(zone 3~4) Sorry for the late response after your prompt one, my last semester of college was a rough one and I don't get online much now that I am out (hopefully....still waiting on the diplomas to be mailed out). Anyways, I should clarify a couple of my statements. Yes, Chester takes a lot of damage in this region my plants are young but the person I got them (I'm in a cold valley and she is on a hill) has had flowers every year that I have been there (said she had no damage at all a few years ago when we had an extremely warm winter). I have dozens of flowers on Triple Crown this year which is comparable to Chester but sadly my Darrow has yet to produce a single flower and I have had it planted longer. Part of this is the effects of erect vs semi-erect habit (Chester gets a little more protection from snow than Darrow does here). Darrow may very well be more hardy in your region than Chester but for me it is not. I'm actually tempted to try some zone 7 trailing brambles (have tayberry/boysenberry/newberry), with mulch and snow cover (if were lucky enough to keep it through the winter like we have the last two years) they could be brought to flower, all ya need is one, if the cross works.... For self-incompatibility I am mostly pulling from memory of a bramble breeding book I rented for a summer and have not physically confirmed this with wild types. But I believe the reds had most of the self-incompatibility bred out of them. Also, since blacks generally only have limited primocane fruiting it seems likely that the ancestry of Niwot's wild black raspberry parent had a cultivated red in it's background or even a wild red somewhere which lead to the self-incompatibility of its sibling release (the first wild purple I remember finding had/has pretty decent primocane fruiting have used it in a fair amount of my crosses). The germination rates I mentioned of 30~50% is with scarification and several months of stratification i peat moss. However, before my last post I had planted some stratified but unscarred open pollinated blackberry seeds, all were under-ripe which may be of importance. Prime Jim and Prime Ark 45 seeds were also froze and frosted numerous times (which keep them from fully ripening). Black Satin had a poor but acceptable level of germination for this discussion, Prime Jim was the worst of the three with only 3 germination out of a couple hundred seeds but Prime Ark 45 had several hundred germination out of one to two thousand seeds perhaps a 10 to 15 percent germination rate. So it can work but genotype may play a big roll in germination rates of scarred seeds. The ripeness and frost/freeze would also play a role. Also for long-term storage seeds would not kept "moist" or be stored in peat moss but I would think that the proper humidity level would be crucial (think they have been stored for 20 yrs).

Thanks for your responses, you two. I appreciate your helping me. Never visited Arrowhead Alpines. I used to go to school in East Lansing and now am in Saginaw. I took a look at the sites you recommended and I was a little overwhelmed by all the cultivated varieties available. I generally prefer wildtype varieties or cultivated varieties that have been around for a long time. This year I may depend on the generosity of friends and family for plant starts and cuttings - turn about is fair play, right? I don't want to spend a lot of money. Happy Monday! Joe

I know of a wonderful Thai located in Cali..He has 2 nurseries one in Oceanside and one at his home..All his plumeria come from Thailand ..His dad owns a plumeria farm in Thailand..most of the stuff you see on ebay is his ..and these sellers are going to his farm and selling it on ebay..I was there this weekend and came home with 6 beautiful plant ..all blooming so I know what I got ..He had Purple Jack's and Elsie in full bloom..Just breathe taking..I also found his pricing excellent ..that's why I got so many ..Anyone intersted please contact me..I will give all the info.. Sonia

Your choices for grasses are great. Love them all. Just make sure you plan for the future and don't have them planted too close together. Growing grasses from plugs may take several years to have a desired effect, so buying started plants in 4' pots might be worth looking into. Heck, if you or someone you know has a clump of these grasses they are willing to part with you can easily divide it into 4 parts using a shovel or saw and have mature-looking grasses by the end of this Fall. Black-eyed Susan and oxeye are great, but I question their longevity. They are prolific seeders, but that adds to maintenance issues. If low maintenance is a high priority, go with taproot plants. They generally live a long time and are pretty easy to maintain. Plus they don't need to be watered since the roots go deep. Perhaps establishing the grasses should be the first priority. I wouldn't spend a lot of money on buying plugs of black-eyed susan or oxeye unless they are very cheap. Buy an ounce of seed of each, throw down in bare spots after everything else is in, and you will have more than you know what to do with of both. I collect both varieties of seed each year and it's remarkable how easily the seed grows. I literally have thousands of black-eyed susans just from seed planted last year. Here is a link that might be useful: Improved Ecosystems