Steve and I have been upset for a few days now about this.... I have been sending out the email to other people I know trying to drum up support for the meeting.

Hopefully the societies and the plant sale will be able to continue there no mater what.

Hope to see some of you at the meeting .
D`Ann

Need to get together alot of plant people and fill the place. Call the Presidents of all the Plant Societies.

What are these people thinking???

Someone should get a petition going, email it to all and we can print, sign and mail.

Does the University of Florida have anything to fight them with? They are the one's that control the Extension.

Tropicalfreak

Go to the environmentalists and get their help.You may have a chance with Global warming being SO important.
Find some adults whose lives were touched greatly by 4H!
PRAY PRAY PRAY!!!!!

Thanks so much for the heads up! I've taken classes there and I rely on them for all kinds of garden help. What would happen to Gene Joyner? I don't understand; this is nuts. Are they saying the Extension office is under utilized? Thanks for posting this. I'll pass it along to my garden club, neighborhood association and folks I know will have plenty to say about this.

Julie in WPB

INteresting.

TO answer a few questions, Gene Joyner has decided to retire in December this year (this was made know early in 2006), so he'd be minimally impacted.

And, Cooperative Extension is non-tenured staff of hte Univsersity of FLorida, but it is all financially and administratively burdened by each respective county.

ALso, Cooperative Extension's mission is to relay the research information of only hte state land-grant university (here the U of FL), not of federal or other agencies. It is only when and if someone within the cooperative extension offices at state or local level determines if he/she wishes to include info from other state agencies (i.e. FLEEPC Invasive's list, which I might add has been inappropriately used by Master Gardener program since 2003 in Palm Beach County). THus, it is UF info/data that is disseminated, and only occasional other "perceived worthy" non-UF info that will be lauded. Heck, the cooperative extension will contradict UF professors' research and recommendations if it is done outside the UF system OR is published outside of a UF/IFAS logo/sponsored project.

Needless to say, I am really surprised that this actually came up in the budget process paranoia. I do, however can see how the whole Extension Service facility on Military Trail would get nailed, though. Many many known "within the system" known wastes of money, resources behind the scenes that commissioners and many others are aware of and have complained, or asked and actually were turned away by bad attitudes/ineptitude at that facility. So, indeed, interesting what the perception by the greater community/powers-that-be now have after the past 5-10 years.

I think, if all else fails in the attempt to save the entire department, that if the county demands something be cut, that certain programs be salvaged (such as Master Gardener Program and Fmaily and Consumer Services), and perhaps 4-H be relocated and then refinanced in the western part of the county.

I do think Mounts would have a much better time acquiring the staff, materials and autonomy of operation if pulled from Cooperative Extension. It drastically needs autonomy that was given the Morikami when administered under Parks and Rec.

..but, would Mounts be required follow U of F guidelines etc?? Is Morikami??

Maybe they need to fire everyone at the Extension and start from scratch?? Place a mole on the inside to report to U of F.

The mentality needs to change.

Tropicalfreak

After seeing this post, I called my friend who is on my board, who is also in charge of the whole master gardeners program here in Florida, and he told me that there are many counties who have thought about doing this same thing, but Palm Beach county is pushing this first. Apparently, MOL, 60% of the money comes from U of F, and 40% comes from each local county. People are looking for budget cuts and if they can't cut enough, then this is what they propose. He was telling me that he doesn't think this will pass because the local county IS getting this extra 60% from another area, which in the long run, affects the county because the trickle down revenues would be going somewhere else. Anyway, it is still a very good idea to get as many local people as possible to come to that meeting. More than just the PBC people will be looking at this, because it is possible that you may live in a county that is at least thinking about the same thing but haven't made that public. Their perception is that people don't need extension as much as people used to and it may not be worth doing. People who have been impacted need to come out and show them there are many people who use and need extension so that they don't just look at figures on a page to make their decisions.

Cycad, I assume you mean Tom Wickman (is it)?

I still don't believe the breakdown, I have a feeling that 60% is for non-tenured benefits or simply for staff salaries. The annual budgetary things fall heavily on the county. I can also share that Mounts gets nothing from UF monetary-wise, only (in the very recent past) smug commentary and "I know better" attitudes.

Tropical, no, Mounts is not "required" to follow UF guidelines (recommendations) and this is something that those within the system did not understand. Although Cooperatve Extension provides much useful information on horticultural practice, it is geared for context of a homeowner (who is simultaneously in control of all decisions, budget, access on his own property/garden). Many of the black-or-white simplified recommendations put forth (in env. horticulture) are half-truths. They are keenly relevant to a simplied individual garden, but they are not as relevant to overal organizational issues at a botanical garden or multi-faceted plant collection.

For example, (and Cycad you can attest), for years Asian cycad scale was not addressed by the display horticulturist. Massive old specimens of both king and queen sagos were snow white. After such neglect, the Master Gardener Coordinator bullied the leader of commercial horticulture, seeing that UF-IFAS was NOT recommending using imidacloprid to help gain control over the scale, and became angry that 2-3 different approaches were used to save the cycads (and within 3 months of these treatments, all cycads were "clean(er)" of the scale, and new fronds were flushing garden-wide). These approaches were not what the most recent (3 year old) IFAS publication had listed. Thus, the Master Gardener "coordinator" and her boss demanded that only a stream of water from a hose were to be used to dislodge (live) scale from the cycads in the future. Duh---how big a waste of time and water is this? I need not go on.

Morikami is COUNTY, nothing to do with IFAS/UF. In fact, much of what the Morikami Garden is about is anti-FYN and what UF teaches, since many plants are coppiced or poodled (Neither of which is really adequately addressed by EDIS publications to the average consumer to obtain). Moreover, there are thousands of plants that are suitable and preferred to grow in south FLorida that UF fails to address in any presentations, publications. Thus, the perception and information that is then given to MGs and others can be that of "if UF does not (explicitly) recommend it, it should not be used. I have also seen the FLEPPC Invasive lists inappropriately used as a threat or scare tactic to smugly tell people it must not be planted for any reason (those on the Cat II still have viable applications in a garden), but it is dumbes down to the average citizen so everything is black and white.

This is one of the core problems that (hopefully) recently ended at Mounts with the resignation of the second of two bad-attitude out-of-state trained "horticulturists". With little experience growing anything in FL, these women would look at IFAS publications and take everything literally under all circumstances (yet not practice it in their own work), but cannot be told what they did in error was against their own teachings.

INterestingly, at Florida Botanical Gardens, also a UF-cooperative extension facility in Pinellas COunty, the attitude allowed there is that all IFAS recommendations "are a foundation and jumping off point" to allow professional horticulturists at the garden to investigate many options to best solve problems based on good culture, budget, timing, and prevention. A stark contrast in use of IFAS information.

THe reality is that Palm Beach's Cooperative Ext, in particular horticulture (those vocal nasty people that would actually contradict Gene Joyner), has had a recent legacy of bullying, arrogance and overall meanness to both the general public and horticultural professionals. This is one reason that I can attest many in the region have little regard for Coop. Ext, other than the respect for Gene Joyner. Whether this is true of the other sectors, I cannot attest, but if horticulture was allowed to go out of control, I would worry the carte blanche attitude was permitted in other sectors, too.

My point remains--I am worried that the stupidity and bullying attitude that was duly noted by many gardening enthusiasts, pleasant Master Gardeners and a vast number of horticultural and nursery professionals, that Cooperative Ext may have much to overcome thanks to 3 individuals in horticulture at Mounts. Unfortunately, one remains.

Longwood, first of all, yes.
Ok, now you have hit a subject that I could vent for a while on. I also see the attitude you are talking about with some people at extension, but not all people. When it comes to some things that really count, I have seen some extension people that don't seem to know much. They seem to follow whatever they are sent down and they act like their hands are tied when the truth comes out that may not adhere to what they are allowed to tell people. So lets look at the Asian scale situation as an example. Most of the information says that the scale was brought in around 1995 or so. I had already been experimenting on how to get rid of it by just after that time frame.(the most likely shipment was in 1992) We were told that it would never live in central Florida north because at 35 degrees they were seeing decreased numbers. I had a test plant that had the scales survive on, during a freeze of 23F. That was when I told the world that the scales would go into the root system and were not dying. I think it took them another 5 years to figure that one. By 1998 I had already figured how to kill the scale and that Imidicloprid would make a good, more long term way to get rid of scale instead of the every other week spraying of material. One saturday morning early, I was called to rush down to downtown Lakeland to be on news 9 (local cable news station)and tell people about the scale. Our extension agent was there, and a local landscape person. We were all interviewed. I told how to take care of the scale using horticultural oil on existing scales and imidicloprid as a drench. When the item came on TV, almost everything I said was cut out. I found out that the agent told the news people to delete what I said because I told people to use something that didn't have "cycad" on the label.(like anyone cares enough about cycads to test a product enough on cycads to add it to the label) The story ended up talking about what the agent would allow to be said, so the bottom line of the story was that if you use horticultural oil, you will take care of the problem. (even though you would forever have the scales coming up on the plant from the root system) I found out a while later that one extension person in Miami told their world that Imidicloprid did not work at all because of her experiments. I found out by a friend who works at Bayer that when he talked to her she had no idea that Imidicloprid concentrates in the new leaves and that in the experiments the Imidicloprid was used on existing leaves. (which obviously didn't work)I had a bit of an argument with an extension agent in Martin county because what this person came up with was treated like gospel and I couldn't get this person to even listen to me.They treated me like I was crazy, where I was just trying to help. At least I now have a cure for the scale that is more long term than Imidicloprid and works in a short period of time, and is free. Another situation I saw is that papers made by one professor who's material was treated like gospel, I found out by his assistant that he falsified some of his figures to make it look like his ideas worked well, where they really didn't. Anyway, I have seen the head in the sand outlook by many of the extension people. Some, see the truth, but will even say that they can't say anything that isn't handed down by the people at U of F. Then there are some good people who see the world like it truly is and try to get the word out. In 4 counties, I have been asked to make a presentation to either the master gardener's group, or to talk at a symposium set up with over 100 people presnt at a time, and they let me say whatever I had to say. A couple of those people have even done some experimenting on their own and proved to themselves that what I told them actually works, so you really can't lump all extension people as not good, which I know you have not said that, but it IS the people who have their heads in the sand that makes it look bad for all of them.

Longwood and Cycadjungle...

Can I have your emails to contact you?? I have a few questions. I don;t want to high-jack Kat's post.

Thanks,
Tropcialfreak

Okay, now I'm confused. Does all this mean that the Mounts would be better off (and the county, too) if the PBC Ext. Service were axed? Or is this an attempt to get the people involved to wake up and change their attitudes? There are many good programs provided but I am not "in the know" and am just a PBCounty gardener who wants to see the county continue to be the lush garden spot it seems to be. Is there life after the Extension service?

Thanks for reassuring me about Gene Joyner. He is an awesome person with such a generous heart.

Julie in WPB

I know a (little ) of which longwood speaks. I have for years wanted to take the Master gardeners class and volunteer with children . It wasn`t till the new master gardener coordinator was hired that I finally did it. She is a sweetheart !

A little shaking - and thinning out may not be a bad thing either.

Mantra time...change isn`t always bad change is`t always bad change isn`t always bad.......

I think nearly every agency is starting to freak. With the tax cuts, there isn't enough money to fund the budgets. So the easiest thing is to cut whole programs instead of belt tightening at every agency which would work.
Nancy

Is there an update as to the tone and outcome of that hearing/meeting?

I had heard that Coop. Ext had already been either axed or reduced in Broward, so the precedent was already there leading into this challenge for Palm Beach County.

Julie, I"m not sure that Mounts would automatically be better off. It is worrisome whether or not Mounts would be given the needs/acknowledgement by Parks& Rec as being something different than a park (that just needs mowing and dyed red mulch).

The county probably wouldn't be better off on the whole, but considering the complacency and "fat cat" attitudes by people in governmental jobs/positions, seeing Coop Ext re-evaluate how it spends its money and how many employees are needed (why do you need 3 desktop publishing and print "design" staff?). And, a director who's pulling in over $120,000?

Cycad, I remember reading of your experiments and successes with imidacloprid back in 2004. I had used it with great success.

I had a similar "discussion" with the 2 individuals at Mounts, rather Coop. Ext. When I demanded to find a copy of the UF research that stated that imidaclprid didn't work, there was no document. Furthermore, all subsequent literature that IFAS and other agents statewide would right would simply read as "previous research found that imidacloprid was ineffective" (NO RESEARCH AUTHOR NAME OR EXPERIMENT's PUBLISH DATE).

My argument was based that in any scientific paper there is always a methodology and results section. If the general public cannot obtain the data and published paper from a state insitution, I think the whole "scientific process" that was used is faulted. When you publish scientifically, anyone else who follows your same experimental model as you share in the methodology should yield the same results and same conclusions. Thus, there is validity in your conclusion.

IFAS thinks we're all idiots/droids, and thus never does any legitimate parenthetical referencing so you can find out the who/what/how/when aspects of the very research our taxes fund and we like to know about and learn from!

IFAS also perpetuates the myth that Orange Geiger is a Florida native, too.

Good news. they will leave the Mounts alone for now !

What does that mean? Did Extension all squeak by with no trimming or audits/ultimatums?

How was the actual meeting, dialog and commissioner comments and were there people there from that group (some tax accountibility firm or consultant?) voicing anything?

thx

Longwood,
Unfortunately I didn`t get out of work till after six, I decided not to go. I turned on channel 20 around 6:40 and they had already addressed it. Christine emailed us to announce the good news and to thank us. I will find out more and get back with you.

ps. Do you think the seagrape is native too ? LOL !

Is there an update as to the tone and outcome of that hearing/meeting?
I have been reading this post with great interest. As a Master Gardener in Central Florida that loves her Extension, I would like to find out what happened at the Commissioner's meeting. Thanks, Anise

I will talk to Christine sometime this week.

Thanks jupiterplants.
Anise

Hi,
Christine is out of town....I will call her Monday or Tuesday

D`Ann

Hi,
I just got off the phone with Christine, she said the commissioners received allot of phone call and comment cards that week. There was a good turn out at the meetings and they address it in the first 15 minuets of the meeting. No changes this year.

Protesting can work :)

Thanks Jupitorplants for the info. This is a good thing!
Anise