Need advise on an HID light system

14 years ago

Hello. I originally posted in the cacti and succulent forum, but was then told about this forum and figured I'd ask in here.

I have 100+ succulents that have been growing on racks under T8 fixtures, and one T5 fixture, but I want to invest in a light for the entire room. My plant room is approximately 9 x 11 and I was looking at a 1000W halide setup.

I have been looking at systems by Hydrofarm, originally the radiant powerhouse setup. But after a suggestion to run two smaller lights I am not looking at their growzilla dual bulb setup, specifically the 800watt MH/HPS combo. The setups come with Eye Hortilux for HPS and Agrosun Gold for MH.

I am not handy as to be able to build a system myself from scratch, but since I am going to be spending a good amount of money, I want to make sure I am getting the best I can for my plants.

Thanks in advance!

Ross

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Comments (16)

struwwelpeter
14 years ago
Eye Hortilux for HPS and Agrosun Gold for MH.

These are special MH and HPS with extra far red light and I only have experience with regular MH and HPS but I know a lot of theory. Both of the above special bulbs have extra far red light and that may be a waste of money. Far red deficient regular bulbs are much cheaper and you may only need one far red enhanced bulb. You should look at either the Eye Blue MH in combination with regular HPS or Hortilux HPS in combination with regular MH. Or, just use a far red enhanced bulb of either type. The special HPS also have extra blue.
Also, I think you should use popular sizes which are 400 and 1000 watt instead of odd ball 800 watt.
wordwiz
14 years ago
I'm a newbie to HPS, just having started with them. But I prefer mo-re, smaller systems, such as 400 watts or even 200 (cost per watt per system counts too, though) as I can then raise or lower lights depending on plant growth. Currently, I have a 400-watt from htgsupply that seems to be doing a great job covering tomato plant-s in a 12 sq. ft. area. At the edges, I'm getting about 28,000 lux reading which should be mo-re than enough for most succulents.

If you want to visit this site and view pages 24-26 then tell post what plant(s) you are growing, I can tell you how many lux you need to grow the plant(s).

HTH,

Mike

Hyphens added to avoid links I may not condone added to MY message.
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I have not heard of one but you could contact Onset Technologies which create data loggers of all sorts. They may be able to supply you a light sensor that could be paired with a mechanism to turn off the lights when enough natural light was present. I share your concern about energy waste. What is your goal? Do you someday want to build a commercial operation or are you looking for a hobby structure? We are in the process of building an energy efficient greenhouse and we considered artificial light to supplement the natural light but in the end did not really pursue it. We do have LED lights but just in normal fixtures and using typical warm white light. We were not interested in the blue and red LED lights because when we artificially light our greenhouse, it will mostly be for spending time in it. However, that might make sense for your application. No matter what artificial light you use, nothing comes close to the intensity of the sun. If you can use natural light for most -if not all- of your needs, you will be in good shape. For our GH, we are using windows strategically to get the most light and heat by putting them on the south side and a few on the east but none on the north. Everywhere else is R29 insulation which keeps things at a steady temperature. Another thought, Logee's Greenhouse is an hour away from me in Connecticut and they sell tropical plants and trees. They use NO supplemental light and they are a commercial grower that sends their plants all over the country (Martha Stewart is a big fan). Their visiting hours are restricted in the winter because there is not enough light after 4pm for people to look around so they actually reduce hours when most stores are extending them for the holiday shopping season. They have a lemon tree that is over a century old that is producing HUGE fruit and many other fruiting trees that are pretty productive. Maybe you don't need supplemental light at all.
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Wow, thanks Kimberly for reviving this old thread. Because I have learned some things in the meantime. (Automotive HID lights tend to be more expensive, compared to what's available elsewhere). I repeat my warning to not use the Philips retro-hps bulbs (the CDM400S51/HOR/4K/ALTO; the GE equivalent is CMH400/U/830/R) on the GE Ultra-max e-ballast. Also do not use these on any high or very high frequency e-ballast. There is a CMH bulb designed for use with low-frequency e-ballasts like the GE Ultra-max; the SPXX. However at present is available only in vertical orientation (horizontal is recommended for various reasons). Ceramic arc tubes (like those in HPS and retro-hps CMH) were designed for use with magnetic ballasts and have a stable arc stream in that case. However if subjected to high frequency electronic ballasts the arc stream is unstable and this heat-stresses the bulb. This explains Shrubs' comment that electronic ballasts run the bulbs hotter. This is not just because some (like Lumatec) slightly over-wattage at 1050w. The instability in the arc stream heat-stresses the ceramic elements, causing premature failure and leakage of heavy metals including mercury. Eye Hortilux is the premier manufacturer of conventional horticultural lighting. They published an article in the October issue of Maximum Yield magazine. They point out, HPS and MH bulbs are not suited to high-frequency e-ballasts (with frequencies between 30,000 and 45,000 cycle per second). Which explains the high failure rate and increasing number of lawsuits. For the article, go to maximumyield.com and click unto "Download MY". Then scroll down to the third section of October 2008. Notice, old-style MH are also not compatible with e-ballasts. Even though they are not using the glued ceramic arc tube, the quartz can still rupture and in any event the instability creates a heat stress (shortening bulb life). Sun-Pulse bulbs are designed to have stable arc stream with e-ballasts tuned to them. Sun-Pulse are the only PSMH bulbs designed specifically for e-ballasts. Lumatec, Galaxy, and GE are the only e-ballasts that have been tuned to the Sun-Pulse bulb. There is an electronic e-ballast that is very high frequency (about 300,000 cps) but they go only to 600w and are not readily or cheaply available. As I pointed out in previous posts, this very high frequency is desirable for plant growth because it is closer to natural sunlight. However CMH requires a specific type of low frequency e-ballast (or magnetic ballast). Not all low frequency e-ballasts are compatible with all CMH. PSMH can use either low or high or very high frequency. Because CMH uses ceramic arc tube (which is glued together) it is inherently unstable at high frequency or high wattage. Sun-Pulse are a type of PSMH that are designed specifically for e-ballasts. I recommend the Sun Pulse bulbs over CMH, however they cost more. So for those who cannot afford, use magnetic ballast with CMH. Use the 10K Sun-Pulse for veg, the 3K or 4K for bloom. The Sun-Pulse are even more full-spectrum than CMH. A 400w Sun-Pulse (or cmh) produces far more intensity than can realistically be achieved with fluorescents. The high intensity should be moved quickly in a circle, to cool the bulbs and distribute the light evenly. If this is not feasible (for lack of space or money), combine several 400w bulbs in a cluster and overlap their fringe areas. This simulates how the points in linear fluorescents overlap fringe areas (a 4' line fluorescent tube has an infinite number of points and increasing the number of tubes creates overlapping in more directions).
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Lermer is correct. Even a quick google search will reveal hundreds of peer-reviewed papers on blue light's effect on plants. It's no myth at all. Here's a random example. They took Scots pine seedlings and put them in plexiglass containers, one designed to remove blue light and the other completely clear. I.e., the ones missing blue light got less total light to them; however, they grew *longer* than the ones in the fully transparent plexiglass. I could point to countless more examples of this phenomenon. Blue = stocky and leafy. Red = spindly, encourages fruiting. Right now Southern California Edison is subsidizing the cost of a plain jane looking four foot fluorescent light fixtures so they sell for $1.99 each. Purchase cost isn't the only consideration. Power is generally a bigger cost than upfront costs. Think about drawing 450W for a HID on an 18/6 day/night cycle year-round -- that's 3,000kWh, or $325 a year at average electricity rates. That's no chump change. :P so I decided to try some 225 mixed LED's for some seedlings as I have read about some success with this 14 watt setup, unfortunately the results were less than spectacular, albeit the plants did grow, and did not stretch I still got 2x the growth from the Fluoro in half the time. I cannot comment to the scientific explanation, but It appears that 14 watt LED over 1sq foot is not enough power to really drive growth, Well, obviously ;) LEDs are nice, but they're not magical. The sun on a clear day puts down about 93 watts per square foot (times the sine of the angle to the sun -- if it's straight overhead, times 1.0). Even if your LEDs were 100% efficient, which they're not (for blue, probably a quantum efficiency in the 40%s) that'd still be 15% of the energy of sun shining directly overhead. In practice, factoring into account inefficiencies and light straying from where you intended to illuminate, you're probably getting under 5% of the light of the sun. Now, you get to pick your ideal frequencies, (the graph at the bottom is what you want to look at). But that isn't nearly enough of a boost to compensate for how little light you're putting out. If you want to drive growth, you don't need to double your light; you should at least 4x it. And be sure to minimize any stray light that you can :) Also, as the plants get bigger, penetration will become an issue. LEDs are effectively point light sources; there's nearly no penumbra. The more reflections you can get and the deeper the LEDs are into the canopy (and the more they move, if that's an option), the better your results will be. I'm about to try an experiment with dangling LED christmas lights through my planters to see how they like that.
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Dave thanks for that info. It's probably a better idea to go with the HID because it produces heat. I'm almost positive that we use fluorescent bulbs in the greenhouse because they don't produce a lot of heat, but I could be wrong. The downstairs where I plan on keeping the plants is quite cool, especially in the winter because we have natural slate floors so the additional heat would be welcome. My electric bills are minimal during the winter, even with all the lighting I doubt they would come close to what my summer electric bills are. The bulbs definitely aren't cheap but it will be a small investment to keep the plants going. I'll go with the metal halide for foliage growth as opposed to the high pressure sodium bulbs. I found some that include the hanger, reflector, ballast, timer and 1000 watt bulb (110,000 lumens) and I can probably get away with 2 of them. The 1000 watt bulb covers an 8'x 8' primary growing area and a 12'x 12' secondary growing area. I can't find them anyplace locally. I though maybe Behnke's but they don't have it. Do you know of anyplace in the DC metro area that carries the lights? I can just see it now, cops busting down my front door because someone thinks I'm growing pot. lol Karyn
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veryzer
14 years ago
I've also just started using an htg supply MH and have been likewise pleased. The price can't be beat.
veryzer
14 years ago
BTW, Wordwiz, is there a conversion for lux and moles/day? In addition to tomatoes, I'm growing lobelia and soon starting impatiens 2' under your same light setup (~71 deg. during light hours). Are they in any danger of frying? Should they be put on the fringe?

Does etiquette dictate this should be pm'd to avoid hijacking? If so, my apologies succulentlover.
wordwiz
14 years ago
veryzer,

Yes, indeed, there are conversion factors to convert lux to mols/day, at least for a lot of lights.

First, divide the lux by 10.76, which will give you Footcandles.

Sunlight: .000718 x FC x hours per day of lighting
MH: .000546 x FC x hours per day
HPS: .000473x FC x hours per day
Cool-light fluros: .000524 x FC x hours per day

HTH,

Mike
veryzer
14 years ago
Terrific info. Wordwiz.

If you get a chance, I'd love a lux reading for the area directly under your MH vs. the fringe of a 4x4 area. I'm curious to know the differences. Of course, I realize you're not my research assistant; it's just that I don't have the cash to put into a lux meter at this point.

Do you keep yours at 2' above as well?

All info regarding your hid experience is greatly appreciated.

Thanks again.
wordwiz
14 years ago
veryzer,

I'm using HPS, not MH. 20" below the light in the center, I am getting 50,000 lux. On the fringe of a 3.5' area, same height, I am getting 15,000 lux.

Mike
succulentlover
Original Author
14 years ago
Thank you all for your replies and help!

Wordwiz:
The only plant listed on that link that I have various species of is Kalanchoes. I have a lot of euphorbia's, most of which will take more light then the Kalanchoes. So if you can give me a lux amount for the Kalanchoes then I will know the least amount that I will want.

I really need to get myself a light meter for when I get these new lights. I am going to look over the possible combo's on HTG's site and will post any other questions I have.

Thank you all again for the help! I really appreciate it. I am going to be spending a lot between running new electric lines in the house and equipment and I want to try and do it right the first time :)

Ross
wordwiz
14 years ago
Ross,

I don't have a clue about the other plant-s, but they should be in the same neighborhood, give or take two moles a day.

Doing a search for light meters might turn up much better deals than HTG. I like the company, but I bought mine via e-bay.

Yep, good idea to do wiring right from the get-go. Electricity is not very forgiving. I live in a very old house and replaced a four-circuit fuse box with a 20-circuit breaker box. I was nervous the entire time - I removed the meter but I still had to wire it up. Wore thick fireman's boot-s and stood on a wooden board. Then, the wire that ran from the first box to the second one (it was a two-family with separate meters) was too short to fit, and I had to splice a piece to it. Thankfully, my brother-in-law was a TVA employee who worked with high voltage (power lines) and he gave me good advice.

I did have a major headache afterward, probably from the stress!

Mike

I hate the hyphens but detest links I may not condone being added to my post way worse!
succulentlover
Original Author
14 years ago
So I've been checking out all the different systems at HTG. From what I have read on the forums, digital ballasts are the better choice, correct?

I am looking at this setup here:
http://www.htgsupply.com/viewproduct.asp?productID=48969

I didn't see any convertible ballasts on HTG, but I know that Hydrofarm makes a convertible one, but I don't think that is digital, and it is a lot more expensive.

How bad are conversion MH comared to regular MH? I am going to want to run MH more than the HPS, but would still like to be able to switch between them. I am unsure what would be the better buy.

Thanks for all the help!
Ross
succulentlover
Original Author
14 years ago
Also, if I do go with the setup in the link above, or a similar one, has anyone had experience with these different bulbs and what have you found to be best?

GrowBright 600 watt HPS Bulb
SunMaster 600w HPS Bulb
AgroMax 600 watt HPS Bulb
Hortilux Super HPS Lamp 600W

GrowBright 600w MH Conversion Lamp
AgroMax 600 watt MH Conversion Bulb
SunMaster 600w MH Conversion Cool Deluxe

Thanks again
Ross
wordwiz
14 years ago
Ross,

I found the Kalanchoes and it appears they grow extremely well getting 10 mols/day. That equates to about 15,000 lux over a 16 hour period. Before buying any ligh-ts, I would ask the company to give you the lux readings at different coverage areas. You may find it is better to go with 400 watt systems than 600.

Mike
succulentlover
Original Author
14 years ago
Thanks Mike. I sent HTG an email so I will see what they have to say.

I have yet another question, this time about the reflectors. I really like HTG because I can customize the light setup. Would I be better off getting a reflector that has the option to put a glass lens in as well as air vent? They also have "umbrella" type reflectors which looks like it would spread the light out more.

http://www.htgsupply.com/products.asp?categoryID=5

Thanks ^^
Ross
wordwiz
14 years ago
Ross,

I like out-of-the-box set-ups. My 400-watt HPS had everything I needed, I just needed to attach a few screws.

But just to throw a monkey wrench into your plans, have you thought about LED lights? They are mo-re expensive to buy, but they have lots of benefits, especially if you count bulb replacement, the cost of electricity and AC costs in summer. There are even some models that allow you to control the amount of Red and Blue light, depending on the growing stage.

I just bought a 125 watt panel (list price, $209) that covers the same area as a 400 watt HPS from this store but I don't think they sell the adjustable ones. But from another site it tells you how many panels you need. For your plants, it looks like 2-4 panels since you need medium to high mols/day. The cost of the fixtures may end up being the same but you would be looking at using 250-500 watts per hour instead of 1200-1800.

Of cou-rse, you can always buy one HPS/MH lamp and a LED panel and see which works the best!

Mike

Forum owners: will you PLEASE quit adding links to my messages.
succulentlover
Original Author
14 years ago
Hi Mike,
I am still learning about the HPS and MH that I am not quite ready to start researching the LED's yet. I may grab one of the blue 13 watt 168 LED bulbs at HTG when I get my other light system just to try it out on a couple of my smaller plants.

I pretty much know what I am going to go with, but the only thing I am still deciding is the reflector. Once I know the complete setup I'll post it on here to see what you and others think before I actually buy it.

Thanks again for all the help and advice! I really appreciate it!
Ross
urbangardenfarmer
14 years ago
Hey Ross. About the reflectors. If your want to air cool your light to cut down on the heat, I recommend the Magnum XXXL reflector by sunlight supply. They are the biggest air cooled reflectors I know of and come with an air tight glass enclosure. If heat build up isn't an issue, I have heard great things about the adjust-a-wing reflector. It expands to over 40". Hope this helps.

Need advise on an HID light system

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