Thanks for your help, suggestions and encouragement. I'm sorry I wasn't able to respond promptly. We put out a new product this week - this involves a great deal of extra time and work for everyone. Getting back to the subject - Spruce: I'm sure you think I'm a nut case or an idiot but some of these concepts are difficult to grasp and internalize until you observe them firsthand. I've read about forest succession and how it unfolds over hundreds of years but I've never observed it nor have I tried to create a forest. I'm trying to find ways to bypass some stages - as you say "trying to grow a forest that is like a mid or late stage in the forest succession, without going through all the stages that lead up to it." At times, I've been confused by conflicting advice - for example, whether to use loblollies as a nurse tree. In any group, people will disagree. It's my responsibility to find more information to resolve the question or clarify the issue. I asked our forester this question. He advised me to use loblollies as nurse trees until oak seedlings are 3-4 feet tall - once they reach that height, the pines may cast too much shade. If this happens, they need to be removed. In another thread, you also recommended using black locusts as nurse trees, chopping them back as needed, so I did order black locusts. Given the type of shade they cast, it may not be necessary to remove them - I'll wait and see. Alabama & Sherry: Thanks for the posts about hardwoods growing under and around pines. I was beginning to think I'd lost my mind. I've decided that trees grow differently around the country and under different conditions - and that there are no one-size-fits-all answers to questions. Sherry: Why do I think you just got your 2008 FF catalog? So did I but I'm afraid to open it - too much going on right now. The seedlings I ordered from the NC nursery arrived 3 days ago - 2 weeks early - and they sent an additional 200 Atlantic white cedars that I didn't order. I've called but haven't heard back from them so I'm trying to keep the cedars cool. You said you ordered two nyssa biflora/swamp blackgum from FF. How would you describe these trees? I ordered 20 nysssa biflora seedlings, in addition to 50 Nyssa sylvatica seedlings. I have a wet area and thought N. biflora would be happy there, along with bald cypresses, Atlantic white cedars, maybe some red maples. I'm not familiar with the the Jefferson Elm. I'm working on an order from Mail Order Natives (I am a nut case!). In addition to Carpinus caroliniana, I'm looking at A. saccharum var. floridana, Acer saccharum var. leucoderme (Chalk maple), and Pistachia chinensis (Chinese pistache). She has Magnolia asheii - that's been on my list for years, and Magnolia macrophylla (Big Leaf Magnolia) but I think they both need more shade and protection than I can offer right now. I really need some big fast growing Magnolia grands to screen my neighbor's sheds across the pond. QM: I haven't received the seedlings from Indian Mound yet. They should arrive around Feb 15. But NC sent seedlings two weeks early so you never know. I'll let you know when they arrive. Take care, Pam

Semiarundinaria is quite vertical. There are many unconfined plantings of it in the area, that have not spread all over - this is true of other species used here also, the outcome varies with the situation. But any running bamboo can suddenly start coming up yards away from the mother clump, making the installation of barrier essential where such an occurrence would be a problem. All the full height Thuja occidentalis cultvars have approximately the same vigor. The 'Smaragd' will be so much more prevalent than the others because it is what people are looking for. The only problem with it is it is more prone to poor soil drainage than most others, resulting in frequent internet questions about part of a hedge of it going brown. I have also seen it browned in sections by mites during hot weather. But this latter development is probably not especially peculiar to 'Smaragd'. 'Oregon Blue' is merely an otherwise more or less typical Chamaecyparis lawsoniana with a saturated blue coloration. The vigor of some local specimens suggests these are programmed to grow into towering trees just like thousands of other examples of the species in local plantings. In the wild the species is interesting for growing just about everywhere within the comparatively small range it occupies, unlike many other wild tree species now confined to small ranges - and also being limited to specific site conditions within those ranges. So no, there is no particular soil moisture regime etc. that must be provided for it - numerous other cultivars of C. lawsoniana are still all over the place on local properties, despite the inroads of several different root pathogens in later times. The main thing is to place it in soil that drains well - and is not or does not become infested with one of the water molds that kills even specimens that have been in place for decades.

I totally agree bboy, that was one reason I started this post. He did such a nice job on everthing else, I don't understand why he tried to squeeze in such large shrubs. He used three total, two are elsewhere in the yard. I like the idea of using another Heptacodium, thought of that myself earlier. While it may not fully block, it will provide some screening and they are such nice trees. Or... Someone else mentioned Viburnum Prauge. I could replace all of the Portguese Laurels with V. Prauge, maybe adding a fourth near the Heptacodium. These would be more in size with my property and thus less pruning. I read these could be grafted or layered, tell me what does that mean? If I decide to order four of these I need to be sure what I'm asking for. Thanks again.

Dax and Dave, Thanks to both of you for contributing. I've been thinking about the 'Fastigiata' - and will consider the points made. It may not matter that it spreads open as it ages - but need to think about that. I'm also wondering if it may not get big enough for my needs - have seen some places say 30 ft ht at maturity (others say up to 50-60) and this is for Fastigiata. hmm, will need to check specs again. Dave, I've seen links of it before but thanks for posting your link, it was helpful of course. This is quoted from one link I saw (link below) - ''Pinus strobus 'Fastigiata' - a narrow, upright vased to ascending columnar form, with branches that hug close to the central leader in youth, becoming more spreading with age, maturing at 60' tall by 20' wide'' at link below from Ohio State. Dave, are you saying 'Stowe Pillar' would grow 10 ft in 10 years -or were you referring to a different tree? Dax, good reminder about the time it takes trees to get established and then start to shoot up. I googled Larry Stanley and didn't find anything specific - also other than back to GardenWeb sites here. Any help on that appreciated. Is Larry Stanley a wholesaler or informational/educational/blog? Still thinking and considering but need to make decision soon since I would like to plant this spring. Here is a link that might be useful: link for Pinus Strobus and var. 'Fastigiata'