howdy ~

all of my soil is clay - we sometimes call it 'black gumbo' b/c of how gunky it can be

1. Lasagna Beds: without risking serious back injury (either acute or chronic), TIME can be your best friend - use Ken's method, but on a much longer timetable - many more layers (12-24" of organic material, alternating browns and greens), over more time - lasagna beds have been extremely successful for me, but i've had to prepare them 6-8 months in advance - its *not* something you can do after getting home from the nursery & just before plopping the plant into the ground - with lasagna beds, i've been able to *completely* kill off bermuda grass without chemicals & amend the soil at the same time

2. Raised Beds: not feasible on a large scale, but for some, maybe exceptionally large plants or fabulous specimens you'd like to showcase, it can still be a wonderful option - then you fill the bed or planter box with you medium of choice

3. Drainage: this will be a problem with clay - many down here use peatmoss to break up the gunkiness - I prefer cocofiber

4. Separation: y'all have discussed heaving - clay soils shrink when they dry, causing *lots* of foundation problems here - I'm curious to learn what experienced hosta gardeners have seen with regard to how soil shrinkage affects the plant/roots

~ freshair

I had clay at my last house...everywhere. Really makes you appreciate nice black soil. This may be a long post, but I have a lot to say.

In hindsight...and my main bit of advice to you...I should have spent 3-5 years (or however many years it would take) amending the soil before planting (anything, not just hosta)...and I should have spent the time, $$, and effort to amend the ENTIRE planting bed, OR...raise the beds way up high with good soil.

Here was my big mistake...I only amended the hosta holes just where the planting hole was. I tried to go farther out & when I did it wasn't very far...a few inches maybe. Digging the bare minimum hole in clay was hard enough, ya know?...AND...hostas grow on the driveway, right? Growing on the driveway would be easier than in clay IMO.

If the clay had any workability, I would throw away the clay chunks and mix anything workable with compost.

The clay easily 'ate up' the compost, so in a year some of the hostas would sink down into their clay holes and have to be lifted due to not enough soil. Because of this, "tending" to my hostas did not mean walking around & enjoying the plants. It meant regularly monitoring the health of the plant, and digging/replanting.

When I dug up and re-planted it meant amending the soil all over again. Spent a lot of money on bagged compost because I couldn't make enough to keep up. If I would have dug a huge honkin' hole & amended really far out from the hosta, I think I would have had a few less worries.

Doing it the way I did, my hosta were more susceptible to squirrels and other surface-digging pests. Everything was clay and it was hard. Come up to a hosta...softer & squishier soil than everywhere else...you bet they are going to dig right there. Root sections would be exposed and/or displaced to the surface. Squirrels would plant walnut and buckeye seeds within inches of the crowns. I'd dig out walnut shells regularly. Disturbing roots is always a setback to some capacity.

When I dug out a hosta and some roots made their way out of it's amended hole and into the clay, consider the new roots 'goners'. Soil was too hard & sticky to allow roots to release with the rest of the plant. The clay was so hard to dig, that attempts to excavate the new roots in the clay were not even worth it.

The water issue was not pleasant. Because I dug out clay in plant spots only, visualize the planting bed like a muffin baking pan. Where does the water go when you pour it on top of the muffin pan?...it spreads and lands in the divots. Once the water was in the divots, it would disperse into the surrounding clay, but pretty slow. I was on constant watch for root rot because of that and lost a few.

I also learned that I had to regularly water the entire planting beds and keep the clay lightly moist at all times. I had a moisture meter, and I was constantly digging experimental holes to see what the moisture was like below the surface. When clay dries out it's like a brick...literally...and repels water. Keeping clay slightly moist will allow it to take in more water...but there was and art and science to keeping the moisture at a good level...never too wet, never too dry. I remember I used to pray for NO rain because it was easier to water myself and keep my system going. Didn't want Mother Nature messing with my water schedule.

I hope I'm not a downer to your day. I'm listing out problems & maybe you can come up with your own way of dealing with potential problems & know what to look for if your hostas are not thriving.

I did grow hostas in clay, and many did quite well but it took a lot of work & learning. I'm thankful for my experiences with clay, but even more thankful my 70-year old current house doesn't have clay.

Gayle

Gayle gave you great advice, I wish she had posted it 5 years ago when I started gardening in clay, I would have followed every instruction to a tee. As it stands, I spend a lot more time improving the soil in new planting areas than I used to - I foolishly thought a lasagna bed could be ready in 1 season. Whn you have clay - it is easily 3 - 4 years before oyu have "good" soil unless you do a lot of tilling and amending along with the lasagna method and then tilling is defeating the purpose of trying to lasagna the easy way LOL!

So anyway, yes, clay is a horror to garden in. Plan on watering a LOT even when you just got rain or it is about to rain but be cautious about it becoming water-logged. I actually lost hostas that were in the ground in an area I thought would be okay because they were in standing clay slop for part of last year. Good-bye Ocean Isle and Phantom, two I really terasured, because the clay was too wet. :-(

If I ever decide to move, number 1 priority at new house will be decent soil, which means I probably have to wait until my kids are in college since school has moved to a distant second LOL!

Alexa

I also have pure clay under the first four or so inches of topsoil that was added when my house was first built. Every garden that has been added here started with a major soil renovation. I dug out 12 to 16 inches of the clay, hauled it away wheelbarrow load by load and then backfilled with dozens of 40-pound bags of top soil, compost and some peat moss thrown in for good measure, tilling it all up to a wonderful mixture. A lot of work, but has paid off tremendously both during the initial planting and in subsequent years, as I can easily remove, add, move plants without having to dig new holes and amend soil.

About five years later, I got smarter and realized that I could have accomplished the same thing by simply pulling off the sod and adding the layers of top soil, compost and peat moss above ground, using my usual rocks to form the edges. Duh!

Last year, I decided to expand the section on the south side of my house. Unfortunately, my gas line runs right through this section, and I was unable to do any substantial digging or tilling. And since it was next to my house, going up was not an option either. So I compromised by digging out (yes, I had the gas line marked first) very large areas for each hosta - about 2 to 3 feet across, depending on the mature size expected for each plant, and 2 feet deep. Then I backfilled with my usual mixture. My hope is that the holes are large enough to allow the roots to grow to their desired state without hitting the clay. It's year two, and so far things look okay. But I added a few ground covers this spring and had to deal with the clay in those spots, so adding plants will be very difficult going forward. And I will be on the lookout for the types of issues that Gayle brought up. Again, this would not be my recommended approach but was necessary due to constraints of the specific location.

Good luck - clay soil is a beast.

ditto the others: gayle's response is excellent - each of her descriptions are fabulous - *loved* the muffin pan analogy of a by-the-hole amended bed - her diagnosis of "goner" roots that had extended beyond the amended area is perfect

in general, just get ready to suspend purchases for this area & spend a lot of time and money amending the soil on a whole-bed basis

~ freshair

I think I've mentioned it before,but all I have here in western NC,is red clay soil. But,it isn't just hard packed soil. It gets amended every year by falling leaves,so it doesn't even act like red clay. There are tons of earthworms in there,and I can't even dig a new hole without finding some of them. Because of this,I don't even fertilize any hostas. Phil

I have a mixed feelings now. I wonder if perhaps I gave an incorrect picture of my situation. I was able to plant about 20 hostas in the period of an hour, so the soil was not THAT hard. In some place, it was harder than others, so maybe those holes took 5-6 minutes to dig and plant where others might have taken 1-3 minutes. And there were earthworms... maybe 2-3 per hole, that I saw.

I am now wondering if perhaps there is just more clay in this area than other areas of my yard. But certainly not ALL clay. If it were clay, wouldn't it have been more difficult to sink my shovel into the ground? I mean, with only an average effort, I was able to sink the shovel into the ground (the 12" or so depth of the shovel), with only a few wiggle-step maneuvers.

Just to satisfy my own curiosity, I've started one of those jar soil content tests. The sand layer has settled and it looks like the silt layer is settling now.

So, there were 25 or so hosta that I planted yesterday and I have at least that many more to plant. So, the notion of "suspending purchases" is one I cannot do as these babies are now out of their pots and into the ground. It's getting to the hot time of year and I cannot fathom having 50 potted hosta on my patio all summer whilst I wait for the beds to do their thing. And there is NO WAY I have enough room to stick 'em into my existing beds.... at least, not all of them.

So, now I am in hyper speed mode. I have the 2" of finely ground leaves and a little medium/fine pine bark mulch that I can mix into the backfill for the holes, but it sounds as if I might be better off to suspend planting until I can indeed get some more organic matter?

And, if I'm going to go to the trouble of tilling in the amendments, should I take out the ones I planted yesterday, till in the amendments and replant?

UGH!

Melissa,I have no idea how much land you have in which to plant hostas,but it seems to me you should have slowed down in your purchase of more hosta than you could plant! I plant all my hostas with just a hand trowel. I've never had soil that I had to use a shovel to plant them. I'm not saying you should quit buying more,and more hostas,but if you're like me,finances keep me in check! I may get 3 more hosta this year,but that's about it! I only have half an acre,but most of it is too steep to plant on. Just MHO. Phil

Maybe a photo of your soil will help the more experienced folks give a seasoned opinion.

It was easy for me to know that my clay soil would not support any plants for any length of time - red, hard as a rock when dry and very heavy when wet. A clear line where the topsoil ended at 3-4 inches and the clay began. No signs of earthworms. My soil renovation was a lot of work, but when completed allowed me to plant immediately. Given your description, it sounds like your soil may be in better shape, so maybe you can avoid having to go that extent. Here's hoping that's the case!

Phil... I started this bed last summer and I have been purchasing for the sole purpose of this particular garden. There is plenty of room in this garden for what I've purchased.

I will likely slow down in the next few years, but given that I've put in over 300 and this is my 4th year, you can see that I am very much enjoying adding to my hosta collection.

I have 1/3 acre and if I had my druthers, nearly every inch of it would be gardens or paths thru gardens.... that's the only thing I really want grass for... paths between gardens.

Over time, I have full intent to convert our entire backyard, but with an energetic soon-to-be-4-year-old, we have to have play space. In the meantime, I basically have one more spot to convert to a garden. And maybe that will happen in the next 2 years.

thismelissa said: "I was able to plant about 20 hostas in the period of an hour, so the soil was not THAT hard. In some place, it was harder than others, so maybe those holes took 5-6 minutes to dig and plant where others might have taken 1-3 minutes. And there were earthworms... maybe 2-3 per hole, that I saw."

One year I came home with 12 hostas and it took me 7 hours to get them all in the ground, not counting hauling the rejected clay chunks to the street, final cleanup, and watering in. Sounds like your clay is not extreme.

Just FYI, I had earthworms in my clay too. The presence of earthworms is not a good indicator on whether clay soil is gardening-friendly.

I would take the info presented and just be aware of what happens with clay...make adjustments necessary for your site. I find as long as I'm aware of the worst-case scenarios, I can always know what to look for and be pro-active.

Thanks for the nice comments about my post. That yard was definitely a learning-lab for many different things.

Gayle

Melissa, I moved an Elegans that had been in clay 4 years - big fat roots, very long and shallow with very few fine roots. I assume it adapted.

Paul

Melissa,

I have soil similar to what you describe. My gardens for the most part are/were 12 to 18 inches of very heavy black clay and topsoil.

When I started gardening here 10 years ago my next door neighbor, who had been collecting hostas for 25 years at that time, offered me a dozen large (wheelbarrow sized) mature fortunei, ventricosa, sieboldiana, montana, lancifolia, and divisions from older named varieties, to make room for new introductions. He was in acquisition mode big time, so I got a wonderful start on my gardens from him.

I planted them like gayle0000 did, making (albeit huge,) hosta-sized holes, improving the soil in the planting area, digging another huge hole, etc.. From digging those holes and wrestling the hostas into place with the help of my then-teenage son and his buddy it was more than clear that the soil needed a lot of help.

Over the next many years until now I did a sort of lasagna gardening (without knowing it was that), spreading bales of peat, mulching 4 to 6 inches deep with shredded oak leaves every fall, covering bare soil with newspapers or cardboard topped with bark mulch to block weeds, tossing the coffee grounds around the gardens, spreading compost around and between the planted hostas, and recycling my homemade potting soil every 3 years into the gardens. It has made a remarkable difference in the soil over time.

Whereas we literally needed a pickaxe to start the original planting holes, now I can relatively easily (for a 60-year-old) dig a new planting hole with a transplant spade and lift pretty large hostas with a 4-prong fork.

If I could start over, I would remove the clay soil, double dig each bed, raise the bed level, and start with good soil, which I did last summer when I removed two beds of perennials-run-wild to plant new hostas.

Still, those original hostas are giants now and the soil around them is plant-able with little need for amendment, in the areas that I improved from the top down.

My gardens were all nearly unworkable clay when I started in 1998. Today, they all have beautiful, workable soil.

I used TONS of compost...I bought humus in bags from Walmart, it's cheap and worked great. It was backbreaking work double digging all of those beds, but the effort plus time took care of the clay. Any time I re-planted an area, I would take the time to incorporate more humus or compost...it made every job big.

There was a soil conditioner that was very expensive which I found at Bachman's in 20 or 40 # bags. I believe it made a HUGE difference, probably even more/faster than the Humus. It was in the 3rd or 4th year that I re-dug my gardens and mixed it in...I was really getting tired of that clay! Probably mixed more humus in at the same time, knowing me. My gardens got overgrown and were unmanaged the 5th and 6th year, as I was ill. When I went back to working them again, I had beautiful, friable soil that is now a pleasure to garden in. Very occasionally, I find a hunk of clay, but it's usually near an edge of shrubs or something that didn't get worked much with the humus or the soil conditioner.

Bachman's has a good article on working with clay...to their credit, they don't try to sell you the conditioner and state that the jury's still out on that. I think it worked wonders, but since I did a lot of humus, too, it was probably the combination. And, somewhere along the line, I think I put gypsum in there, too. Gypsum is usually quite cheap.

For the conditioner, I'm not sure if the brand was Shultz, or not, might have been Turface (Profile) or something else. In fact, I think the Turface people may actually sell the product to Shultz.
bachman's link: http://www.bachmans.com/Garden-Care/divHomePage.html?cnb=GardenCare&categoryCode=02&pageIndex=_pageIndexToken_workingWithClaySoil

Here's a description of the Shultz product, I nabbed it from the Amazon site for you:
Instantly improves any soil! Turns hard-to-work clay soil into a loose, rich growing medium - permanently. Adds thousands of storage spaces that hold air and water in nearly perfect balance in the soil. Clay Soil Conditioner improves drainage and aeration in heavy, compacted clay soils and helps improve water and nutrient retention in dry, sandy soils. Made from 100% natural fuller's earth, this unique mineral is kiln-fired creating ceramic granules that work to improve soil structure. Just one application lasts year after year! Clay Soil Conditioner? is a stable mineral that will not break down or compact over time. Use at the rate of 15% by volume: (1 part Clay Soil Conditioner? to 6 or 7 parts soil.)

Here is a link that might be useful: another review for soil conditioner

Well (deep subject)....

I decided to suspend planting yesterday and today so I could do a home-based soil test.
Though the jar has yet to fully settle, it is painfully evident that I have more than 50% clay in this soil.

So, I've decided to proceed in 1 of 2 ways...
1. Call Canterbury Downs tomorrow and inquire about the composted manure that idiot raved about last year. If I can get a bunch of that, I'm going to amend the heck out of the beds. I'm not sure if I'll till since this new bed is right next to the irrigation system manifold and there are a LOT of lines that come together in one corner of the bed.

2. If I cannot get my hands on the free stuff, I'm going to do my best to dig large holes (pretty much to the point that each hole will touch the neighboring hole. As I remove the soil, I intend to throw out large clumps of clay and the stuff that has some merit, I'll mix with some pine bark mulch, some peat, some leftover potting mix, other misc. organic matter and whatever bags of organic matter I can get my hands on for cheap.

The bed I planted on Saturday night.... I guess I'll go back and do the same thing with it once I'm done with the other half that's yet to be planted.

Incidentally, here is a pic of a hole (about 12" wide and deep) that I took tonight. Again, not at all hard to dig in... about 3 step-wiggle motions and I was all the way in with my shovel.

Oh, Melissa. Your soil looks very much like what I have dealt with during the past few years. That reddish brown stuff? Kiss of death for plants -- hard as a rock when dry, big ol' sponge when wet. Amend, amend, amend. If you can't get your hands on the really good stuff from Canterbury, you might consider buying some 40-pound bags of compost/manure at Home Depot for around a buck or two a piece. Hand mix if you are unable to till. A lot of work now, but will pay off in spades down the road. Been there, done that -- with no regrets. (And red wine and advil do wonders for the muscles afterwards.)

I have clay soil. I started with 3 hostas, and just amended the holes. After 3 years, didn't see much, if any increase on the hostas. Then one winter I was going crazy and ordered a bunch of hostas online. I decided I wanted to have great looking hostas, not just so-so.

So I pulled out the hostas that were already there, expanded the bed, and rototilled in lots compost and some peat moss. I can't believe what a huge difference it made. The hostas are growing great since they don't have to try to expand their roots into rock hard clay soil. The 3 hostas I already had really took off - they were finally happy!

I've read many threads where folks say that tilling is unnecessary; just place the compost on top of the soil and let the worms work it through. However, I had tried that and it didn't work. I ended up with the top 3/4 inch of soil being nice, with rock hard clay underneath. Tilling is the way to go.

Deanna

Melissa...just wondering how it's going with the clay and your planting bed?
Gayle

Hi Gayle. Thanks for checking in on me.

I did suspend planting in the 2nd half of the bed and I'm glad I did cuz I was able to focus my efforts on some other projects I'd put off till I had that bed planted.

Later this morning, I'm going to Canturbury Park (a horse track) to pick up some composted manure. Once I have that, I'll feel more at ease about amending the clay-ey bed.

I'm not going to till since there are a lot of irrigation lines in that bed and I need to be able to 'feel' where I'm working. So, I guess I'll do a kind of double-digging.

I'm hoping that I'll be able to get at least the right half of this bed done this weekend with what I can pick up at Canterbury. I have to work 4 days next week, so I don't want to have this project sitting around all week while I'm working.

Will update when progress is made.

OKay - I have included the advice from this thread (with a little editing) and put it on the FAQ. Great idea Ken!

Alexa

OYE VAY!

I started double-digging this bed tonight. I MAYBE got 10% of it done in like 90 minutes. I seriously think my wrists and shoulders may fall off in the process.

I have GOT to get my hands on a tiller and figure out some way to work around the sprinkler lines.

UGH. Clay SUX

We bought a tiller 5-6 years ago. It's gotten a LOT of use and has been worth every penny.

devil's advocate here on tillers... A lot of organic gardeners have moved away from the use of tillers. A couple of problems with tilling...

1) it brings up weed seeds that may have lain dormant for a long time... basically, most seeds more than a couple of inches deep don't germinate - until they are brought to the surface. People who till their vegetable garden every year find themselves weeding a lot more than those who weed it well and mulch and, especially, use raised beds.

2) most tillers do not actually till as deeply as it appears. Most of them look like they are tilling 8 or 10 inches, but a lot of that is "air" and really the tilling is maybe half that. Only a few are powerful enough to really get down deep.

3) the weight of the tiller tends to create a hard compacted layer just below the tilled soil... defeating much of the purpose of the tilling.

That being said - amending a clay bed by tilling one time might be an excellent plan for mixing it all up... a human can only do so much double digging!

I just know that in my vegetable days, I did so much better when I quit tilling the whole thing every year and moved to raised beds which I avoided ever stepping into. I still avoid walking in my hosta beds as much as possible... a big fat man can compact a lot of soil in a hurry...