent weeds for an entire year. Eary last Summer I had a landscaper use that around the edges of our lawn where lots of vines and wild shrubs were trying to grow. I do not know what the stuff is called and I am certain that nothing else will grow in that soil either.

If you want to plant a garden this year, dig a one foot wide trench 18 inches deep all aroung the border of your desired garden. The outside of this trench needs to be straight down, but the other more inward side of the trench can slant from the bottom of the straight down side at an about 45 degree angle up toward the top of the other side of the trench. So the trench will look almost like an upside down or point down triangle which has been sliced in half.

Once this trench has been dug, spray Weed Begone down the sides of the trench, and insert an 18 inch long root barrier in the straight up outside of the trench. (some people cut a carpet runner down the middle in a manner where they get 18 inch wide strips. Fill the rest of the trench with pea sized gravel. The weight of that gravel should hold the root barrier in place. The pea gravel should heat up in the summer and make the bermuda roots avoid growing through. Plus this 1 foot wide boarder of pea gravel makes it easy to see if any bermuda runner are trying to invade on top and they can be easily sprayed with Weed Begon or brushed with Round Up.

By doing all that work and maintaining it you will be preventing bermuda from invading your garden from outside of the bed. The reason you have to dig 18 inches deep is because that is usually how deep bermuda roots will grow and spread below soil level.

Once all that Hard work has been accomplished, You still have to kill the bermuda beneath the garden bed.

The only way I know to do that is to scalp the grass and weeds down at ground level. You can do this with by using a lawn mower with a bagger. Just set the mower to cut on its lowest setting. vacumn up any cut grass and or weed clippings which are not capture by the bagger.

Next lay down non-corregated cardboard over the entire surface of your garden area. If you cannot find that much of the shoe box, or cereal box style of cardboard, simply laydown at least 4 layers of newspaper. If you use the newspaper you will need to keep wetting it to help keep it from blowing away.

On top of the newspaper lay down a a very thick construction type black plastic to cover all the news paper.

Now to create a bed for your garden, spread an about 4 inch layer of dry peat moss which you have premoistened all over the black plastic. On top of the peat spread a 2 inch layer of sand. Next spread about 4 inches of good sandy loam top soil. On top of that spread a 2 inch layer of well processed compost.

These instruction will create an about 1 foot high raised bed. If the garden has been made large enough, it should be easy to slope the sides of the garden which ends at the beginning of your previously installed pea gravel trench.

To prevent the sloped garden sides from washing away or erroding, cover them with about a 4 inch layer of shredded mulch, or clean, weedless straw.

Your Garden plots will be best if they are installed in strips that are no more than 4 feet wide each with an at least 2 feet wide weedfree type, straw covered walkway on each side.

You can make these strips as long as your garden's outside pea gravel pit, border permits, and as many strips as the width of that pea gravel pit border permits.

I know this sound like a lot of work, but it is the pea gravel border which will be the most work, Once this is accomplish though it should produce the best defense your garden has from invading bermuda grass which is trying to get into your garden from the surrounding area. Still you must remember that this pea gravel border basically prevents subsurface roots from invading. That means you will still have to keep watch on the border, and spraying or brushing invading bermuda surface runner or vine runners with weed Begone, or round-up, or appropriate vine killers.

If all the above sounds like too much work for you, then consider scratching your desire to plant a garden this year, or do pot gardening. Then this spring and summer you will have time to create a lasagna bed. which should be ready for planting in spring of 2009.

There are very good instuctions on how to create a lasagna garden bed on the web. simply google the term "lasagna garden bed" and select the most informative sources which answer most of your questions.

Most of those sources recommend beginning with news paper or cardboard on the ground, but if you have lots of bermuda grass, I would still first lay down a layer of fairly thick construction weight black plastic as a base upon which all the layers their instructions say need to be applied.

I have not only Bermuda by Bahia grass(which I think is worse). I have put in all raised beds and cover the walk ways with thick mulch. A good source of mulch can be from farmers or horse people who feed round bales of hay. The animals leave the old and rotted hay at the bottom and this makes a great mulch for the walk ways as it is beaten flat and is mostly rotted so no weed seeds. Sometimes there is also manure in it so it feeds the soil. I bulid the raised beds with card board on the bottom and add soil and compost to raise it up. I also will "cook" new areas for the following year by laying compost, manure, rotted hay etc. under landscape fabic and/or black plastic and leaving it covered and fallow for the summer. I did this on a 20 by 20 area last year. This will kill all the grass and leave a rich soil behind. Be aware that if you leave this soil exposed to sun some weed seeds will sprout. So I usually will plant only in spots cut out of the weed barrier for another year or pull it back for fall crops.

Mary

Darci60's comments about digging out Bermuda when the ground is mushy (presumably before it starts growing) bring to mind another observation. I've had a WONDERFUL time during the cool/cold season this year, precisely because it allows me to catch up on the Bermuda while it's not growing. I use a mattock and work up new beds with it, piling the soil, rocks and Bermuda roots to one side of the hole wherever I'm working. Then, with my hands, or a miniature mattock I purchased a couple weeks ago, I go through the pile, pulling out rock and Bermuda roots as I fill in the hole. Bermuda roots are easy to recognize, even when dormant. If I'm especially ambitious I mix in compost as I refill the hole. The end product is a nice new place to plant in the spring.

I love this little hand mattock. Will have to post a picture of it. It cost about $9 at Walmart in Stillwater, OK. It came with a cheapo rubber grip on a cheap pine handle. The rubber didn't survive the first hour in the garden and then, I accidentally hit the pine handle with my big mattock.. crack! That was the end of that! So I too the broken tool to the local machine shop and had a piece of square tubing welded on for a handle. Now I have a quality tool. I can't believe how nice it is. When I first spotted it at Walmart I had one of those rare "Ah ha! Where have you been all of my life moments."

George

Here's a picture of that "mini-mattock" I mentioned just above. This is truly a revolutionary tool for me. I find that I don't want to go anywhere, in the garden, without it, as I can "doodle" with it. By "doodle" I mean that I can eliminate a clump of grass or cultivate in a tight spot. It has also proven to be a great tool to use in conjunction with the regular mattock.

George

The evaluation below (PDF) of Citrex Fire Ant Killer notes that the product kills Bermuda and St. Augustine Grass at some recommended dilutions. I wonder if this might be an unintended benefit for this product? A lower dilution rate results in more phototoxicity to the plants. I don't know how it would compare to RoundUp or other herbicides though.

Here is a link that might be useful: Citrex kills Bermuda Grass

Anney,

I used Citrex Fire Ant Killer at the recommended dilution for a couple of years when it first came out and it didn't kill the fire ants OR the grass. (Of course, I wasn't trying to kill the grass.) There is a pretty good organic herbicide called Scythe, but I think that while it suppresses bermuda, it doesn't totally kill it.

Personally, I have never sprayed with ANYTHING that is a permanent solution to the problem of bermuda grass. Even when I hit it with Round-up, a percentage of it is back in about a month. (sigh)

All that has permanently worked for it here is either to plant enough trees to eventually shade it out, or to plant St. Augustine, and let it crowd out the bermuda. Of course, these methods only work in a lawn area and not a shrub bed or veggie garden. : )

Dawn

okiedawn

Yes, that Bermuda grass is the devil to deal with. About four weeks ago I cleared out a 3' x 12' area that had BG so I could plant gazanias and dwarf marigolds. I saturated the soil with water, since roots are easier to get out of wet soil, and pulled and pulled BG for hours, digging down into the soil. The roots spread far and wide. I used a trowel. I used a dandelion uprooter. I used a shovel. I was so sore for two days afterward I could hardly move!

Well, I'd say I got about 90% of the visible BG out, but now small clumps are starting to appear in that bed. I check it every morning, and the clumps are always growing from a piece of root that may or may not be attached to a larger root.

I'm glad to hear your experience with Citrex. We also have fire ants, but I went big guns on getting rid of those suckers (Spectracide's Once and Done). I guess I won't hope for Citrex to work on BG either.

My next RoundUp foray will include putting on a rubber glove and sliding a cotton glove over it. Then dipping my double-gloved hand into the herbicide and hand-saturating the remaining BG on windless days as it appears. You can avoid destroying closeby plants that way.

Bermuda Grass is a pain in the butt!

Anney,

I've been hand-digging out bermuda grass all month that is trying to creep through the fence and into the veggie garden area. I can't spray Round-up there for fear the drift will make it over to the veggies. Sometimes, when I have bermuda grass in a place where I can't hand-dig it (or don't have time to), I use a little foam paint brush and brush the Round-up onto the grass.

In the highly enriched veggie garden soil, hand-digging it out of the raised beds is not so bad. In the hard-as-brick Red Oklahoma clay around the house though, it is hard to penetrate the ground with anything less than a mattock or bulldozer, so that is where I am gradually shading it out.

It is a shame that a grass that is as heat and drought-tolerant as bermuda is also excessively aggressive.

When people ask how to establish a new Bermuda grass lawn, I WANT to tell them to till up the soil, enrich it and then plant tomatoes and other veggies there....and the bermuda will magically appear out of nowhere and establish itself very quickly. I WANT to tell them that, but I generally don't. LOL

Dawn

Yeah, George, I've got one of those things, too. I can't remember where I got it... either Atwoods, Lowes or WMT. But wow, it really gets the job done. We cut down a tree several years ago and had the guys use the stump-eater on the stump, but I want to plant things there. I hacked away some pretty good sized roots with this tool.

I converted a 20 x 48 area from Bermuda to Square Foot gardening. From past experience I knew that tilling would just make Bermuda thrive, so I used one of those paint rollers with the "filler tube" handle. You actually fill the 5' roller handle up with round up etc and roll the grass. This prevents drift and ensures contact, while allowing much much less use of round up. Use the "blue dye" to mark the rolled area.

Next - after 10 days of 70+ temps, set the mower right on the ground and skin the dead bermuda. Cover with weed cloth and build the SFG on top. This requires 2x8 or 2x10 lumber, but it is worth it.

okiedivot

Great way to do it! What's "blue dye"? Do you mark the perimeters of the treated area with it or put it in the solution so you can see what you've painted or missed?

The "blue dye" is sold at real garden centers. It is the stuff used by landscaping services in their sprayers so they can see any missed spots. You just add it to any solution.

Is it ok to add my question to this discussion? I have bermuda too - much of it on a slope that is dangerous to mow. We have a large shade tree at the top of the slope (which is south-facing, so the tree doesn't shade it....) I want to remove the bermuda and replace it with ground cover. I don't want to strip the whole slope at one time, since there would be terrible erosion. I am worried about round up, since the tree might soak it up and suffer. I have tried digging out the grass in small areas and planting ornamental raspberry, but the bermuda magically keeps sneaking back in. Have any of you dealt with a similar situation? Thanks!!!!

A mattock! So that's what it's called. Mine died last summer. I couldn't find another in person, and didn't know what it was call so I couldn't search. I loved mine. She was a dutiful servant. I'm going to look for one in stainless steel.
Seedmama

Okay, this question is for Lisa, but all suggestions are welcome. I've had good luck with wheat suppressing bermuda. Now, when I dig or double dig an area and remove the bermuda I plant wheat.

What I'm wondering is what flowers also repel bermuda when established? I'm thinking of the borders of my garden bed where the bermuda wants to creep in under ground.

I have a lot of zinnias to plant. Those would be awesome. Don't know their root structures, though. For bermuda, the best is a root system that is weaved or deep.

I'm bored with wheat. me want flowers!

Potatoes are great for first beds. Not a bermuda stolon in sight. Of course, I worked it well by hand, but after the potatoes? nada.

I don't know of anything that repels bermuda! I would say though, the more dense your plantings are, the less likely bermuda will get a hold. I understand bermuda is not terribly shade tolerant, (which belies my conviction that it would withstand anything!), so, lots of shade from lots of plants, should make it less bermuda friendly.

Reread your post and saw the zinnia part. I would plant them. I LOVE zinnas. I do grow them in the bed that struggles the most with bermuda invasion, surrounded on all sides by the horrible stuff, and a neighbor who doesn't mow until the lawn police are about to descend. So, that is not a fair judgment call on the repelling, but really the best thing you can do is be vigilant.

Have you grown the tall red salvia? That will grow quite densely as well.

Red Salvia / Wild Seed Farms

Awesome. Thanks. I traded for zinnias and must have gotten a couple thousand seed! so, I was hoping it didn't mind growing next to bermuda. You sent me some red and blue salvias. I haven't seeded it, yet. Until this year I really didn't have enough good soil. I think I'll plant those on the border too, then. Shewt, why don't I just plant a little of everything all the way around (under the right conditions).

Okay to seed it out tomorrow or should I wait until true spring?

You can seed the zinnias whenever you want. Mine reseed themselves every year and enough seeds survive the cold wet clay every winter to give us more zinnia plants than we need. However , they aren't going to germinate until the soil warms up quite a bit more so there is no good reason to sow them this early. The longer the seeds are in the soil the greater the chance that something will eat the seed or that it will rot in cold, wet clay.

okay

Dawn beat me to it and said it better :) I would wait. If you have poppies or larkspur, get them out there now, otherwise, wait a while.

Okay. I have several different varieties of poppies. So, I'm glad you mentioned that. I'll "winter" sow some and try the others when spring arrives. (I swear, I think you're reading my mind. Those are the varieties I was thinking except the Mexican hat which should be easy peasy.)

I have buckwheat burning a whole in my pocket at the moment. I decided to hold off...but I've had green buckwheat seedlings ALL winter, so they must be more winter hardy than I have been led to believe.

Nice! Love the stuff, because the bugs love it so.

we have Bermuda in our front yard, and I am always trying to keep it out of the flower beds. We put fescue in the backyard and it is turning to weeds. Every year we have to add more seed. My husband was thinking of putting in Bermuda this year, but I realize that it will become a nightmare if we do. the only way to get rid of it is Round-up. Would almost rather that the back yard turned into a forest again for all the trouble it is.

Jessaka, I overseed my bermuda with fescue almost every year. I prefer fescue, but I let them duke it out. They each have their positives and negatives, so I figure they can figure out the balance and I will live with what comes out.

There are places on this earth where the people would love to be able to grow Bermuda, or almost anything else. I have to fight Bermuda every year, but it could be worse.

Larry

Larry, I know that but you still aren't going to be able to make me count bermuda grass as a blessing. It is a curse! I know it could be worse. I have seen worse, and it is called Johnson Grass, aka bermuda grass on steroids.

Bon, Remember that poppies are cool-season flowers and most varieties can burn up pretty quickly in our heat here. My poppies, which reseed every year, already are popping up out of the ground, and have been for a couple or maybe three weeks. From seed, it generally takes 12-14 weeks to bloom, although the early arrival of heat can make them grow a bit more quickly and bloom a little earlier. While it varies with the arrival of the really hot weather, my poppies usually play out in the heat sometime between the end of May and the end of June, although in a really cool and mild spring/summer, they might bloom a little bit into July. So, don't delay sowing the poppy seed too much longer or they'll just be starting to flower when the heat arrives and finishes them up. And, generally speaking, most poppies don't tolerate being transplanted very well at all, although I've gotten away with transplanting them while they're still tiny. The ones in my garden, where the soil is lighter and looser after all the amending, pop up earlier than the ones in the clay. I just saw the first plants popping up in clay in the pasture about 6 or 8 days ago. I have some new poppy seed to sow and hope to get it done tomorrow if it isn't too windy out there. The seed is so tiny that you cannot broadcast sow it if there is much wind at all. I have a pound of corn poppy seed and then smaller packets of other kinds. I want fields full of poppies this year.

Dawn, you remember speaking on another recent thread about a cool spot beside the house under the drip drip of the a/c? I have one of those. It drains well, too. Some of my cole crops did well there last year on into August. Think it would work for poppies?

Thanks for the heads up.

BTW, I have bermuda, johnson grass AND nutsedge EVERYWHERE. Feel sorry for me. (thanks) Haha

What the curse is is that Oklahoma does best with Bermuda grass. The curse is that our fescue dies in the heat every year and the weeds take over, and now we have bare spots. And that is the back yard. The front yard has Bermuda grass that I am constantly trying to keep out of the flower beds.

Like Dawn, my husband began mowing the field next to us that had pretty wild flowers, like stick tights. Ha. And now it is all Bermuda. I have a feeling that the seed was there before and was just waiting for it to get some light. One year I threw out a few pounds of clover, but I don't see that it made it. I hate using something like Round-Up and consider the company that made it to be evil, but it often makes me think that it appears as an angel of light. But I use it on Bermuda and Poison Ivy.

One year the ag man came out here to look at our lawn and said that we had so many weeds next door that we would never get rid of them. as a result my husband even mows the lawn of the empty house next door to keep dandelions at bay. and when the weeds come up in our Bermuda lawn I will spray them since it won't kill the Bermuda since it would be dormant. But I have read that Round-Up ruins the soil so I will only spray the big leaf weeds.

The winter is actually the best time to prepare a new garden space in Oklahoma. The ground is heaving due to the cold and hot fluctuations, so breaking ground is fairly easy now versus when the roots are active and the soil is packed. And in Oklahoma, packed soil is awful to dig through.

A 60 X 60 garden is not a small plot. So I assume you are planning on this being an important garden you will use for a long time. For those reasons I would suggest doing this the easiest way. It's not the cheapest, but it will insure the best results the first year and your life will be so much easier going forward.

The way I've done my last couple of gardens was to hire a small bobcat / landscape guy. They usually charge by the hour, but to keep them honest, see if you can get them to bid the job as a whole. Then they'll move faster. There are lots of them looking for work during the winter.

Mark off your garden spot with landscaping spray paint available at any local big box garden store. Have the bobcat guy come in and scrape out 8 - 10" of soil in that sqaure and hall it off. Bemuda roots traditionally don't go more than 6" deep, so that clears them all out. You're probably on clay anyway so that also gets all the bad soil out of the garden spot. Then either you go pick up yourself, or have one of the soil companies in your community bring you enough garden amended soil to backfill the plot. That same bobcat company can put the amended soil in the plot for you in a matter of minutes. You'll want a 12" depth of soil so it will be a slightly rasied bad. This allows for some settling. Plus that's deep enough it allows for all normal garden plant roots to thrive without having to grow in the native clay. For a 60 X 60 plot 12" deep, that would be 134 yards of soil. Prices to buy good garden amended soil in bulk is cheap.

When you are done be sure to leave a sharp vertical edge around the garden spot that is 6-8" deep straight down. Then have your garden soil slowly rise away at a sloping angle from that edge.....kind of like a leaning "V" shaped edge. With 6" or more of soil exposed at the edge of the garden, bermuda runners or roots will not try to span the open air most of the time. This will eliminate the overwhelming majority of instances where bermuda crawls back into the garden spot. This is the method most commercial gardens use to keep out weeds as well as give the viewers that perfect edge look around the garden spot where they see the grass end and then the garden mulch or soil begin. Because looking staright on you can't see that vertical edge you cut into the soil.

I understand that all of this is not the cheapest way to put in a garden, but if you want instant gratification the first year, with little or no work, this will guarantee you will have a great garden spot for many years to come. And if you are physically able, you can do as much of it yourself as you feel you want. Cutting out and replacing the base soil however insures a great garden spot in Oklahoma. As most experts agree, by beginning with fully amended organic soil, this allows you to only have to amend the soil in the future by adding compost or other additives by spreading it on the surface rather than having to work amendments deep into the soil. Contrary to what most gardeners have thought for many years, tilling up all the garden soil every year to areate and loosen it, is actually not good for the soil amenities.

Mark