Not being an old wives tale, but certainly standing up for vast experience, I would beg to differ with both Bob and Tony - and have on many occasions with respect to hosta planting protocols, as I would dare say they represent a narrow view on many areas, with only tissued cultured plants. Same goes for the enlightened professor, who may not know what a hosta is.

Having roughed up hosta roots for the better part of 50 years and needless (and shameless) to say, still have much of that original stock still growing, you may want to re-consider your experience base.

Those who have watched us divide (and conquer) hosta clumps are always amazed at how we treat them - and how they grow afterwords.

I still marvel at book and university knowledge bases in many areas such as plant propagation - not saying Bob or Tony don't have vast experience, but in this case, neither grow in the field for specific reasons. If you do, and want to divide roots, cut them with a knife, bounce the root balls, let me know why you wouldn't.

Bruce, the hosta root cutter, who uses a sharp, knife and bleach and often cuts the heads off the poor little buggers

Was this a "loaded question" to get some response going?

Root girdling of hosta certainly takes place in potted hosta - someone could post photos of same if needed. Seen it for many years, normally from not "stepping up" potted production stock to a larger pot, while fertilizing and watering under good soil drainiage conditions.

Happens to both field-grown divisions and tissue-cultured divisions potted up and left over time.

I have cut roots off potted hosta many times to thin them out and prevent girdling after planting in soil - normally takes one-two years for large potted over-rooted hosta to die back because of that.

Often the sieboldianas and plantagineas will succumb to girdling - or you see their new thick surface roots come right out of the ground, looking for space to grow.

One of the main reasons for fairy rings.

Bruce

Bruce, lets take the older clump first.

If you divide it then the divisions will grow more root mass total than the original clump because each division can develop on its own with room for both root and foliage.

The interior of clumps are shaded out by the rest of the clump. When you examine a plant notice that each leaf tends to avoid being shaded by those leaves above. Any shaded leaf will suffer from lack of light so a clump will show this problem as it grows in size.

Root girdling with trees is a specific thing, one root will circle or grow over another root and kill it. This simply isn't the case with hosta, the roots may compete for space but do not grow around another root and kill it.

As much as I like you it just ain't so.

A factor leading to "fairy rings" is the root mass in the center of the clump that must feed at a deeper level where there is less soil food. The most productive part of the soil is that area just below the organic matter (mulch in whatever form) and that area is lost to the center of the clump.

IÂm doing some research on the "fairy ring" phenomenon that deals with this interior of the clump problem. When you next have a chance to examine the interior of a fairy ring you will notice that the crown is a bit lifted and the interior eyes are sort of woody.

I made a little volcano of ground up leaves over one these "fairy rings" last fall and it has produced more eyes in the center. This mulch volcano was about 2ft tall in the center and covered the outside edge of the outer crown. My conclusion at this point is this massive amount of organic has decomposed some of this woody crown allowing new eyes to form in the center.

I probably have divided over the years at least a 1000 mature hosta clumps with girdling roots that were so intwined they had choked off growth to many other roots and caused the plant to decline, just like a tree. A cause of fairy rings for sure, in spite of other causes like fertility and water movement. Most clumps with center die-off have fully matted old root masses in the center.

Also common for hosta fortunei cultivars that jump off to a great start but the roots start to go in instead of out and around - commonly found when someone plants a potted fully rooted plant into a clay hole, with or without mulch. The roots have no where to go but up and then they start going around and around... Just like this thread....

Those that have known me and my gardening, know I have been a proponent for too many years, when a plant is in decline, dig it up, beat the roots (Ken, should I start up the hosta tree beatings thread again, or the Hosta Colloege crowd pleaser of throwing the clump in the air and letting it fall 15-20 ft!) and replant by flaring out the roots adequately. of course cutting off the excess root masses to stimulate new root growth.

How many hosta clumps have you found this way in your gardening? They often grow so well by themselves, when in decline we don't want to examine them for the real cause of decline.

Bruce

Those that have known me and my gardening, know I have been a proponent for too many years, when a plant is in decline, dig it up, beat the roots (Ken, should I start up the hosta tree beatings thread again, or the Hosta Colloege crowd pleaser of throwing the clump in the air and letting it fall 15-20 ft!) and replant by flaring out the roots adequately. of course cutting off the excess root masses to stimulate new root growth.

That's exactly what I do and have had great luck. If a plant sits and does nothing for a few years for me I dig it up and beat it on a tree or throw around the yard some and whether A plant is a living thing and like all living things, we have a self defense system.

I'm going to give it a shot then! I have a couple that aren't thriving so what the heck!

Teresa

"A plant is a living thing and like all living things, we have a self defense system."

Hahahaha, I think I'll go out and dig up all my hosta and stomp on 'em.

Hosta bondage!

I rough up the roots on everything I plant. It loosens them up a bit and may stimulate them to grow.

I've heard that you need to slap around pepper plants in order for them to produce more peppers, lol.

It's good to know that if something isn't growing how you'd expect it to, just dig it up and give it a good shaking. Let it know who's boss, LOL.

Janet

The genesis of an "Old Wives Tale" is here and now, there are biological explanations for every experience you've observed. You come with time in the saddle and credibility that will gain support; the problem is reasons arenÂt the ones you believe.

Yes, hosta roots compete for available space and food but do not girdle. The next time you remove a hosta from pot notice the roots tend to move toward the edge of the pot then move down the side looking for space to move out in a circle just like the roots would do in the soil. Hosta roots spread out in the soil somewhat larger than the canopy, which is what the roots are trying to do in the pot, you will also notice that there less roots directly under the crown in a pot. IÂve come to believe that wide pots are the way to grow hosta in pots but have no personal or academic support for this idea or belief. Now we have another potential "Old Wives Tale". Butch said; "wide pots", I have a reason but not proof.

Bruce, you are to smart and experienced to use anthropomorphic explanations and magic tricks to teach the horticulture of genus hosta. I call on the ghost of Jim Hawes to appear in your dreams tonight.

And, cutting hosta roots off is simply wrong.

Anthropomorphism is the attribution of uniquely human characteristics and qualities to nonhuman beings, inanimate objects, or natural or supernatural phenomena. Animals, forces of nature, and unseen or unknown sources of chance are frequent subjects of anthropomorphous. The term is derived from two Greek words, á¼Î½Î¸ÏÏÏÎ¿Ï (anthrÅpos), meaning human, and μοÏÏή (morphÄ), meaning shape or form. The suffix '-ism' originates from the morpheme -ιÏμÏÏ or -ιÏμα in the Greek language.

I'm an old wife so I get to spread "Old Wives Tales".

Janet, my grandma (a really old wife) said shaking tomato branches stimulates flowers to set fruit. Repotting hosta usually results in reflushing and my seedlings put on a growth spurt after up-potting cuz I always spread the roots horizontal, gentle or not. I prefer to think it's my touch and hovering that cause my plants to grow well. It's more fun not to get too serious or technical about this stuff.

I am not but I do have an "Old Wife" with a pretty nice spread!

OooKaaay!

Now I think we've been given TMI. LMAO!

;-o

ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww

*poking out my eyes*

What you been smokin' there eo?

I don't know about all that jazz you're puttin' down,EO,but I always tease the roots out if they are really root-bound,and never had a problem yet. To each his own,I know what works for me! Phil

You have to dry the hosta leaves properly then break them into little pieces. The paper industry has been kind enough to produce little papers about 1 in by 2 in to put the little pieces into then roll them up and twist off the end and light her up, I prefer H.'Fantasy'.

But in a pinch I'll smoke anything, I'd smoke chains if I could light them, I'm a chain smoker.

One of my favorite stories is the young mother preparing her first family meal of baked ham and all the fixings.

She cut off the small end of the ham, which caused her mother to inquire why?
Daughter: "that's what you always did Mom".
Mother: "that was because it wouldn't fit in my pot if I didn't"

Im not too old a wife, but have moved my hosta about, from house to house, digging them up, potting them up, replanting into the ground, digging them up again, and potting them up, moved again, planted them all out again in the ground and they have increased in size over and over and over again. Each time they have been roughed up, roots ripped and cut back when too long. I also grow seedlings now for about five years or so, and they put out new top growth each time they are potted up to the next larger sized cups. I also rinse the roots and soak them a bit when I replant them each time.
Works for me.

"I also grow seedlings now for about five years or so, and they put out new top growth each time they are potted up to the next larger sized cups. I also rinse the roots and soak them a bit when I replant them each time."
justaysam

That's great would you want to set up some side by side trials?

Cut half the roots off of one set of transplants and keep all the roots on another set and report back? Most seed growers have a lot more culls than they need. If possible chose similar size culls and let them have one season. Twenty of each should give good results.

Justa did you read the gravitropism thread?
I offer that repotting changes the relationship to the center of the earth.

http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/hosta/msg0919475925561.html?2

No, I have not read that post, but will bookmark it and read it when I get a chance. One question, why would I want to "Cut half the roots off of one set of transplants"? I grow them in the upside down cups to get the BEST root systems I have ever seen. Think I will take a look at that link, I am missing something here...

" Each time they have been roughed up, roots ripped and cut back when too long."
Just

I read this to say you rip and cut roots.

Do you mean you do or you don't rip and cut roots?

EO, this post is getting a bit muddled. Justaysam was talking about moving Hostas in her garden from one residence to another, and mentioned up potting seedlings as well. Now you take it further and assume everything is potted up, and roots are being "ripped" everytime. She never said she was ripping or cutting roots from transplants, or seedlings.
You gotta do what you gotta do if they are going to move with you, and if they come back every time, she's not doing it wrong. Just different than you would do, but not wrong.
Rox

"roots ripped and cut back when too long"
justaysam

Hostarox, Didn't make that assumption at all but I was referring to the quote above about "cut back when too long".

And, I'm not suggesting anything wrong, only asking if justaysam would want to do a side by side test with culls and see if there is any difference cutting roots back? It would be interesting to know if or how much difference might be observed, which is what I would do if I grew seedlings.

And, of course I do what I have to do and have just stuck a spade in the middle of a clump and cut off a 1/4 or 1/2 and planted it without any long-term problem in fact that is exactly what I did today to clump of H.ÂJune because I wanted a potted June. I donÂt care what happens to the clump I drove the spade into or the potted section I cut off. They will be fine sooner or later.

My point is this; if you damage or cut off roots then you will have less plant the next year than if you captured all the roots undamaged.

My wife tells me "they thought you were criticizing their watch" and I reply that I didn't intend to "I just wanted to know what time it was" when I asked that insensitive question, "what time is it". She never knows what time it is but she has more friends.

The only root pruning I have done intentionally was with growing seedlings under 24 hour lights.
Sometimes when potting up a seedling from a small 8 oz cup to a big 12 or 16 oz. one, I have found some clusters of very fine roots all coming from a single fine thread of a root, and I want to have mutiple thick roots. I have tried on some bland looking seedlings, cutting the big mesh off, because I can see some big fat root tips looking as if they are waiting to grow until needed. It seems to work fine, so I have made it a habit now of getting rid of fine roots when I see some fat ones showing. I want to stimulate the "dormant root buds". I am no longer afraid that I will kill the plant. I won't do this if I see nothing on the horizon. But that plant with no root buds showing is a wimp anyway, so I don't really care.
I also pull off the dying but not yet dead leaves, seems also to stimulate growth of new leaves.
Not scientific, but more info to put under your hat. I wouldn't necessarily extrapolate that to the garden.
Dave

"dormant root buds".
Dave

This is a new term to me, have examined crowns for dormant buds but never have looked for or knew of something called "dormant root buds".

Can describe where to look and what they look like, do you by any chance have a photo or can you get one?

I'm looking for a seed grower to cut roots on half of a group of green culls and leave the other half uncut.

Dave, I went out and dug a little green volunteer and washed off the dirt and looked for dormant root buds, didn't find anything of course it is very late in the season so the plant may not be making additional roots.

I have rooted parts of hosta with no apparent roots to find them make new roots and grow. I haven't looked in a while but as memory serves there were what looked like bud eyes that became roots. Is this what you are talking about?

EO, you mention monocot roots in your first post on this thread. I get it. I have read the paper Bob wrote with great interest about how a monocot vs a dicot lives and grows, concerning the roots. My thinking is, that is the way the plant (Hosta) would carry on if it were in a perfect environment, year after year. It would grow much larger if given more of what it craves...water, nutrients....etc, and less if it didn't.
What I want to know is if anyone has done any research to see what a Hosta (monocot) root system does if put under sudden duress, like a killing frost after the eyes have emerged on the crown, or being tromped on repeatedly by the guys that roofed your house. Is there actually a "defense mode" that will make the plant fight a bit to carry on?
What would matter more in the long run...a bigger root system, with a smaller crown, or a smaller root system with a larger crown?

Yes EO, the earliest sign of the roots starts with a nub that looks a little like the dormant buds. It is oriented downward, and often pierces a leaf base.
When I am changing to a bigger cup with seedlings, I peel the older leaves off, and often see that they look like the base has been stretched or torn by either widening crown growth, roots, or new eyes.
Most of the time it is roots, because I rarely get second eyes growing before flowering. They are usually white, but if planted too shallow so light is hitting them, can get green. You can tell the difference easily because the dormant buds point up and have green coloring while these root buds are white and point down on the same plant.

"What would matter more in the long run...a bigger root system, with a smaller crown, or a smaller root system with a larger crown?"
Hostarox

My belief is that there is a loss (IÂve explained how I come to this position) but I can't find any research and I haven't done any. That is why I'm trying to enlist a seed grower to try some work on culls. If I still had hosta in tissue culture I would take 18 (the number per flat) and cut the roots off and leave 18 alone and see what would happen.

"What I want to know is if anyone has done any research to see what a Hosta (monocot) root system does if put under sudden duress"
Hostarox

No I donÂt have research. That is exactly my question! I assume all plants have mechanisms to respond to stress, my question is; does stress create a loss. If so, then donÂt create the stress. Plants have signals to grow, bloom and go dormant etc and I assume signals to respond to stress and survive. Same question is there a net loss from stress?

"You can tell the difference easily because the dormant buds point up and have green coloring while these root buds are white and point down on the same plant."
Dave

I should have known that, duh? Now that you point it out I have seen exactly what you describe.
Would you like to try a little experiment to bring data to this question.

No formal research projects, I don't have enough time to do what I'm trying to accomplish as it is!

EO,i am new to this forum.i have been growing hostas for over 30 years.i love your atttude.