hey guy ..

whats the project.. collecting cultivars.. or covering ground ...

link to WNY COUNTY soil conservation districts .... looks like their 2012 plant sales catalog are due out soon ... perhaps they will have some firs ...

but they may also have a tree guy ... get it.. on staff.. or easy reference.. who might help define your issue locally ....

now.. what do you mean by drought tolerant.. any PROPERLY ESTABLISHED tree.. should be able to handle all drought .. its those babe years when drought can NOT be an issue .... so are you hoping to plant and walk away forever ... or can you baby it for a year or two ...

your soil sounds like high drainage .. and that is prime with conifers.. and yours sounds perfect.. based on words alone ...

more info please..

ken

Here is a link that might be useful: link

In our area which gets some pretty dry summer stretches, A. concolor and cephalonica seem to do very well. The Greek fir looks a little healthier than the White Fir when mature though.
A. balsamea gets a bit threadbare when it gets older as does A. lasiocarpa arizonica. A large (60') A. nordmanniana died at the local arboretum a few years ago....don't know the cause but the Greek Fir beside it was fine

Yes, the core groups will be the hardier species from drier regions such as the Mediterranean, North Africa and western North America.

Also consider A. holophylla, A. chensiensis, and A. recurvata.

Resin

Agree w/Resin about A. recurvata. Mine seems surprisingly drought tolerant for a plant from a monsoonal climate. There's a big one at a nursery outside Rochester so it's hardy up there.
I wonder what killed the Nordmann fir, it should do well in that climate. There are good looking ones in DC even in nondescript suburban yards that aren't receiving any special treatment as you might expect of a tree at a place like the National Arboretum.

Thanks everyone for the input. Ken, I should have stipulated: What firs besides east coast natives and A. concolor would work well in my situation? I have A. concolor var. lowiana planted elsewhere on the property and didn't want another concolor in the front yard.

I actually have some potted A. holophylla and A. chensiensis mulched into my overwintering bed. I'll use those then! I'm hoping to get my hands on some A. recurvata this spring from Don at Treehaven Evergreen Nursery (he supplied the others). This isn't a plug for Don, I'm simply stating where I got my less common fir seedlings.

One more fir I thought of since I posted the original message. What about A. magnifica? From what I read online they seem to have a dry warm summer with a cold snow packed winter. That sounds pretty similar to my climate. . . do you think that species will work for the site I described?

Hi Evan,

If Don isn't selling in 2012 (I think he's done and moving onto his arboretum project) I have an extra recurvata that's in a #5. I'll send it to you. If Don's selling next year, I'd be happy to purchase one more time from him. I'd like to be wrong about this.

Not sure about A.magnifica. What I doubt most is it being tolerant to humidity.

Dax

"If Don isn't selling in 2012 (I think he's done and moving onto his arboretum project)"

Assume you mean Don Howse?
It seems in the past 6 years, nursery closings* have outnumbered nursery openings by 10:1. At this rate, we won't have any in 10 years!

* - of course I mean rare plant/mail order nurseries

There has also been mortality of longtime large wholesale operations.

Red fir is known to not grow well outside of its native region. There are very few even here, one state north of Oregon.

Hey Dax, Thanks for the offer. Much appreciated and I may have to take you up on it. I was just out to see Don (Hilliker) this past weekend to pick out a Christmas tree from his lot. Believe it or not the seedling sales are a side project from his arboretum/Christmas tree growing operation. He and I talked about setting up a time this spring/summer for me to drive down and visit the arboretum. He just put a beautiful summer house/rental house up on the property along with a 1+ acre pond. If he gives permission, I'll take some nice pictures of the plantings he has down there to share. He's had many of the more rare fir and spruce species in the ground for quite a few years now.

Don said he will be selling seedlings this spring but probably not afterward. The stock list is being mailed out this week. He's selling the Christmas tree property in Elma, NY.

I think you're right about the humidity being the limiting factor for A. magnifica. Here's what I found from http://www.na.fs.fed.us/pubs/silvics_manual/volume_1/abies/magnifica.htm
"Climate for the red fir zone can be classified in general as cool and moist to cold and moist. It is relatively mild for high-elevation forests, with summer temperatures only occasionally exceeding 29� C (85� F) and winter temperatures rarely below -29� C (-20� F). One notable climatic feature is a 4- to 5-month summer dry spell. Between April (or May) and October, precipitation from scattered thunder-showers is negligible. Almost all precipitation occurs between October and March, with 80 percent or more as snow. Snowpack can exceed 4 m (13 ft) in the Sierra Nevada, and snow can accumulate to more than 2 m (7 ft) in Oregon and northwestern California (9,39). Total precipitation ranges from 750 to 1500 mm (30 to 60 in)."

The temperature description matches my local climate exactly. The snow pack here from lake effect snow isn't quite as much as described above but is pretty close and consistent from year to year. The summer dry spell is the only difference as we get sporadic summer rains keeping things moist and happy. I have an A. magnifica in the back yard but was wondering if it may do better in the more open drier area out front. I guess I'll keep that one in back in favor of trying A. chensiensis, recurvata, and cephalonica in front. We'll see how it does.

davidrt28, Don Hilliker is closing his Chirstmas tree operation and seedling sales due to age/health rather than lack of profits (though he admits he's feeling the effects of the poor economy as well). I wish more than anything that I had the time and money to take over his operation. My 40+ hour work week wouldn't leave much time to run a separate business venture let alone look after my own family, pets, and plantings!

thanks for the input bboy, I guess I'll stick with the one plant I have rather than adding more. It's too bad; I love the needle color and arrangement A. magnifica and A. procera have to offer!

I think the 1949 Rehder manual mentions noble fir doing well in the east, I don't have a copy to check this. It certainly has better, more orderly foliage than red fir - although the latter produces a more tidy crown.

That's good to know about noble fir. I do have A. procera 'glauca' as well as two different A. procera seedling provenances potted up in my holding area awaiting permanent planting on the property. There is a mature specimen in Highland Park in Rochester, NY (similar climate to here) but that specimen has a pretty open and ratty looking crown. I don't know if that is typical for mature specimens, but it has deterred me from planting mine in a prominent location in the landscape. That one will have to be a "we'll see" attempt too!

"The temperature description matches my local climate exactly. The snow pack here from lake effect snow isn't quite as much as described above but is pretty close and consistent from year to year. The summer dry spell is the only difference as we get sporadic summer rains keeping things moist and happy"

One other significant difference is summer humidity, and consequent night temperatures. Low humidity and high altitude in the Sierra Nevada means summer nights are chilly, probably only rarely over 10�C, not easy growing conditions for fungi. Conversely, high summer humidity where you are traps heat at night (I'd guess you often have nights that don't drop below 20�C?). These conditions are much better for fungal diseases; that's a major reason why so many western N American trees perform poorly in the east of the continent.

Resin

Hey Resin,
Average monthly minimum temperature for summers in my area (ie. average low temperature at night) is 63.3 F (17.4C) and the average monthly maximum temperature for summers in my area (ie. average high temperature during the day) is 80.4 F (26.9C). Granted this is the average and half the days will be above this and half below, our summers are relatively mild. I know, nowhere near as mild as much of the UK! I'm hoping we have enough cooling at night to allow for some relief from the humidity for some of the west coast conifers I've collected. I wish the climate records I have for the past 50+ years for my area showed humidity highs . . . !

I think the fact it ranges a little lower than Sequoiadendron explains why Calocedrus can do so well on the Mid-Atlantic. Even after this hellish summer, my small plants looked great. I've seen them just outside of Colfax, at 2400 ft., which isn't very cool at night by Northern California standards.

http://www.wrcc.dri.edu/cgi-bin/cliGCStT.pl?ca1912

OTOH, Sequoiadendron doesn't range below 4600 ft. in the N and 5500 ft. in the south of its somewhat limited range. Looks like the range for the fir is even higher in elevation.

You might want to contact Holmes Hollow Nursery, they might have experience with that species in your area.
http://www.holmeshollow.com/
That's where I saw the A. recurvata.

I meant "in the Mid-Atlantic" [region]
Resin's hectoring joke of a few months ago must have gotten to me.
Although I suspect Calocedrus would do just fine on Terceira, too.

Hey davidrt28, thanks for the input on calocedrus. I have two of those guys planted out - so far so good with those! My Sequoiadendron seedlings will be going through their second winter this year on the property. There's a beautiful young Sequoiadendron down in East Aurora, NY southeast of Buffalo. The plant has little to no damage from winter or disease, really nice to see and makes me hopeful mine will look as nice!

That's good to know there's a good size A. recurvata at Holmes Hollow Nursery. Next time I'm out in the Rochester area, I'll have to swing by and check it out!

Hey Evan,

I believe (not 100%) that Abies chensiensis is now A.recurvata. I have (2) grafts from scions at Cornell you sent as A.chensiensis that Resin changed the name to: A.recurvata var. ernestii. Do you still have a graft of that tree for yourself? I could send one of mine to you next spring.

Glad to hear another year of seedlings from Don will be available. Very glad to hear. Please do photograph his place if you are given permission.

Dax

Hey Dax,

I remember our discussion about A. chensiensis var. ernestii being changed to A. recurvata. However, is that just the variety or are all A. chensiensis now A. recurvata? Are the two subspecies of A. chensiensis (Subsp. yulongxueshanensis and Subsp. salouenensis) also now subspecies of A. recurvata? If all A. chensiensis are now A. recurvata, then I have four A. recurvata seedlings in my holding area that Don sold me as A. chensiensis. Perhaps I will take pictures to confirm their ID with the knowledgable folks here. I still have the three grafts from the A. recurvata var. ernestii at Cornell. One of the three is much beefier than the others and should really take off for me this spring/summer. I had to stake them to get them growing straight though - they were grafts from lateral branches.

Hi Treeguy - nope, it was just var. ernestii that was transferred from A. chensiensis to A. recurvata. The others all remain in A. chensiensis.

Resin

Right on.

Thanks Resin,

Dax