How long were the plants in your garden before you noticed they were dying?

Not being an expert on rot, I can only say that the trick seems to be to catch it early to hav any chance of saving a plant. I have also been told that anything you can do to relieve the stress of shipping/transplanting seems to help. For me, I am opting to grow all new plants on in pots until the weather breaks and I can transplant in favorable conditions. I lost a VERY expensive plant this year and have almost convinced myself that I did everything right AND that the grower did nothing wrong. I do know that the rot was caused by the little white worms and was not just a fungal or bacterial infection.
That being said, be very careful about casting aspertions on growers without hard and fast evidence. I think that is the easiest thing to do (human nature) but you may have inadvertantly created the right situation culturally through the stress of shipping and transplanting. I can only imagine what growers/sellers must go through with regard to plant loss - people calling to say their palnts are dead weeks or months after shipping and asking for free replacements....I'm sure this is not true in your case but I have seen more than several car/trucks pull in to nurseries with toasted shrubs/trees/plants in the back in pots or bareroot, asking for refunds because their plants died - and I'm talking lots of plants....
I don't think I would honor anything beyond shipping, personally - maybe 2 weeks after planting - just too many variables...
This year will be a particularly bad one because of the drought - I can't tell you how many people in my own neighborhood - sensible people with more than a little amateur gardening experience - have sat idly by this year while major chunks of their landscaping just dried up and died.
This rot thing is really a mystery to me - some would suggest that if you had caught it early and treated it, you could have saved a few. Some folks I have talked to have never been able to save plants once they start to decline.....I am beginning to think it is a cultural/stress issue in alot of cases.....and sometimes those dastardly worms start eating your plants....
All we can do is to offer the very best care we can and be good observers - we will all still lose plants, unforunately. I'm anxious to hear the opinions of others on this topic as I am still stinging from my loss earlier this summer (BTW - this is my first loss ever to rot)...and I'm sorry to hear about yours....

Well, zjones, while in effect it may sound to you like I may be casting aspersions, in actuality I am simply stating facts. I lost 9 out of 16 plants that I purchased from Brown's Ferry.

But there's more. In addition, they sent me 5 lovely bonus plants. Four of the five have died. Losing thirteen out of twenty-one plants is a bit much, in my opinion. I contacted them in the hope that they would replace the dead plants. Instead, they offered to refund my money, but only if I were to dig up all the plants, living or dead, and ship them back. I chose not to do that. I have no intentions of sending back the plants that are alive and growing.

What little white worms are you talking about? What are they called?

I can understand that insects can destroy plants. What I do not comprehend is how they could have been so selective among 500+ daylilies to just munch up the ones that came from this nursery?

What does one do about these little white worms?

I have tried to understand how this could happen, and what would cause the deaths of so many from the same source. What I think might be the answer is that these plants, arriving late in the afternoon here after having been in in a truck for several hours may have been overheated during transit. Not enough to be visible when they arrived, but perhaps enough to cause serious damage. Maybe so, maybe not. To me, that is the most logical answer, but I just don't know.

These plants were treated like all the rest of them. They were soaked in cold water, planted the next day in new nursery pots and cared for the same as all the rest of our new plants. They were all transplanted to our new field bed and mulched at the same time. When the weather suddenly became extremely hot, we erected a shade cover over them as fast as we could.

Now, here maybe is a clue. When I received the plants, I was very disappointed in the size of Victorian Lace. It didn't seem to me much bigger than a green onion. I contacted the nursery by e-mail, and the owner most graciously replaced it with a fine DF, plus he sent me another nice bonus plant.

Now, these last two plants that he sent me overnight are alive and well. So, to me, that points to the overheating theory.

I will never buy plants that have to be shipped in July or August again. I ordered these plants at the end of June, when our weather was still relatively mild, but they weren't shipped for approximately three weeks, as they were going on vacation. That put them arriving here in the worst part of our summer.

I tried saving one of these dying plants, as suggested here at GW. I removed all the rotting roots. There was only one intact root left. It fell off while dusting it with sulfur. Part of the crown was mushy, so I cut that out. I planted it in a pot and placed it on a shady porch. It did not revive.

We live out in the country, with at least an hour of travel time to get to this area from the districution centers. It seems to us that the delivery truck always leaves us to the very last on his route, usually arriving around 4-5 P.M. If the box of plants was placed near the top of the metal truck bed, I would think they certainly could have been injured, especially those closer to the heat source. If that be the case, then the question is "should I be the one to sustain this loss?"

Crown rot is not infectious. Brown's Ferry is not responsible for your losses. Some plants have a better immune system than other so some plants are susceptible to rot while other never get rot. It isn't that they are prone to rot so much as they are prone to everything. It is just the same in that some plants are rust magnets while others never get rust. The mechanism to prevent certain diseases are healthier in some plants, it is in the genetics. Also the beneficial bacteria and fungi are more plentiful in some gardens. For example: If you over fertilize, especially with inorganic high nitrogen fertilizer you will get more of all diseases short and simple, it has been proven over and over but too many still fall into the over fertilizing routine. I have had a plant die of crown rot and planted another daylily right in the same spot doing nothing with the soil and then next plant in the same hole thrived.

During prolonged very hot and humid conditions rot can run as high as 25% of the plants where other areas with the very same plants will never get rot because of a less stressful climate.

Often it occurs with plants that have been recently dug and shipped or replanted so it is easy to blame the shipper.

Moisture is the key. In hot (above 95 degrees) and very humid conditions plants need to be kept dry, even if it means allowing the tops to die back the plants will live.

Twice I have had a clump that I dug die out entirely both those I shipped and those I kept so I assume that particular cultivar is prone to crown rot.

The first clue is you will see the entire top turn yellow and fall over. Once you notice that it is almost always to late to save the plant. When you examine the crown it is gray, mussy, and smells terrible - that is the rot. If you catch rot early enough and keep the crown dry enough you can almost always save the plant but few catch the rot in time and even fewer are willing to dry the plant out bone dry. I have read of many cures but they all involve getting the mushy part out that is loaded with bacteria, cleaning the wound, and then keeping the wounded area dry.

If you saw a corpse lying in the woods decomposing you would not say the animal died of rot. It is the same with daylilies, something else is happening and the rot is natures way of cleaning up.

I have observed that MILDRED MITCHELL & TEXAS WHOPPER STOPPER are rotters and yet I have had TEXAS WHOPPER STOPPER since it was introduced in 1998. I've learned to keep it on the dry side when it is dug. Fortunately we don't have heat or humidity here in San Diego so rot is almost never a problem but in areas such as Houston it can be a huge problem with losses of well established plants.

With rot the best thing to do is dig the plant and clean out the crown area as best you can then dry it with something like agricultural sulphur which will absorb the moisture and kill bacteria without killing the plant. They keep it dry till it starts growing again so you don't reintroduce rot. Planting the crown above the soil level will help. Plants planted to deep are more prone to rot. It may be that there was air under the plants crown. If too many roots are left on the plant the old roots can hold the plant up while the dirt under the crown settles. Then the plant settles too deep and the plant is more prone to rot. I always trim to roots down to 4"-5" inches and plant with the crown at soil level. I like to keep new plants in pots (I use excellent potting soil that I buy by the pickup truck load) until the pot is filled with roots and then set it out in the soil in its permanent location.

I do know that the rot was caused by the little white worms and was not just a fungal or bacterial infection.

The plant was already manifesting some weakness when the insect, or whatever, laid her eggs in the suseptible area. The maggots may have exacerbated the weakness but I doubt they caused it.

Jackarias, thank you again for your good information, as always. You described exactly what happened. The tops turned yellow and died very quickly.

We had a really bad spell of hot and extremely humid weather here in early August. It is over now, thank goodness. Our heat index was 108-109. Right after that, these daylilies began to die, one by one.

When we put in the new bed, we added composted manure (purchased at Lowe's), lots of peat moss, and cottonseed meal. We spread alfalfa pellets on top of the ground before adding pine bark mulch. We haven't ever used Milorganite, or any chemical fertilizer, for that matter. This is "new ground" that was forest a few years ago. Did we add something that would have contributed to crown rot? What about the composted manure? What about one dose of alfalfa tea? Would that harm plants? Most of the daylilies planted there in July-August are a beautiful green, and are producing new fans.

We just recently planted over a hundred more daylilies in the same area. As a precaution, we dusted all the roots with sulfur before they were put in the ground. I checked on them yesterday, and it looks like they are all doing well and beginning to grow. Hopefully, our hot and humid weather is all behind us now.

It's funny, the nameless daylilies I bought at a fund-raiser a few years ago and stuck in the ground out in front of our board fence along the road are doing great. Planted in terrible soil, they got no weeding, no fertilizer, no watering, nothing except a dust bath whenever a car passed by. This is the first year I have actually paid any attention to them because they were blooming like crazy with all the rain we were getting. A couple of small ones have disappeared over time, so I just figured maybe someone had come along and wanted them more than I did. Sheer neglect, and they thrived! Go figure!

Jackarius states "The mechanism to prevent certain diseases are healthier in some plants, it is in the genetics." That's important. Read it again and write it down.

Unfortunately, some daylilies that have very pretty faces and are quite popular are prone to disease - especially in the deep south. Furthermore, based on my experience, problematic daylilies pass these undesirable traits on to their offspring (including susceptability to rust and crown rot). If you live in zone 7 or higher, I highly recommend that you try to find out which daylilies are problematic before you spend a lot of money on plants that may not do well in your zone. You can start by studying the results of the rust survey. Then go to Tinkers and look up the children of dayliles that scored both well and poorly. Buy accordingly. I'll post a link. Hope this helps. Good luck,
Kathy

Here is a link that might be useful: Rust Survey

Is the rust survey still in progress? The results posted on the link seem to be based on way too few reports to be reliable, don't you think? The cultivar with the most reports was CHANCE ENCOUNTER with 18, while STRAWBERRY CANDY, which surely has a wider distribution, had only 5.

When we put in the new bed, we added composted manure (purchased at Lowe's), lots of peat moss, and cottonseed meal. We spread alfalfa pellets on top of the ground before adding pine bark mulch.

It is difficult to buy good bagged soil ammendments. You either don't need them or you use the wrong thing or they are not consistent and every once in awhile you "shoot yourself in the foot" using them. You either have to order compost from a place that will do it right, I've never found one, or do it yourself. The heat combined with too wet was the problem. The alfalfa pellets could have also been a factor. They will heat up as they break down and if concentrated they will cause problems. I know people love them and swear by them but it is really a waste of money. I recommend good compost made aerobically, never anaerobic compost. That is the problem with alfalfa tea, it is almost always made anaerobically so it will release good nutrients but the anaerobic conditions breed harmful microbiology. If it is kept aerobic then it will only breed beneficials but it is too hard. Just use good compost, whatever you can get your hands on. The mulch is a great idea too, the coarser the better because it will allow air to go through it and will not hold too much moisture against the foliage. Also coarse mulch reduces thrips by as much as 50%.

We haven't ever used Milorganite.

Milorganite is human manure so it is not chemical, heavy metals are removed and it is baked to kill everything including the beneficials.

Did we add something that would have contributed to crown rot?

Water. Possibly the alfalfa but probably not.

What about the composted manure?

Excellent!

What about one dose of alfalfa tea?

I never recommend any tea made anaerobically.

As a precaution, we dusted all the roots with sulfur before they were put in the ground.

That will not help crown rot and will kill the beneficial bacteria in the root area so probably not a good idea.

It's funny, the nameless daylilies I bought at a fund-raiser a few years ago and stuck in the ground out in front of our board fence along the road are doing great. Planted in terrible soil, they got no weeding, no fertilizer, no watering, nothing

So you have answered your own question. No WATER!! No fertilizer. Daylilies are not heavy feeders. I put mine in 100% compost and then add milorganite about 3 times a year. I use a 6.2.0 formula so it is organic and a very slow and low form of nitrogen.

In nature it is the bacteria that plants use (some fungi) for nitrogen. Bacteria have a ration of calcium to nitrogen of 5:1. As the beneficial fungi protozoa, and or beneficial nemetodes eat the bacteria they release the excess nitrogen to the plants. The vertical worm are a good sign there is healthy soil as they grind the soil to eat the bacteria and fungi. If earthworms are plentiful then it is a sign the soil is healthy. I'm not talking about the horizontal red worms that live under the duff and are also beneficial, but the big ones that make tunnels up and down in the soil.

Bacteria glues itself to the soil particles which helps build soil structure and the glue is a critical factor in maintaining the pH. It is the type of bacteria and fungi and the amount that is ultimately determining the pH. If you have lots of vertical worms you can assume they have plenty of food so you can also assume the pH is good.

najoba,
You're close enough that our growing conditions are probably similar.
1. I don't plant anything after May 1 in open beds in full sun until around October. The plants will not have enough time to get established and grow enough foliage to shade the root zone. If you get new plants during this period, pot them up and give them full sun only when they begin growing vigorously.
2. Each year you will have to get through the 'rot period'. It's that period in summer/autumn (July through September) when it is blazing hot outside and occasionally we get a tropical storm that dumps a foot or two of water on us to saturate everything and cook the plants. We lose plants every year down here to rot during this period. Even the professionals with large nurseries and AHS Display Gardens have losses. I hate to say it, but this year was a good year. Your losses would probably have been much worse last year.
3. Of course - only the newer plants rot. Very often when we're discussing daylilies at the local Daylily Club, someone will make the comment; "it's a rotter!". In time these plants disappear from commerce. They rot away! They simply can't tolerate less than ideal growing conditions. They don't pass the test of time. So if you want the newest features in daylilies, you have to be willing to be a tester to some extent! Sometimes a jewel but sometimes a rotter!
4. I have been through that first time when a whole bed is rotting on you and understand the gut wrenching feeling. I honestly don't feel that Brown's Ferry did anything wrong. It was simply the conditions that those plants went through as a group. Those that were more susceptible to rot, did!
5. I have had some success in evading rot. This year I have only lost one clump of an old daylily I have had for years. Go figure! I lost most of one cross of a seedling that has a tendency to rot. I have several cultivars partially rot back, losing several fans but not rotting completely. This is normal for this area. I try not to use heavy amounts of compost or other organic material that holds too much water. What organic material I use is coarse and I add lots of grit to keep my beds aerated. I believe in regular water during the rot period but no soaking. The object is to get your plants to put down deep roots that can cool the plant during this period. Try to watch you pH, make sure it is between 6.5 and 7.0. I use lots of Milorganite. I add a pound of its nitrogen for every 4 to 5 pounds of organic material I add to my beds. It works very well.
6. Fresh organic material generates lots of heat as it breaks down. I don't plant in any fresh bed after May 1, until October. Especially don't use fresh mulch after May and not too deep.
Good luck,
Ed

Wow, Ed, thanks for all the info. Yes, we do live close, as the crow flies, so your advice is taken very seriously and much appreciated.

I do have a few questions for you.

I do think your suggestion about the grit is a good one, considering our soil here. Our local feed store has ground oyster shell...is that the same thing?

I guess we need to get started on tilling the ground for any new beds soon so they will be ready by spring. I will definitely plan for my daylily purchases in the spring of next year.

You don't know it, but you just saved me a trip to Lowe's this afternoon. I was getting ready to go buy more mulch, as our gardener stirred it all up and mixed it in with the topsoil when I wasn't looking!

Do you recommend a soaker hose or above ground sprayers? We had installed soaker hoses in the field bed, covered with mulch, but now I am not so sure if this was the best method of watering our plants. It is hard to tell if the plants have gotten enough water, or too much. Soaker hoses seem to work really good in our raised bed, but I'm not so sure if it's the right way to water a field bed. We are on a hill, so drainage is not a problem.

Ironically, the one daylily that I have lately read so much about as being a rotter was blooming happily here in the garden today. I bought 3 DFs of it this summer before I found out anything bad about it, and it's doing great.

I am planning on attending the HHS meeting next week. Will you be there? I am looking forward to meeting local daylily enthusiasts.

Nancy

Hi Nancy,

The oyster shell would cause your pH to increase and would not be a good choice. They probably have chicken or turkey grit that would be good. It's small, rough pebbles and best if you have a variety of sizes. If you have a soil yard close, look for sharp sand. Some agricultural supply places carry perlite in large bags. That would also be good. If you do visit a soil yard, ask them if they have rose soil. It consists of sharp sand, grit and a blend of aged pine bark. It works well for daylilies down in this area but is expensive. But it will give you a good example of good soil for this area. At least for those of us with natural clay.

Mulch from Lowe's is probably fairly old and not going to be real hot, so it would probably be okay. The bulk mulch you get in soil yards would not be good to use right now. Much too fresh and hot.

Most of my gardens have overhead watering systems and that was the preferred way until rust made its appearance back around 2000. With rust, using soaker hoses or area flooding is the recommended way to water now. It eliminates wet foliage for extended periods. I always try to water early in the morning, especially when it is in the hotter part of the year.

You probably should knock on wood when you talk about that particular daylily. I have had SOMETHING WONDERFUL for several years and it has been happy here, even though it has the rotter reputation. It is kind of a joke in our Club. I am often asked how it is and I say, "it hasn't rotted yet." They reply, "it will!"

No, I belong to the Lone Star Daylily Society in Alvin. btw, we have Tim Bell coming in this Saturday morning around 9:30 to talk about his Gardens and then have an auction of some of his plants. You'd be most welcome to come. The people at HHS are very nice, so I'm sure you'll have a good time there as well.

Ed

Ed....do you know anywhere in Houston I can get grit? When I lived there, I used to know a great feed store out off I-10, but I'm so out of touch with what's what there now, I wouldn't know where to find one any more.

I almost bought the oyster shell here at our local feed store, but something told me it wasn't what you all meant by "grit."

I'm glad to know that our soaker hoses are O.K.

I just got SOMETHING WONDERFUL last week. I will keep a close watch on it.

Nancy

Nancy,
Are you north, east, west or south of Houston. I'll try to get you a source.

Did you ask at your local feed store if they could supply pebble grit, instead of the crushed oyster shell?
Ed

We live to the northeast of Houston, Ed, close to Lake Livingston. We usually go in to Houston shopping, mostly by Hwy 59 or 45.

I just asked at both local feed stores for chicken grit. I didn't know how to describe it. They showed it to me, and it was ground up oyster shell. I didn't think that is was what you all meant by grit so I didn't buy it.

I'm glad you told me about the "hot" mulch. I didn't realize there was any difference.

Houston!! I'm glad to hear that. The AHS will hold their national convention in Houston on May 16th and 17th, 2008. I've already made reservations at the host hotel.

I'm looking forward to meeting the Payne's, Denise C. and planing a trip to Jack Carpenters. Denise lives in northern Houston maybe you know her.

I go by Jackarias here, a name we teased my grandfather with and since it was a made up name it is always available on sites such as this.

Everyone that has been to Tim Bell's says he has the most beautiful daylily garden of them all. Tim is speaking near Sacramento on the 6th of October so a friend and I are going to Bill Maryott's garden on Friday and then to Vacaville on Saturday to hear Tim speak.

In 2009 the AHS will be in Orlando for the National and then 2010 it will be in GA and Tim's garden will be one of the tour gardens.

I don't want to capture this rot topic but maybe someone near Houston would be kind enough to email me and suggest gardens and museums to see - I have part of Wed. and all of Sun., Mon. & Tues after the convention.

I'll be near your beautiful city next month, Jackarias, in North County. How far is Maryott's from San Diego, approximately? I'd love to visit his place while I'm there. I am so impressed with the beautiful daylilies that I bought from them. They are all growing, very green, and even multiplying and blooming already, even though they were just transplanted in July. Christie's and Maryott's plants survived this horrific heat/humidity wave we had in August without any adverse effects. I can't say enough good things about them.

There are several daylily farms just outside Houston, that I know of. One is near Pearland, south of Houston and another in Spring (the Gages) north of Houston. I haven't been to either one yet. I'd like to visit Jack Carpenter's place too. He isn't all that far from me.

Tim Bell's garden is really extraordinary, from what I can see on the internet. That must have taken years to develop.

I don't know Denise. I just got interested in daylilies this year and haven't met anyone yet.

Najoba;

I am not Jackarias but the distance between San Diego and Maryott's (as the crow flys) is aprox. the same as between Houston and Oklahoma City. I live in the Central Valley of Calif. and it is a 7 hr drive to San Diego for me. I have a daughter who lives in Poway. Maryott's is almost straight West of me about 90 miles.

Ted

jackarias - Vacaville! I grew up there... geesh, NOW they have cool stuff there... after I move to TEXAS! Anyhow... If you want some dinner recs, let me know (or if you just want the best dipped ice cream cone...). I also used to work in Davis, Ca - which is on 80 between Sac and Vacaville - great restaurants there. Or, I have a friend who lives in Sac and I can get great recs from her too... Can you tell I like food as much as DLs???? :o)

random_harvest,,,I took the rust survey last summer and the results were posted in about 24 hours. After reading your question I decided to email the webmaster and make sure that it is still current. This is the response I got from Rebecca -
"It's an ongoing project that I intend to keep available for people to post to at any time. Last time I checked the new results were tabulated at midnight. If you don't think this is happening like it should, let me know and I'll look into it."

I agree that the list of cultivars is short. But it is a place to start. And over the years, I hope that more information will be provided. I have found the results of the survey to be reliable, in my garden. I think the difference in the number of reports between CHANCE ENCOUNTER and STRAWBERRY CANDY that you noticed is due to extremes. If a cultivar (like CHANCE ENCOUNTER) is extremely rusty, people remember it and report it to the survey. At the other extreme, if a cultivar rarely rusts (like BETTY WARREN WOODS) they remember and report that as well. But then you have everything in between (like STRAWBERRY CANDY) which puts many people in a "I'm going to wait and watch it for another year" mode.

I noticed that Bill Maryott is posting the results of the rust survey on his website. I emailed him and thanked him. I think this is a step in the right direction. I also noticed that Blueridge had a daylily for sale, INSIDER TRADING, that was described as rust resistant. I bought the daylily and thanked them for the rust info. I also asked if he new of any others that might be rust resistant. Bob replied, that MR LUCKY, was the only other one he knew about.

A daylily that is very susceptible to rust is a bad daylily for a southern buyer...in the same way that a tender daylily is a bad daylily for a northern buyer. Many growers/hybridizers include information about cold hardiness on their websites. I'd like to see more rust information included as well.

Kathy

Well, I got my Rand-McNally map book out and found Sacramento and Vacaville. Ooooh too far, could never get my kids to take me up there, not even my L.A. kids.

I checked the chicken grit out at a local farmer's co-op. It looks like any very small gravel I might find on a roadside. It also looks just like a natural brown aquarium gravel. In the city, would aquarium gravel be the same?

Chicken grit, called Starter Grit, is white, small, irregularly shaped, sharp to the touch, crushed granite pieces. The product is to feed newly hatched chicks until they are 6-8 weeks old.

If it is small and round and brown-ish in color, that is not the same. The feed store gave it to me once and since they always load the 50# bags for me, I didn't know until I got home and opened a bag that it was the wrong chicken feed.

Turkey Grit, called Grower Grit on the bag, is about double the size of the chicken grit and it is to feed chickens from 8 weeks and up and also, duh, turkeys. This size would probably be best to add to your gardens but either will work. The ability to aerate the soil would be best with the slightly bigger size.

I said this stuff is sharp but not so sharp it will cut you or hurt your hands. You can dig your hands through the stuff and it doesn't bother you at all.

Very small aquarium gravel will also work but would be expensive compared to the granite grit.

Brooke

Thanks Brooke,
For explaining the different grits. Very helpful. The grits are fed to poultry, but are not really feed. It is retained in the craw of the poultry and helps strip off the hard covering of seeds the poultry eats, according to my understanding anyway.
It is intended to be a cheap additive to help aerate your soil. I prefer it to perlite, but I would not pay more for it. I had never heard of using ground-up oyster shells for grit. But we do have an abundance of spent shells down here in the gulf area and they would be a good source of calcium. Something poultry needs. But something I wouldn't add to my soil without knowing I needed it.
This brings up the recommendation of a soil test again. Can't recommend one enough. Gardening without a soil test is like taking a road trip without a map!

Nancy,
There are two soil yards in Conroe. One has rose soil and crushed granite available. Both would be good to visit to see what they have available as amendments. A blend of sharp sand and the two sizes of grit would be ideal to amend heavy soil, in my opinion. There's also a Scott's plant in Huntsville. I don't know if they sell direct to the public, but they would have a large variety of amendments.
Ed

If any of the members of this forum are coming to the the 2009 National in Region 12, I hope you will search me out. I will be one of the worker bees helping to pull off the National. Don't know yet what my part to do will be but be sure that I will be working to help my region shine for you.

I went to our other local feed store today and engaged in a serious discussion about grit! All they had was oyster shell. She did find a pigeon grit that she could special order at $26. per 50 lb bag, so I guess I will have to look elsewhere. There is a huge sand and gravel business in Livingston -- it looks like they sell by railroad car quantities, though. They have mountainous stacks of all sorts of stuff right by the railroad. I will have to ask around and see what they have and whether or not they sell small quantities to the general public.

Ed, I don't know where there are any soil places in Conroe...can you tell me where they are located? I go to Conroe often. I was just there yesterday. I can check on Scott's as Huntsville isn't that far from me either.

Thanks all, for all the gritty information! :-) I will keep trying to find a source. I need to have the field bed extended before winter sets in, as all those seedlings we planted a couple of weeks ago are beginning to take off and grow. I think by spring they will deserve a place they can call their own. I'd like to find the grit before we do any more tilling.

I have poured a 10% clorox solution in some of the holes left by the dead plants. Should I continue to do this? I read that somewhere, and I really need to utilize the space where the plants were located for replacements. Or should I wait for a specified period of time before I plant anything there again?

One way to help understand soil additive is to compare it to food. There is the food in the pantry which is valuable food but until something is done to it you cannot eat it. Most soil additives fall in that class including oyster shell and granite.

Then there is the food on the table. It is prepared and ready to eat but if you don't like a particular food or you are not hungry you may not eat it. My daughter-in-law will not eat chocolate. You can set it out be she will always tell you no. Most soil tests test what is on the table, the nutrients that are water soluble and easily measured with chemicals. Just because the nitrogen is there does not mean the plants can use it or will consume it. It may be ammonium nitrate and that particular plant needs a nitrite form of nitrogen. So a soil test can tell you that you have plenty of nitrogen when you don't have usable nitrogen or the test will show insufficient nitrogen when your soil is loaded with nitrogen rich bacteria. That is the problem with soil tests. They tell you what is on the table but they don't tell you what is in the pantry or what should be on the table i.e. what the plants can eat.

Finally you are what you eat. A leaf assay test will tell you what is in the leaf, what the plant is actually eating and/or what the plant should be getting but that it does not have enough of.

Calcium, rock phosphate, granite will not show up in most soil tests but if fungi is there the fungi has the enzymes to break down the minerals and transport them via their hyphae to the root zone of the plants. If inorganic fertilizers have killed the bacteria and fungi then there may be everything you need in the pantry but the plants will not get it and the tests will not measure it.

For most people the best way to handle soil is to give the plants a good humus rich friable soil to sink their roots in and then very little if any fertilizer. Thinks like cotton seed meal, rock phosphate, bone meal, and so forth may be excellent but either not available to the plants or not necessary and most tests won't show you anyway so learn to watch the vigor and health of the foliage. A trained eye can tell you as much as most tests.
BTW I will be in Orlando October 25 - 28, next month for the fall board meeting and in 2009 for the National Convention. I usually stay with Dan Hansen while I'm in Orlando
Gary

That was great,Gary.Made me see it all in a new perspective.Thanks.
Betsy

Gary, how long after transplanting newly acquired daylilies should a leaf assay be made?

From Wikipedia-
Most plants are photoautotrophs, which means that they are able to synthesize food directly from inorganic compounds using light energy - for example from the sun, instead of eating other organisms or relying on nutrients derived from them. This is distinct from chemoautotrophs that do not depend on light energy, but use energy from inorganic compounds.

So, if you feel your daylily is not photoautotrophic, plant it in nice rich moist soil, cover it with a five gallon bucket and see if it lives.
Ed

how long after transplanting newly acquired daylilies should a leaf assay be made?

I wouldn't do the test at all as long as the daylilies are doing well. The tests are expensive and unless you have a consultant you trust you really won't know much more after the test than before. You will just have more information but no more understanding. Over the years farmers have learned how to get the most out of certain crops.

After World War II the industries that used nitrates to make bombs found they could survive by using nitrates to make fertilizer. In 1947 the use of inorganic fertilzers really got started. By applying a little bit of fertilizer farmers began to get significant increases in yeild. The problem was that at that same time they began to get significan increases in plant pathogens and plant pests so more chemicals were added to control them. But as we destroy the plants natural defense system we have been forced to assume the role of defender ourselves so farming now uses harmful chemicals such as methylbromide to sterilze soil before planting in the soil to stop those pathogens but at the same time they are killing the bacteria and fungi that previously provided defense to the plants.

Soil scientists are just now begining to understand what is happining. The ability to do DNA testing and the use of high powered microscopes is shedding new light on what is happening in our soils.

There is a lot of resistance though because the companies that exist to supply the fungicides, pesicides, and fertilizers contribute large sums of money to the agrcultural schools to fund research so because of the funding source there is a built in bias.

I think in the next 10 - 15 years we will see much change in how we manage our soils for plant production due to a better understanding of the relationship between plants and the life in the soil.

It may be ammonium nitrate and that particular plant needs a nitrite form of nitrogen.

Nitrite nitrogen is toxic to plants. It is briefly formed during the conversion of ammonium to nitrate by bacteria in the soil. Plants mostly take up nitrogen as either ammonium or nitrate.

General farming doesn't use methyl bromide and it's supposed to have been pretty much phased out by 2005. It is indeed nasty stuff.

It's interesting that terrible famines caused by plant diseases, such as the great Irish potato famine (mid-1800's), occurred prior to WWII and therefore the widespread use of "chemical" fertilizers. Wouldn't that tend to point more to monoculture as a major factor in plant diseases than the use of inorganic fertilizers?