I think it's obvious, but just in case, "Dawn" is "okiedawn".

Okiedawn would probably terrace it and plant more tomatoes. LOL

Hi Susan,

It's nice to see you here. Haven't seen you in a while.

You know, you give me far too much credit. I'm just an ordinary old gardener like everyone else here....except the newbies. After about 3 years, they can't call themselves newbies either and have become ordinary old gardeners too. What we have in common is that we all like to play in the dirt.

I am trying to visualize flooding so bad that it took y'all 22 truckloads to repair the damage. Hmmm. Do you mean 22 pickup truck loads or dumptruck loads?

In order to best answer your questions, can you tell us a little bit about your hill side?

What kind of soil is your native soil at your place? Clay? Sand? Sandy loam? Silty loam? A mix? Any rocks? Lots of rocks? Also, what kind of soil did y'all truck in? As a corollary to that, does your native soil have decent organic matter in it? Does the soil you trucked in have a decent amount of organic matter? Do you know the approximate pH of your native soil in terms of whether it leans towards being strongly acidic, basically neutral or strongly alkaline.

How stable is your soil now? Is it likely to slide or erode easily? If so, we need to think of a quick fix just in case it ever rains again in our lifetime. What is your annual rainfall there in Edmond?

Do you have any retaining walls or anything or will the plants be the only mechanism or holding the soil in place and preventing future erosion?

Tell me about your trees and the shade. How heavy is the shade? Full shade? Dappled shade? Full in some areas and dappled or light shade in others? What kinds of trees are there and how large are they? Were they native to the site or did y'all plant them? While the trees are on our mind, was dirt placed on top of their currentl soil...i.e. above the existing grade level. If so, was this done merely to restore soil that had been eroded by the flooding, or did y'all add several inches of soil on top of existing soil that had not eroded? The answer to this question is very important.

How is your property landscaped? Formal? Informal? Naturalistic? What kind of landscaping do you prefer? High-maintenance, i.e. vey formal? Low-maintenance? No maintenance?

How is your hillside used? Is it in an area y'all walk through and thus you'd need to maintain a pathway area, or is it further away and not used for much except for the view of it from elsewhere on the property?

If you answer my questions, I promise to give the issue serious thought and respond with some suggestions.

Keep in mind though I'm not a landscape architect or a landscaper....just an ordinary old dirt gardener.

Dawn

Dawn, that flooding was AWFUL last year in Edmond. We saw it when we went to go help a friend of a friend who was flooded out, she lost everything in her house. The water was over the top of her lower cabinets in the kitchen. There was a drainage creek in her neighborhood that overflowed and flooded houses UPHILL by two streets.

Her rainfall should be the same as OKC. Edmond is just a little north of me.

Susan, you have my sympathy. I saw that first hand, it was horrible. I'm glad ya'll are okay. When we wish for rain now, we still don't wish for 10 inches in a couple of hours!

Lisa

Thanks guys, I appreciate your replies. Lisa, we're fine, the house didn't flood, but the creek bed down below (40-50ft down) was a torrent and just took trees out and gashed hillsides and basically made a real mess of things.

Dawn, I stand corrected, my husband said we got 20 not 22 truckloads of dirt, but it was big dump truck loads not pickup loads. Needless to say we could have had one hell of a vacation for what it cost but I try not to think about that. The 20 dump truck loads was to not only fill-in washed out areas and a big deep gash/ditch but also to contour the creek bed to channel the flow properly. They also put rip-rap (sp?) in both ends of our property/creek bed - roughly 250 ft long.

I'm going to try and answer all your questions in the order you asked.

1.Soil: The condition of the hillsides is rough. Nothing has been done to them and much of the top soil is gone (I think). I'm sorry but I'm not sure what kind of dirt we have there, but I can tell you it is light red in color and powdery in texture. It's like dust, so maybe it's sandy soil?

The 1 and 1/3rd acre of land is very natural, something you would find out in the country, not like you would expect to find in Edmond. Parts around the house are "landscaped" - good soil, flower beds and a small grass lawn. All the rest of the land is native.
If you�re interested I will get a few pictures together to better demonstrate what I'm talking about.

There are small rocks/pebbles in the hillside, it sort of looks like fill-dirt which is what the dump trucks brought in. Small pebbles in it and deep red and loam-ish in color/texture.

They put in a mix of rye/fescue grass, then laid some erosion control matting over it to hold in place and help establish the grass. We are watering it every day and rye and some fescue is coming up. We had this done almost 3 weeks ago.

There is no organic matter in the hillside soil to speak of. There are layers of leaves which provide something, but nothing added by us. I do not know the ph level and I don't think there was organic matter in the soil trucked in.

The hillside soil looks poor (powder/dust) but it actually holds well. Before the monsoon that Lisa mentioned we have never had ANY erosion problems.

Edmond gets an average 36 inches of rain per year. No retaining walls in the hillside area in question only plants/trees control it. Some areas have Virginia creeper, some have natural oat grass/blue stem. The one in question has some vinca, monkey grass but an equal amount of bald spots.

However rainfall from our "yard proper" , driveway, etc. is routed via French drains to a concrete culvert so the rainfall that hill sides get is from the rain falling � i.e., no run-off.

For the area in question all the trees are native, none were planted by us or previous owners. We have some humongous black walnuts, a lot of black jack oaks and some elm. It is VERY shady in this area once trees get leafed out. I would say full shade in the hillside in question. There also has been no dirt added to the hillsides, only the creek bed. Added dirt was to fill-in and contour creek bed to allow for proper channeling of rainfall.
Our property is landscaped mostly informal and naturalistic. Due to the size and number of beds, etc. I need low maintenance for the hillside areas.
The hillside is an area not used much although with the other work done (leveling, grass) I believe we will use it more in future. From the upper "real" yard, to the hillside, creek bed and then other hillside and woodland, we have a series of stairs of railroad ties (18 of them). The hillside will be to the right of the stairs as you go down. We are going to put a tree house in for our grandkids down there too. This area is visible from our back deck which basically looking off the deck you see the hillsides and creek bed areas. So yes, it is visible from the deck.

I think I've answered all your questions - whew! =)
If you would like to see pictures I could email you some so as not to clutter up the forum.

I really appreciate this Dawn, please let me know if you want the pictures and if you have other questions. I should add that in other areas of the yard for ground cover I have vinca, moneywort, Virginia creeper.

Thanks a bunch!
Susan

Susan,

Thanks for the thoughtful answers to my questions. If your soil is powdery, it might be sandy or it might be silty or some combination thereof, but it sounds lacking in organic matter, so we won't pick anything that needs real rich humusy soil for this area, right? Knowing what is already in place helps me and everyone else visualize what you're starting with, but if you have time to post a few photos, that would be great.

We actually have a lot of the same plants here in our red clay that you have there, so it shouldn't be that hard for me to come up with a list of possibilities.

Underneath the taller trees like the black walnuts, oaks and elms are there any shorter trees like possumhaw hollies, black cherries, native plums, virburnums, redbuds or anything similar that gives you something "medium" in between the taller canopy trees and any grass or ground cover?

I'll try to work on a list of plants in my head while I'm waiting to see photos and to hear back from you on whether there's any understory plants that will be taller than the ground covers but shorter than the trees.

I hope the rest of you will contribute ideas as well...lots of y'all live a lot closer to Edmond than I do and probably have a better feel for some good natives or well-adapted non-natives that would work in this situation.

Dawn

Thanks Dawn, yes we do have smaller trees, I know some are redbuds, not sure about others. I don't know my trees! I'm going to try and post several pictures now.... as soon as I figure out how! ;)

The pictures will show we have a retaining wall I forgot to mention. It actually is above one of the hillsides we're talking about. The pictures are all from April 18, 2010, hard to believe - just before the torrential rains. I took the pictures during a light rainstorm after relocating some vinca to the hillside. It's unbelievably green, nothing like that now. Hard to believe things will green out so much in just under a month, of course without rain it won't.

I also have pics of the creek bed area after the flood that I'll try to post.

Thanks Dawn, and like Dawn, I hope other's will offer up their advice. Thanks all.

Susan

Hello to all you gardening-gurus!

I've posted pics on Picasa, before, 'during' and after the flood-tastrophe of last April.

I thought it would be good to give you a complete picture of what things looked/look like.

I look forward to hearing your ideas!

Susan

Here is a link that might be useful: Pictures of hillsides and creek bed.

Susan,

It was so beautiful and green until the floods swept through, wasn't it?

Let me work on a list for a couple of days and I'll try to get it posted Sat. or Sun. if my schedule and the wildfires permit. I'm "overscheduled" for the next 2 days, so not sure if I'll get anything posted before Sunday, but I feel like I have some good ideas floating around in my head.

I think I forgot to ask this question....will you be able to irrigate as needed, or does everything need to be able to survive on natural rainfall?

Dawn

Thanks Dawn, please don't feel like you need to rush, Ijust appreciate the help.

We are going to adjust sprinkler system to cover much of the hillside so we can supplement and will but I hate to "waste" water so would prefer plants that don't need a lot but during dry times we can make up for what mother nature isn't providing - if that makes sense.

Thanks again.

Susan

Susan,

OK, here are some suggestions for you to consider for ground covers on your sloping soil:

Native Plants: Native plants would be preferable for many reasons, particularly because they are well-adapted to our highly variable weather both in terms of wild temperature swings and erratic rainfall.

The native understory plants in our woods include many of the plants I've listed below and while they sometimes have died back to the ground during our toughest drought periods (obviously we don't irrigate 10-11 acres of woodland), they always rebound when rain returns.

One note about natives: they aren't necessarily easy to find. You'll have to search out nurseries that feature native plants, including mail-order companies that may have the native plants themselves or at least seeds, rhizomes, stolons, etc.

VIRGINIA CREEPER (Parthenocisssus quinquefolia): This plant has a well-deserved reputation as a garden thug, and we have it all over our property, so I understand why it has that reputation. However....and this is a big "however": it is hard for me to dislike any plant that tolerates our often-poor soils, extreme heat and both heavy flooding rains and months with little to no rainfall.

For somebody with a large amount of ground to cover and a small budget, this is a no-brainer, as long as they don't mind having to pull it down out of the trees (or trim it back from them) or off buildings now and then.

Virginia Creeper survives only on rainfall, although it will benefit from being watered once or twice a month in "Extreme" or "Exceptional" drought conditions. It is deciduous which could be a "minus" for someone looking for evergreen color, the foliage turns a gorgeous brilliant red in autumn and it produces tiny berries that are used by overwintering songbirds as a source of nutrition in the cold, winter months.

Susan, I know you probably don't want this one, but I'd be remiss if I didn't include it because it is one of the toughest, best-growing, native groundcovers we have in Oklahoma.

If I needed a groundcover in a semi-wild section some distance away from the house where I wasn't going to water and where it might get minimal maintenance (in this case the maintenance would be to pull it down from the trees at the end of the growing season and weed-eat it back from pathways as needed), this is the one I'd pick. I'd never have to fertilize it, water it or worry about heat and drought or cold temps killing it.

CORALBERRRY (Symphoricarpos orbiculatus): This is a lovely, usually short, almost-but-not-quite-green plant that grows in dappled shade to part shade in mostly dry soil. It colonizes an area by spreading underground stolons which makes it great for erosion because it will go everywhere.

This plant has clusters of very small but pretty pinkish berries that reach their peak color in fall, and the leaves are a sort of pale lime-green when they appear in spring and darken slightly going into summer.

If your soil stays moist all the time, it probably could not compete with more rampant growers, but in our mostly dry soil it grows and spreads well. In our heavily overgrown and well-shaded woodland, it grows best on the edges in dappled shade and thins out some in heavy shade, to it is best in dappled shade or in a mixed woodland with other plants grow with it and can fill in better in the heavy shade while it predominates in dappled shade.

PARTRIDGEBERRY (Mitchella repens): This is a low-growing 92-4" tall) creeping groundcover that spreads by creeping stolons. It has tiny white flowes and produces smallwhite berries. Unfortunately, it likes evenly moist soil so would need irrigation in order to survive our summers, or could grow in a moist area along a creek bank or spring. It is an evergreen and the dark green leaves and flowers are small to it is more of a small, subtle background plant than a big bold plant that shouts "look at me".

WIDOW'S TEARS (Commelina spp.): This is a very tough native groundcover with small blue flowers (1-1.25") that open in the mornings. While it can be invasive in a home landscape that receives regular watering, it is less rampant in a non-irrigated naturalistic landscape. These get a foot or two tall (how tall depends on the species and how much moisture it receives), goes dormant in the winter months, and will spread via either rhizomes or stolons depending on which species you grow. Commelinas can grow anywhere from full sun to part shade to dappled shade, but may not bloom in very heavy shade. Probably available as started plants from nurseries that feature native plants, it also can be grown from seed.

HORSEHERB (Calyptocarpus vialia) This is a semi-evergreen (almost fully evergreen in zone 8 but seems it isn't necessarily evergreen in zone 7) that grows low, maybe to about 10" max but can be kept mowed to 2-4" and used as a lawn substitute. It blooms on and off with tiny yellow flowers. During the last 20 years this has become very popular with folks in Texas doing xeriscaping with native plants, but I don't know if it has caught on much in Oklahoma yet. It will grow in full shade to part shade to dappled shade. It is not breathtakingly beautiful, but it is tough and survives fairly rough conditions. Since it forms fairly dense almost turf-like mats of foliage, it will tolerate both mowing and foot traffic which is unusual in a ground-cover type of plant. It spreads by stolons. You can raise it from seed if you can find seed or collect seed from an established stand. Available from nurseries that specialize in native plants.

FERN ACACIA (Acacua abgystussuna): Very fine foliage and small white, globe-shape powder-puff type flowers. Grows in full sun to part shade. Can grow 1 to 3 feet tall depending on sun exposure and moisture or lack of such. Spreads by rhizomes. Native to Oklahoma, Texas, New Mexico, Mexico and parts of the southeastern U.S. This particular acacia doesn't have thorns like some of them do. In shade, will survive pretty well with no irrigation after it is established, but in part-sub to full-sun, it might need to be watered once or twice a month.

EBONY SPLEENWORT (Asplenium platyneuron): In our dry woodland, this is thicker and more prolific in wet years and almost nonexistent in very dry years. It is a very small, low-growing fern that exhibits remarkable drought tolerance. They are said to get as tall as 16-18" but the ones in our heavily shade woodland tend to stay at about 6 to 8 to 10" in height. In needs good drainage, so in our woodlands, it appears on little ridges that are slightly higher than the surrounding ground.

BRACKEN FERN (Pteridium aquilinum, v. pseudocaudatum): This is a taller fern that gets a foot or two tall and is tolerant of dry woodland areas once established, so it would need regular irrigation the first year or so. It can grow anywhere from full sun (with regular irrigation) to full shade as long as the soil is well-drained.

UNDERSTORY TREES:

Small native trees, often referred to as understory trees, could be planted to fill the 'gap' between taller forest-type trees and low-growing groundcovers.

Some of the small native trees you could use would include these:

RUSTY BLACKHAW VIBURNUM (Viburnum rufidulum): This is a deciduous understory tree whose leaves are green in spring and summer and turn a purplish-orangeish-reddish-yellowish color in fall. Flowers in spring are white and appear only after the trees are fully leafed out. They are tiny, appear in clusters and are heavily fragrant. Birds eat the fruit. Because this one has limbs that slowly hang back down to the ground (not really weeping but just slowly growing downward over ime), it is best planted away from pathways. Can grow in everything from full sun to full shade, but may not bloom in shade heavier than dappled shade.

OKLAHOMA PLUM/THICKET PLUM: (Prunus gracilis): These are the very small plum trees that gradually form a thicket. Their height is variable, but generally stays between about 2 and 6 feet. They have very fragrant blooms in early spring and produce tiny plums. They grow best in well-drained soil, but here in southern OK they seem to survive in some pretty thick clay soils as well.

Other similar but taller thicket plums are Chickasaw Plum (P. angustifolia) and Hog Plum/Creek Plum (P. rivularis). The latter two can get 6 to 12' tall and are valuable sources of food for wildlife or the small plums can be made into jelly. They are very pretty in bloom, but not nearly as lovely the rest of the year, but they are tough and tolerate low-rainfall and drought.

REDBUD (Cercis canadensis): I'm sure you're familiar with these. They are great understory plants and in our wood land they spread easily by seed although it can take yound saplings 4 to 7 years of growth before they begin blooming. Very drought tolerant, but if in "extreme" to "exceptional" drought, they'll benefit from being watered once or twice a month. Tolerate full sun but are happier in dappled to part shade.

POSSUMHAW HOLLY (Ilex decidua): This is a native, deciduous holly that produces large crops of berries that stay on the plants well through winter and into early spring. It generally maxes at around 12' in height, to maybe 15' when old and well-established. It does tend to sucker and form thickets in native, woodland settings. At our house, the birds migrating north in late winter and early spring usually strip the berries off the possumhaw hollies. The berries provide great winter cover, and when the trees bloom in spring the tiny flowers are very attractive to bees and other small pollinators. Very touch and drought hardy. Ours will sometimes drop leaves if not watered during periods of "extreme" to "exceptional" drought, but rebound quickly when watered or when rainfall returns. Possumhaw is a slender, multi-trunked tree with bark that is a pale, light gray. It has a look similar to yaupon holly but with significantly larger leaves. Yaupon holly (Ilex vomitoria) is very similar but grows taller and has smaller, thicker leaves. One reason that yaupon and possumhaw holly grow so well in native woodlands and naturalistic landscapes is that they tolerate everything from very dry soil, drought and full sun (once established, but need some water the first year or two) to slow-draining clay.

SUMAC (Rhus spp.): Often reviled as a 'roadside weed', Sumacs have grown in popularity with people who prefer native plants that tolerate tough conditions. Flameleaf or Prairie Sumac (R. lanceolata) gets about 10 to 15 feet tall and grows best in well-drained soil. In the fall, the leaves turn a vivid red. In the spring, it has white blossoms that grow in tallish pyramid-shaped clusters that can be 4-6" tall. Spread by suckering. This form of sumac has winged leaves and is most often found in moister soils in the eastern part of the state. The closely related Smooth Sumac is more aggressive but lacks the winged leaves.

NATIVE GRASSES: Native grasses can be very useful for erosion control in areas with lots of sun, and there are a couple of them that tolerate heavier shade.

INLAND SEA OATS (Chasmanthium latifolium) grows from full sun to all kinds of shade--full shade, part shade and dappled shade. Sometimes I see it on the eastern edges of woodlands where is gets full sun until noon and is shaded after that. This one gets 2' tall in dry areas and up to 4' tall in wetter areas. It will grow in most soils and tolerate soil moisture that ranges from very dry to poorly draining soil. The pretty, drooping seedheads dance in the wind and are showy when massed. Will spread by rhizome in conditions it likes.

Little Bluestem (Schizachyrium scoparium) is a native grass ofren found growing under and around native Post Oak trees. It will stay shorter (maybe 2 feet tall) in drier soils and can get up to 5' tall in moist ground. Foliage is a lovely blue-green in summer and turns a warm tan to light brown in fall and winter. It prefers well-drained soils but tolerates heavy seasonal moisture.

MUHLY GRASS is native in parts of Oklahoma and Texas as as part west/sothwest as Mexico and as far east as Massachusetts. The native one seen most often in Oklahoma is Seep Muhly (M. reverchonii) which tolerates alkaline soil. Muhly grass gets about kneehigh and has feathery pinkish seedheads in fall. It will grow in most soils and tolerates seasonal poor drainage as well as pretty dry soils in summer.

SPLITLEAF BLUESTEM (Andropogon ternarius) grows in well-drained sandy soil and tolerates drought. Here on our land, it grows on the eastern edge of the woodland where it gets morning sun and well-drained clay and on the edges of a swampy area in a woodland clearing. It usually gets only a foot or two tall, but in a rainy year might make it to 3 or 4 feet tall. The seedheads are little tufts of silvery-white. It and little bluestem grow in similar conditions on our property, sometimes mixed together. Spreads by seed and is a clumping grass and not a running grass.

NATIVE FLOWERS: Some perennial flowers spread out in every-enlarging areas and make good groundcovers. Some annual wildflowers reseed to well they seem like perennials. The easy way to figure out which native wildflowers would make a good groundcover planting would to be to sow a wildflower seed mix formulated for Texas/Oklahoma (see the Website of Wildseed Farms for ideas of the available mixes) and see what grows and does best. Plants that are happy in your growing conditions will reseed and spread and make effective groundcover type plants.

I'm out of time and need to go haul home some freebie hay for mulch and compost in a few minutes, so I'll come back later and try to list some well-adapted plants that would give you more of a 'created' landscape look than a native one. You can, of course, blend together natives and adapted plants for a naturalistic landscape that clearly is manmade but which was well-thought-out to give a look that is natural but not totally wild.

Dawn

Thanks so much Dawn, I really appreciate all your work on this! Lots of info to read and think about, leaving shortly to go watch my grandson play baseball (brrrr) but will look it over later tonight or tomorrow.

Saw your suggestion of virginia creeper. We have two patches of that already on two parts of our property so have ample supply. My husband hates the stuff though so we'll see! Do you have any experience with chocolate chip ajuga?

Thanks again!!!
Susan

Susan,

I haven't grown chocolate chip ajuga, but have grown several other ajugas, although mostly in Texas and have grown only one kind here. The only issue with ajuga is that it prefer soil that leans towards being slightly acidic, with a ph of about 3.7 to about 6.5 or so, and it likes soil with organic matter. I think you mentioned earlier your soil was low in organic matter?

If you want to plant ajuga, you probably ought to add some sort of organic matter to the top few inches of soil, and you could kill two birds with one stone by adding compost and peat moss because peat moss would increase the planting area's acidity if your soil isn't in the right pH range.

Since ajuga is related to mint, it spreads well and can become invasive, but since you have a lot of ground to cover, that works to your advantage. Ajuga also is easy to propagate by transplanting offsets from the main plants every year, and is beautiful both when blooming and when out of bloom.

I think it would need occasional irrigation to get it established the first year.

It is one of the few plants I've grown here that I don't think the deer bothered, but the drought of 2003 got mine and I didn't replant.

Dawn

I have grown several types of ajuga. It hasn't been consistent for me. It comes and goes. It is really beautiful this time of year though!

I couldn't access your pics, so I'm not sure what you shade/sun is. Do you have any place for daylilies? The wild orange ones will multiply very well....and are pretty hard to kill! I'm sure I have some I could donate to the project!

Columbine will take some shade and will give you some color. I'm not sure how well they would hold back erosion...just trying to think of some stuff to give you a little color.

We're going to go with vinca and the ajuga, will be adding compost and peat moss to soil, thanks for suggesting that Dawn.
Lisa, thanks for your offer to donate some of your orange daylillies. I'm afraid we don't get enough sun for them, but I appreciate your offer! One of our neighbors two years ago gave me a garden cart full of the orange daylillies, I love daylillies and like the orange ones too. Made a new flower bed in an area that gets sun and they've done well.

Thanks for the suggestion of columbine, I do want (eventually) to add some different plants to add variety - different heights, color, texture - once we get the groundcover in and established somewhat. It is definitely a work in progress!

I'll look at the link and see why it wouldn't work. Thanks for your help ladies!

Susan

Well, there are 300 new vinca/chocolate chip ajuga plants in the ground on some of our hillside. In addition lots of cleanup of leaves and debris and uncovering all kinds of groundcover complements of Mother Nature. Some of it is a heart shaped leaf clump with little purple flowers and another type that almost looks like the leaf on moneywort but maybe a bit smaller, with tiny white/yellow flowers. Based on that limited description, anyone have an idea what it might be?

As you would expect the soil under all those leaves is much richer than the expose hillside and the newly exposed groundcover will take over even more - I hope. Sprinklers were adjusted and a couple added to where we can water hillside too. I want to keep that to a minimum.

We also had pebble type rock put on all our steps going down to our lower yard and it turned out so good! I'm so please with how it is all looking, it seems like a park down there now. As I would work I could see and hear all the birds and even with the wind, it was so peaceful. I actually look forward to going down and working.

I'll try to post some pictures to the album later. BTW, the link is working again if you're interested.

Susan

Daffodils would naturalize on your hillside and give you spring color for the rest of your lives. They will come up through vinca and then the foliage disappears by June.