Hey bboy...and thanks for your reply over in 'shrubs'! By now you may have surmised I am working on that area with the two big alders. Amount of shade is difficult to describe, but medium bright light all day: Zone 23, facing north/ a little N.west. The tree would be not under or between the alders, but next to one and a bit above on a short slope. Also next to the neighbors fringe-leafed,open tree. The roots would be in shade with the mid to top getting a few hours of full afternoon sun and several hours of brightly filtered sun. On the floor of this area it's too dark for Hydrangeas and the agapanthus once there bloomed very poorly. I love the dark red leaves of the plum and,unlike Forest Pansy, the purple leaf is a sure thing and it is *readily available at all local nurseries. Yes, they are over-planted and have their issues, but love that color and availability. I do really appreciate your input. I have wrung my hands in indecision too long and need to get moving on this! *a vicious circle? we buy what's available and they stock what we buy? No fun reading and researching and seldom finding anything but same-old in nurseries.

The only info I can find is close to what you say: "roughly a foot a year", but there are some people saying its reached over twenty feet tall in ten years..... At the same time I have read that site conditions really can make or break growth. On shallow dry soils it apparently grows shorter wider and slower. On its prefered habitat (floodplains, which is why it can take wet feet in your yard) they grow taller more narrow and faster..... Maybe I just answered my own question? lol ==>>> yes.. you did ... how any given plant does ... in your little slice of heaven .. in your soil .. in your climate.. in your sun ... in your microclimate ..... with your winter... is frankly.. unanswerable ... except by your experience.. after the fact .... i would sum up your info ... to think it will grow at least one foot ... with potential of two ... what more specificity could there be.. with all the unknown variables??? grow the seeds.. have fun .. and if things dont work out in say.. a decade or two.. cut the tree down and get on with life ... just as you would with any underperforming annual or perennial ... too many peeps think that just because its a tree .. its not disposable if things dont work out.. the only real difference is the time scale ... are you really not going to have fun with a few seeds.. just because in 20 years it might not all work out .... ??? .. i think not.. go for it .. damn the facts and reality .. lol ... eh??? ken ps: you do know.. that canada is NOT kentucky.. right???? ,,,, lol ... and that most likely.. you wont get coffee off the tree ... NO little cups of tim hortons lattes hanging off the branches in fall .. lol This post was edited by ken_adrian on Thu, Apr 3, 14 at 11:55

Thanks esh and qq... I drove around town yesterday seeking different sizes of Drakes to get a better idea. esh, you are right...they do seem to have a sort of "lollipop" look for awhile, as they get tall quickly. That's ok with me, so I'm relieved on that point. Someone in the LA/MS forum (I'm from MS and my hubby is from LA...hence our desire for the St. Augustine) told me that one they had grew 15 feet in 5 years. qq -- This concerns me a little, but the weird thing is, when you go to sites like UGA Co-op, it's listed as a recommended tree. I guess maybe every plant is invasive in one place or another? I hope I am not doing the wrong thing though. I'm down to a list of about 5 trees that would work in the space and only 1-2 of them are available. Chinese Pistache was originally my first choice, but you just can't buy them around here. I'm a relatively new (just in the last 5 years or so) gardener and it drives me about nuts to look in all of the gardening magazines and see all these great looking new plants and trees...and then not be able to get them locally.

I have grown lindera benzoin, clethra alnifolia, several different deciduous rhododendrons plus 3 evergreen rhodies, and ilex verticillata among others from liners (rooted cuttings). The ones either planted in garden spaces or that I grew on in pots for a season and then fall planted did much better than those I planted directly. If I were to do this again, I would definitely plant in pots for the first summer before planting in a non-garden spot in early fall. Particularly when grown on a slope which tends to have less even moisture courtesy of gravity, having time to grow decent sized root balls before planting in less than ideal sites will help survival rates as akamg mentioned. Once you plant them, mulch well and pay close attention to water needs (test soil moisture levels regularly and water as required) right up until the ground freezes. I would also spend some time looking at the needs of your choice of plants and the moisture levels of the site. IME Ilex verticilata and Clethra alnifolia do better as far as growth rate and blooming when they are in sun and good moisture vs. in shade and drier conditions, and a bit of reading tells me that pinxter bloom azaleas are also lovers of moisture. IME most of the plants I grew from liners grew fairly slowly for the first two seasons in the ground and then started almost doubling annually after that for several years if they were in spots with reasonable soil, even moisture and good sun for their needs. As I recall, all the ones you listed that I have grown grew at about the same rate as long as I grew them in good situations for their needs. A few I put into more shade than ideal, and so those grew slower than others. The azaleas that I planted on a steep slope have done well, but are well mulched and have shade during the hottest part of the day while still getting good light for blooming needs.