my experience with them was poor to say the least ...they pretty much TOLD me to take my biz elsewhere ( see Daves Garden for feed back on them and my comments)In their responce to my statements in Daves G. they actually lied about what I had said...OH well .Any way can't help you on their larger plants...they didn't want my biz. But $130..shipping to TX from them is WAY too much even for a five gal and this time of year they could easily semi bare root it and ship no problema ( good luck with that request) and regular ground is fine since it's dormant and weather is cool ...this price seems MUCH too high!!How much is the tree wghat size and what kind. There are several JM dealers that carry and ship larger stuff that I think would be better if you let us know what you are getting and more specifics. I think with that much shipping alone on the line ( let alone the tree cost) you disserve a JPEG...but as I found out LOTS 'o LUCK with that request with THEM ...anyway let us know more details ..David

What variety do you intend to purchase. I live close to them and have visited there and seen all of their larger plants as well as having purchased a number of larger plants for landscapes.

I'll give you my opinion if you let us know the variety.

MJH

I've ordered tubes, gallons and one 5-gallon japanese maple from Forestfarm. The tubes were suitable for planting in 1-gallon pots, but I think that for the same money (shipping from Forestfarm or gasoline for a 100-odd mile drive each way) I got a better deal for the same price at a nursery in Newcastle, CA (they do NOT do mail order). Still, if California nursery weren't available to me (and it isn't when road conditions aren't good), then I find Forestfarm's tube-sized Japanese Maples to be a decent price.

Both of the 1-gallon sized Japanese Maples I purchased from Forestfarm were very generously sized, and well worth the money--comparable to what I would have paid in California for trees of the same size (there, in 2-gallon pots) figuring either shipping or gas money.

My only complaint about the 5-gallon Japanese Maple I purchased from Forestfarm was that I didn't expect to have to wrestle a full-sized tree through my house and into a container in the back. I'm sure the UPS guy had a few things to say about wrestling trees in boxes, too... The box was easily as tall and as big as I was. One of my coworkers has ordered several 5-gallon trees from Forestfarm, and her husband calls her when they arrive at home. His message: "Your FOREST is here!".

Forestfarm's packaging is extremely secure, and plants arrived almost untouched. That "extremely secure" has its downside, though. You might want to invest in tactical nuclear weapons to get through Forestfarm's packaging, or at least a boxcutter, spare blades, a screwdriver or pry bar, and a big strong person to help with the un-packaging.

HOWEVER....shipping trees to Texas (especially 5-gallon trees in containers) is going to be ex-pen-siiiive from either coast, so if you can find a closer dealer than Forestfarm, I would suggest you do so. I'd also be worried about the heat in Texas being too much for a Japanese Maple to survive.

There may be a good nursery in the Kansas City, MO or St. Louis, MO area that has a great selection of Japanese Maples, and that's where I'd order from if I lived in Texas. Since Atlanta and Athens GA also seem to be horticultural hotbeds, there might be a suitable nursery there, too.

Lisa

"my experience with them was poor to say the least ...they pretty much TOLD me to take my biz elsewhere" Well, I guess that's not so bad - It would have been worse had they sold you a plant you weren't happy with. But I appreciate you sharing that.

The 130 is the price for the plant with shipping included. And that doesnt seem too bad, local nurserys sell 3 gallon jap maples for 70 bucks,and the selection isn't too good. For 130 I could probably buy a bigger plant here. But my selection would be limited to Bloodgood, Emperor 1, Waterfall, or something like that.

I haven't decided which tree I want, But the only other japanese maples I have are small and young, so I want one that I can put right out in the landscape. The place I have picked out is probably the best place in my yard for a japanese maple. It gets several hours of sun but shade during the hottest part of the day.

My only criteria are: in ten years less than 15'. reasonably heat tolerant, interesting, something I couldnt get around here.

For example I was thinking Chishio Improved, Beni Komachi, Oshu Shidare, or Tiger Rose.

Any other places I should look? Thanks everyone

t

I'm in the same situation with a very limited variety available locally.
Here is a link to a listing of sources and you can also check-out the user feedback for each.
I would strongly recommend calling/e-mailing a source you're considering to get their recommendations for your locale.

Here is a link that might be useful: Japanese Maple sources

That is not an too high if it includes the tree...that was not how I read the original post ...sorry ...It still depends on the tree and size and branching...you could concievabvly get a stick in a big pot not just from these bozo's ( my prejudice here ) but from many dealers. I would be glad to give up some of my sources if you email me privatly at the above email...I would really decide which tree you want first... and one that will take the heat etc of your area...I honestly don't know if any of the ones you named would be ideal or not or what part of TX you live in and what climate you have...it really varies in that state!!My gut feeling... and it's just that ...the 1st and 3rd would be the best for you...both not whimpy trees with good growth patterns and seem to do well in many climates. David

Another source not in the link I posted above and they will ship larger trees.

Here is a link that might be useful: Wildwood Maples

I've ordered most of my maples from Della Conway (after reading posts by David about her) at http://nurserygirl1.tripod.com. The maples are beautiful, carefully & securely packed (I understand what you mean about dissembling a well wrapped JM), I know what I'm getting (she provides pictures of the plants), & they are well-priced-I work at a large garden center that carries a good variety of JMs & I still prefer to get most of mine from Della. I've been extremely pleased with all the trees I've gotten so far (10, I think), & will continue to order until I run out of room (wait a minute, I'm already out of room!)...Linda

Here is a link that might be useful: JD's backyard nursery

I had very good luck with Della. She also has access to some of the more rare maples such Tsuma Gaki. I find Forest Farms shipping charges expensive for anything but the tubes which are a good value. I have also had good luck with Greer Gardens on other plants. I have not ordered maples from them but their other plants when considering price, size and shipping cost wasn't bad.
David

Greer is ok if you use Diane or Mr greer to pre check stock and pick out something nice for you personally...they are honest with their opinions but don't jpeg...their crating has gone south a bit but most boxing is OK nothing special as it use to be excellent. They don't seem to grow alot of their own stuff but buy alot now wholesale so this time of year you'll have slim pickings. Della is excellent but as a broker you have to wait til she goes a shoppin' and give her a list to pick from since she may or may not have all of what you want but you'll get some stuff and its usually good quality 4+ years.So if your patient and have a list of stuff you can prioritize it and she is great . The sizes on her stuff is down a bit of late since her supplier is selling out of so much of the larger stuff but still large compared to most other dealers ...David

Here is the deal--There are very few places that grow all of their stock from beginning to end, or are involved with the plant from beginning to end. Maybe you won't care about this and it is no different than buying from a local nursery, but when you mail order from a specialty company there is an implied "expertise" that comes with the purchase. This is not usually the case these days with maples.

Greer, Wildwood, Forest Farm, Eastwood, and a number of other e-tailers and mail order nurseries buy or broker plants from numberous different sellers each year. Tons of liners from my friend in Eugene, Oregon go to Easwood on the east coast and Wildwood in northern California. They do some of the their own and bring in others. Even Mountain Maples outsources for some varieties to meet customer demand. Greer may only get a few maples from each wholesaler and while Forest Farms does do some of the liners or tubes they do not do all.

The problem in all of this is that the quality is always different, the sizes are always changing and you can't count on anything. The people selling the plants are inbetween the grower and the buyer and don't like to have to stand up for their product. I don't doubt that David has had it out with Forest Farms. I have been there and you are risking quality buying a 5 gallon plant that they will refuse to remove the soil on and over charge you for shipping. I don't talk to Wildwood anymore and I have to shop in person at Greer because we can't talk by email anymore after a bad year of dead plants. I have to see their plants in person as so many lack quality control in ever sense. I might as well add World Plants that is also a borderline seller believing that because they sell so many plants at such small sizes and at such reasonable prices that they don't have to stand behind their product. If it dies it dies and it is the buyers fault. Don't get me wrong I have some more rare varieties from them, but there has to be some happy medium.

I have talked to Della before and she is nice but it is too far to ship her plants to Oregon and it doesn't makes sense as there are enough maples here. But, I think people like her are where maples are at. She only brokers larger plants, sends photos, does her own quality control, and the key, CARES ABOUT THE PLANT. There are others like her and those are the people you need to find. The big online sellers don't care about the plant and when it dies, they don't care about you. The exception, Mountain Maples, they have great customer service but you pay up front for it by paying almost double the going rate for plants. So, when and if you plant perishishes, then can afford to replace it.

Don't be fooled, maples bought anywhere today die more frequently than people will admit and the whole industry is bitter that they are having to deal with the mess. Think twice before buying your 5 gallon maple at that price as it could be dead the same spring. Is Forest Farms really where you want to spend your money? Will the include the shipping charges in the refund when your tree dies? If they replace it will you have to pay shipping again?

Robert at Mendocino Maples was doing good business a year or so ago. I don't know how his plants were last year, but you might talk to him. He does bring in a few plants from an outside grower so you want to ask for one of his own grafts on his rootstock. I think he will take good care of you.

I don't mean to be negative about all of this, but you have to know that when it comes down to it, you are responsible if you make the choice to buy the plant without seeing it. Get a photo and find a seller who is preferably the grower who will take care of you.

Good Luck!

This is a very important discussion and one I tried to start in a thread at Dave's and maybe here a while back with NO interest.
Most folks here ARE NOT experts or professional growers and rely on buying stuff through etailers or large nurserys. Everything MJ has stated is absolutly true ... Many dealers DO NOT grow there own stuff ( I found this out thinking that jm's were so "special" that these guys all grew their own as cottage industries...WRONG) . Secondly many do ebay and do mass produce stuff themselves but do so slopily. Getting a one on one relationship with the owner or someone who knows the biz is absolutly a prequisite to successful purchasing... even the mass producers are ok if you have a good "contact".
Many of these folks got into Jm's as a love but it has now become a money thing and that is ok but neccessitates a differnt approach on your part.
This all being said ... if you are into cheap stuff, small stuff, and arn't particulary concerned with quality and take a wal mart outlook on JM purchasing your internet and specifically ebay is your oyster go for it and ignore this post...you have nothing to worry about..."not that there is anything wrong with that" ;>)
But if you are going for quality and want special stuff then I think what I have said is especially important. I tell folks save your money and buy a bigger quality trees that are special rather than 10 tube trees or 1/2 year grafts...especially if you live in colder climates...yes you have more $$ to loose but a better chance of recieving a healthier tree with an established root system that can stand up to your area conditions.
And if you have a working relationship with a etailer you will likely get a much better tree. David

I posted this once and it kicked out so if it duplicates sorry ...I don't want to monopolize this thread but you can't edit here like at daves so I am adding this ...MJ is also correct most dealers DO NOT offer gurantees except that the tree will arrive in good condition and is viable (alive ) which is a problem when it is dormant . Greer use to offer a seasonal gurantee but now doesn't just a shipping gurantee as above.If you want a guarentee as MJ says you gots to pay for it or buy locally...
Also you should be aware that greer is offering their annual approx 20% off gift certificates thru Jan 15...usable on trees ( not shipping books etc) for two years ...and you can use it yourself . Since they have a large seklection and some rarer stuff you may want to check this out on their web site home page http://www.greergardens.com/

David

For anyone who thinks that this discussion in anyway "slams" a seller, please reconsider. The idea here is that whenever we buy a plant site unseen we buy the name. In maples we do it because we want this or that tree or becuase it is rare or new and it even applies to a common plant like Bloodgood. If you order, even a common plant online or by mail, you are buying the name.

When you buy the plant (vs the name), someone is vouching for its quality, its life expectancy, its trueness to name, and that it is worthy of being sold as labled and described. As David pointed out, most people in plants go into plants, as we all have, becasue they loved them and somewhere along the way they saw the chance to make back all the money they had invested in a collection by propagation and sale. Very few people that have gone down that road have managed to balance the dollar signs with being true to the plants they love.

The problems is that many people today view maples, and plants in general, as disposable. They do not know what to expect or how long a plant should live. They don't invest in a specimen, they buy a liner. If it lives for a few years great. If it dies I am not out the money. In reality, 70% (probably much greater) of the liners and small one gallons sold in maples will never make it to be 10 years old. In the hands of the grower they could be grown up to size, but in the hands of the buyer they will be a fleeting enjoyment.

The person selling you the plant should care as much as you do about it and know more than you do about it. They should want you to have it for many years and want it to provide endless days and night of joy as it has for them. They should inspect it, talk with you about it, and exceed your expectations when the plant arrives. When you find this arrangement, you will feel good about your purchase and have made a friend along the way.

Take the time to find the right grower, choose the correct plant for your site, and spend the money to buy a larger stronger plant that will live on for you for many years.
If we take those requirements into mind, most of the sellers in this thread and in the business will not make muster.

Cheers!

one question regarding FF maple size. What is the height of a tube from forest farm, meaning the tree itself. 2' or so.

osprey

Tubes from FF are usually what one would consider a liner or a band. They are usually grafted in the same year they are sold (meaning last 12 months), but if they are kept for a while can be close to what would be a small unestablished one gallon.

So, the size is usally mainly composed of the original scion which is 3-6" and then it has been pushed with fertilizer so that it usually has some long some forced growth and maybe some minimal side branches starting.

Ther is not yet any form to the plant and it will require full training and care to resemble the variety. The size or growth you will get with a tube or liner is usually the first full and true round of growth after grafting. This flush is often rangy and lacking in use, so you may have to prune much of it away.

I would say 12-24" on most tubes, composed of mainly one shoot. Because it is usually forced, you will never know what you are going to get. It is not so much the top growth that is the issue, it is that the rootsystems on their tubes are hit and miss. I have always felt they have pretty good size on the tops for young grafts, but they usually miss with the roots. My experience is that the root systems on the tubes are under developed and usually fail to sufficiently fill the tube. The root system that is there has not had great vigor in the past. One problem is that their potting mix is very heavy and they keep the plants on the wet side.

Hope that helps. Are thier tubes still under $20 are are they up to $24 or so? What has happened in the world of maples is that people are making an equivalency between tubes and one gallons. So one guy sells his liner for another guys one gallon price and the maples are the same. There should be a difference between liners and one gallons and the price should be as such. The difference in root mass can be huge and it means a great deal to the plant to have the roots of a full one gallong sized maple. An average liner or 4" pot can take 2 seasons in your possession to make a good one gallon based on root mass.

MJH

For more discussion and customer ratings search "garden watchdog" on the www.

Huh? High mortality rate with Japanese Maples???? That hasn't been my experience, regardless of source, and I've killed all KINDS of plants. Maybe I'm too dumb to have the plants die on me or somethin', but everything from Home Depot mystery varieties/seedlings to fancy named varieties grow just fine for me.

The ONLY cultural problem I've had with some of my maples to date has been "boot pruning" when the tree-pruning guys have managed to step right on a limb in the course of removing branches from the other trees in my yard. This year the previously boot-pruned trees are getting big honkin' garbage cans put over them and staked in the ground (the trees are still that small that they will fit in big trash cans if I bend the limbs gently) when the tree guys come. The trees in containers I just drag out of the path of the tree guys.

I believe my gramma didn't have any trouble with her bonsai Japanese Maples, some of them quite large, until she became too ill to care for and water them. Then, duh, they died in the dry heat of a Sacramento summer without any water.

I'm not saying anyone who can't keep maples alive is an idiot--far from it. But there could be other things going on that are killing the tree other than the quality of the tree itself (too much heat at night, a critter or critters munching roots, an evil tomcat using the soil as a pottybox, the tree not "liking" where it's been planted, geez--a million things).

Some mirror gardener in a parallel universe garden probably wonders why I can't grow rhododendrons and camellias, although it's not for lack of good stock or lack of trying on my part.

Lisa

It depends on the size of the plant you buy. The older the plant the lower the mortality rate. Overall, maples have a very high mortality rate when taken as a whole by 10-15 years of age. You can do quite well with the nursery standard varieties that are usually a bit less fussy, but when you take in to account all the named varities, the mortality rate is very high. with liners and tube sized plants, commonly purchased online, the mortality is even higher. This takes into account problems with rootstock, diseased scions, diseases in general, cultural problems, and simply bab luck.
I am glad you have good luck, but that is typically not the case extrapolated over the entire genre of maples.