Oh BTW, this may not be the most appropriate sub-forum to post a question like this on but different types of plants may grow untypically when compared to soil when growing in hydro, obviously. Oh and I just like the people here better :)

Hi ethnobotany!
Seen from my end, you have chosen and are at the right place ;-)

I guess I get your point and would in fact recommend to not only base or rely on a specific variety but trying a few. You are right, tomatoes tend to change their growing and branching habit with conditions and obviously with the "nutrition plan". Thus the right formula and a distinct pruning technique would be as important as the "brand". And yet, bigger sized tomatoes tend not only to grow tall and strong (instead of bushy and smaller), but are often of indeterminate growing habit.

You may find some variety that was selected and/or breed to grow bushy and small and yet produce bigger fruits. But such selection process and breeding mostly comes with some downside or the other. Often it is less flavour or less resistance of some sort. It's simply a matter of facts, that if some traits are emphasized through selection and cultivation, others will come short somehow during the process.

As for "heilroom" or less cultivated varieties, I have one recommendation that, although a compromise (as it is a true indeterminate variety), may be interesting for you. I found that OXACAN JEWEL is one of the few varieties that was although decently sized, growing rapidly, developing clusters with a lower height and being more productive than many other "famous for their taste" varieties. The plants I have grown over a few seasons were pretty heat resistant, proved themselves as hardy and decease resistant as well. The 'ancillary effect' that they look beautiful (bicolored) on top of it, made them become a true winner for me.

Then again (as suggested earlier) I wouldn't limit my choice to a single variety, whatever choice you will do in your case, - but using the opportunity to grow a few varieties to have a comparison for future ventures.

Good hunt and cheers,
Lucas

A few pics (sorry, need to register to the forum to view) ->

Here is a link that might be useful: recent topic @ INTER- Hydroponic Forum

Legend (a hybrid) and its cousin, Siletz (heirloom) produce 7-8 ounce fruit, are parthenocarpic, stay rather short and have very tasty toms!

I'm curious - what type of lighting are you using? The last test, I used HPS and the plants grew a little leggy. This time I'm trying MH.

Mike

@Lucas:
I will definitely look into the OXACAN JEWEL as a potential candidate. I joined the hydro forum to take a look at your pics. They looked like interesting tomatoes. I personally am fairly new at gardening and have apparently been deprived of having ever eaten any tom that isn't red. My counter reply is then, what does this variety taste like? Also, looking at the pics they didn't seem to be all that short? Though of course growing indoors and hydroponically may bring out the bushyness of the variety.

@wordwiz:
my lighting is a 400 watt MH bulb for vegetative growing and then I switch to a 400 watt HPS for flowering. I have recently purchased some CFL's for supplemental lighting underneath what looks like a jungle canopy.

I will look into the two tom varieties you have mentioned as well. I have no idea what parthenocarpic means, but if the toms are tasty I am game.

The thing is that I have very little flowers at the mid and lower points of my plants. I am not sure if that is common. Since most of the flowers are near the light at the top of my plants, they get burned and therefor are rather useless as far as producing tasty morsels. Now the trimmings do seem to be good for compost :)

Can either of you recommend prunning or similar techniques which will be effective at keeping the plants short?

oh and I hope the metal halide works out better for you mike! seems to me that the MH bulbs do much better for veg than the HPS does from what I have read and seen pictures of

squeeze the stem between leaf nodes and crush it. this will cause the plant to have shorter nodal lengths and thus a shorter plant. Plus it will make the stem a lot stronger.
I believe the term used was supercropping when discussed here previously, if you're inclined to do a search.
It works well to. where a normal tomato plant may be 3" between leaves, using this technique will bring that down to the range of 1".

ethnobotany,

Well, so far the MH is doing great. A couple of lighting experts suggested staying with the MH all the way, as tomatoes do not rely on photoperiods to bloom or set fruit.

As far as trimming and pruning, I did both in the GH this year. As soon as a leaf showed the least bit of yellow, off it came. And during the sun drought, my plants grew too tall - I'm talking about 8" nodes. I cut the top off and let them grow suckers.

I'm also trying another experiment: growing six tomatoes (4 are indeterminates) in ~9 sq. ft. They are in a raised bed, not hydro so won't have access to quite as much nuits/oxygen but are obviously outside.

Mike

Very nice Mike. I haven't ever heard that tom's don't need as much of the red light spectrum during the flowering stage. I need to do more research on that.

@grizzman:
Holy tomatoe! I took a look at that year old post on supercropping!! Wow, that is intense. The picture of the tom garden at the Disney place looked amazing. I think after I get better at supercropping and hydro in general, I may go ahead and try the weaving technique as that seems like a very good way to maximize fruit production as well as make the most out of my indoor space!!

@ethnopotany,

How to describe the taste of a specialty tomato like the Oaxacan Jewel? Although it is purely subjective, a good balance between acidity and sweetness with a rich tomato flavour. Well, yes, tomatoes should taste like tomatoes to be worth their salt.

When looking for more tasty varieties with even more "unconventional" shapes and colours, I'd definitely have a look at some Russian, Ukrainian and Balkan varieties (see link).

And as I said earlier, the "Mexicans" are indeed a compromise when considering their growing habit, as they are a so called indeterminate variety. Which means that they grow taller and taller if you let them. When referring to a "distinct pruning technique", I actually meant any of those that were mentioned afterwards and which you discovered on your own with the older thread... ;-)

As for a tomato formula, I'd strongly recommend to look into a specific and "real tomato formula" with limited Nitrogen and sufficient potassium, as well as appropriate trace element content. Growing habit (and branching to some extend) will definitely depend on N-content!

Here is a link that might be useful: pics of Russian and Ukrainian varieties

ethnopotany? why the sudden stereotype as a hashish smoker? haha just playing with ya Lucas.

What kind of tomato nutrient formula are we talking here? Do you have any suggestions like articles, websites, or even your own personal suggestion as to what kind of ratio to use? In my experience I have only used the Fox Farm Trio line of liquid hydro 1-parts. The FF nutes have given me tremendous growth rates but at the price they cost (around $50 for trio on ebay) they are barely worth using. Now what I like about the Fox Farm company is that they try and practice organic nutrients. Now I know that not all of their nutrients are completely certified organic, but whats important to me is that they at least use some kind of organic base such as earthworm castings.

So, that all being said.. I really want to try and formulate my own "organic" nutrients or even try the FF approach and simply consider the use of an organic base at the least. Lucas, I know you are more of a chemist but do you have any recommendations for an organic newbie? I figure I will get a brief understanding of the organic ways within your next post (I assume, lol. although assuming is not always a good route to take.)

I have recently seen these really neat "wormtopia" gizmos or at least that is what the Sunleaves corporation deems it as. Basically they are stackable shelves with spouts located at the bottom level to allow drainage. You insert table scraps, hair, newspaper, coffee grounds, etc. into the containers, along with a decent amount of worms (1,000+) and voila! You are making your own earthworm castings. The downside is the price tag on this ingenious designs which will run a man off crying about what could have been a match made in heaven... a whopping $125-$150 would get you a good one. HOWEVER, considering that I would love to have one and can get my hands on some wood I may innovate and make a creation of my own... ok enough rambling LOL.

As for the Russian and Ukrainian varieties, I am looking into those as of now. Using the inspiration of wordwiz I have ordered some Legends as they seem to be a good candidate for what I am looking for. Of course that doesn't mean I shouldn't go for another brand per say. I mean really, as much as I would hate to use my time to try another ; )

bump!

Hi again ethnobotany!
I don't mind the play as I am not that touchy, it merely was a typing error and I in fact stopped using 35 years ago LOL. I'll remember that accidental pun for later use, though ;-)

I am actually not (more of) a chemist at all, neither by trade, nor by conviction - but came to the conclusion that mineral based salts and chemicals (how would you call them best objectively?) are in fact clean and safe. And yet it's ideologically more complicated than that, as the manufacturing process is extremely energy consuming and polluting as well for sure (without the need to go into any details in this context). But isn't that the case with all kinds of stuff that surrounds us, including most of our favourite commodities, we wouldn't exactly be the first volunteers to abandon "including most hydroponic supply anyway..... "?

But yes, I guess I see exactly what you are wrapping around your head at your end and what your master plan might be. I have been doing worm casting (liquid vermi-compost) with modular "worm farms" some twenty years back and would do it again anytime if time and space would permit. It's one (good-one) of a multitude of choices you have got. It's all about choices and the time you can- or are willing to spend on something, anyway. In my case, there is a semi-industrial (yet organic) worm farm at some agricultural university nearby where I can get cheap liquid and compost.

There are other points that cross ones mind in a next step, when thinking "home made natural fertilisers or nutrient solutions" (instead of using the term organic). One is that you can't, or let's more like say you wouldn't mix both, natural and chemical ingrediants. Thus, if going natural you gotta give up all the mineral-chemical part in the first place. You don't absolutely need to do that, and yet it would be odd somehow if you wouldn't.

One more crucial point is that you have to move from "calculation" and perfect dosing, - to intuition, less control and somewhat random. I am not saying that it is a bad or hard thing to do and yet it may take much getting used to it.

If going down that road, there are several interesting and worth considering methods and means, you might look into. EM (effective micro-organisms) are still controversially discussed about there beneficial properties, but as a fermenting agent they are indisputably a good thing to use. Nitrogen isn't a problem as it is abundant in many organic substances and biomass of all kind. But to have sufficient amounts of Potassium, you have to "gather" it with specific bio-mass or ingredients that are exceptionally rich in Potassium. Seaweed extract (powder) is one of the key (additive) ingredients you would consider. If using manure, rabbit, horse, dunky and goat (elephant and some other exotics too) manures are the richest in Potassium. These are just a few examples how you would firstly need to find out about all dots, before you are able to make choices, to eventually connect them.

As for manufacturing extracts, teas and concentrates, there are also a number of options. Machinery and tools range from simple bubblers over air lift pumps to high capacity Vortex Brewers. You may go for cooking a "quick fire" compost or rather have the patience and only use naturally fermented 1 year plus matured "stuff", rich in beneficial micro-organisms and with more readily available elements and trace elements.

As you can see a whole new world and realm with multiple choices and options is opening here, waiting to be discovered by you! ;-)
Cheers,
Lucas

Here is a link that might be useful: Vortex Compost Tea Brewer @ YouTube!