OK .. i hooked another one .. lol ..

good decision based on toe curlage .... with that as your basis ... WHO CARES HOW BIG IT WILL GET ..... will you give up 10 years of curlage... just because it might get tooooo big someday .. pshaw ... plant it were it pleases you most.. and don't give it another thought ...

get it in the ground ASAP .... break up the root ball if it circles around... return native soil [if you have clay ... new post about how to plant properly in clay is necessary] .. do NOT amend.. NEVER fertilize it ... water it well .... mulch it ...

and for this winter.. protect it from winter sun.. and winter wind .... a rose cone if small ... or burlap it ... or something .... no sprays please

timing is perfect.. i am still moving stuff in my zone 5 ...

i have had a hard time with obtusa .... some live.. some die .... some are severely damaged the first year... now that i am thinking about it .... a lot of my failures.. where back when i may not have known better ... just prepare for problems.. like keeping the receipt handy ... in case you have to return it ...

all too often .. the ones that curl the toes.. are tricky .. that is why you don't see them everywhere .... i think the key is a little winter protection this year ...

good luck ... welcome.. and come back often ...

ken

Yep, I'm hooked. They would go due east, in a foundation planting, (maybe 3' from house) so pretty well protected from the harshest wind.

I'm being much more cautious than usual because these are really pricey IMO. 2'tall $75.each. And I need two of them. Plus I've got the rest of the space to fill, but that's next years project.

Bottom line, would it be better to wait till EARLY spring? I just want to do what would be safest. Thanks for your help. Sandy

key words .. lol ... i NEED two ... lol ...

are they going on clearance???? or is 75 the cheap price ???

will they be guaranteed???? if so ... do it now..

if no guarantee ... perhaps early spring would be better.. to recover root mass.. before the first winter???

i just don't know.. and don't want to guide you the wrong way ... flip a coin .. i just don't want to lead you in the wrong direction ... and cause uncurlage [can you believe that isnt in my spellcheck ..] .... lol

good luck whatever the decision ......

ken

Much appreciated. Think I'll wait and save the headaches. But its closeby so I'll drive out there tomorrow and ask about guarantee and current price.

This is a wholesale nursery who went retail last year. I know well-known local landscapers use them, because I've seen their trucks picking things up, but nothing is priced! You have to ask someone to look it up. Hate that! And the guarantee may be different for landscapers and DIY's.

Yes, LOL, I NEED two. LOL They are going on either side of our front door. Trying to bring some semblence of order to a center entrance colonial. Very hard for a person who likes random plantings. But even if only these two are the same, thats enough order for me.

Thanks for your help and sharing your experience. And I forgot to thank you for the welcome to the forum. Actually I'm here a lot, but don't have much to offer as yet so I stick to reading and looking at everyones wonderful pictures. Sandy

No uncurlage anytime soon. There are way too many amazing choices in conifers. I've also enjoyed the link you posted to a nursery in another thread. And prices look pretty good, but I didn't check shipping.

Welcome Sandy! I share your enthusiasm for the Hinoki's -- nice choice for the front of a colonial porch entry. Don't know how much difference there is in Zone 5a and 5b, but wanted to let you know I've had really good luck with mine in 5b (except the yellow one planted in full blazing winter sun and wind -- duh). I think I have 6 now, all doing well in pretty shady, sheltered area. I did plant one this summer at the SE corner of our front porch, and hope it will be sheltered enough this winter. Good luck with yours, and again, welcome!

I can't speak to the growth habit of this plant in colder zones, but it is one of the faster growing selections and will definitely get larger than the 6' quoted. I have several at my nursery that already exceed that height :-)) "Compacta" is a pretty generic descriptor for many conifers (and other shrubby plants as well) and generally refers to a dense, pyramidal habit rather than to specific size.

And you do realize that the size designation of Hinokis and other dwarf conifers is very relative and relates to rate of growth rather than ultimate size. Because of its fast growth, I'd be very reluctant to consider C.obtusa 'Compacta' a truly dwarf conifer.

Irregular growth habit won't look very formal, either. Doesn't seem like the kind of plant likely to be associated with Colonial architecture. Also: beware of matching pairs and other symmetrical balance in front of anything other than a perfectly symmetrical facade. If front of house not completely symmetric use asymmetrical balance at the door instead, something like a large shrub to the right and a small shrub and a medium shrub together on the left. Total volume on each side is the same, creating balance, but they are not matched pairs.

Formal symmetry in front of asymmetric facades (and in other informal settings) looks out of place.

Known to date back as far as 1875, the name C. obtusa 'Compacta' is "now in use for several selections" (World Checklist of Conifers). Two 'Compacta' clones being sold in UK eventually became distinguished under the new names 'Compact Fernspray' and 'Compact Pyramid'. Perhaps the latter is being sold in North America as 'Compacta':

"A dense, conical seedling from 'Nana Gracilis' with spreading branches and crowded sprays. Clearly a cultivar, it was first distributed under the confused name compacta 'Den Ouden', corrected by its author [Den Ouden] in 1965" (same reference)

Or, we have our own set of C. obtusa 'Compacta' clones originating here. Probably there are (or have been) both selections of domestic origin as well as imports on the market in North America. Maybe there really is just one plant being sold on the continent under that name at the moment, but that is not likely. Old garden plants with Latin cultivar names tend to become represented by multiple independent introductions over the years.

think about de groots spire.. for thin upright to frame the doorway ... will post pix.. need to take the kids to school .. hope this brain cell doesnt die before i get back .. ken

listen ... to my typing.. lol ...

start a new post with a picture.. learn photobucket if you need ...

forget the hinoki .. too much money .... and probably not what you want for the doorway .... find another place.. and buy one.. if you succeed .. then try others ... as a collector ... more than one of anything is a waste of money .. there are many yellow tinged versions of the hinoki ... once you make one live ...

for the doorway .. consider ... subject to pix of your front door .... Thuja occidentalis De Groots Spire

this one is about 8 feet tall .. by about 18 inches... note the blue pen as a guide .... a pure.. thin .. vertical ... which would be nice to formalize the vertical door .... and leave the rest of the riot ... its your house.. who are you conforming too????
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here are some babes in my nursery .... they grow about a foot a year, if happy .. when established .... i suggest a grouping of 3.. in triangle.. OF THREE DIFFERING heights ...
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in 10 years.. they will probably get too big.. depending on your house height.. at which time.. i would start new ones .... no planting would ever be considered static.. there for the eternity of the house ....

and regarding the curlage... find a better place for the hinoki .. they are awesome.. but shouldn't be squeezed into the wrong place..

you should be able to find de groots VERY cheap ....relatively speaking .... ken

Good points, all. You've saved me from a costly and surely heartbreaking mistake. As I said in OP, we've already had to remove overgrown, poorly maintained evergreens--twice.

Bboy, this Center Entrance Colonial is as symmetrical as they come. Center door, window centered on each side, and second floor windows directly above each of them. 6ft. between door and window and 5 1'2 from window to end of house. Never even thought about Hinoki not looking "formal". Probably why they appeal to me in the first place. I seem to be drawn to quirky plantings, and even people. LOL I'm thinking something like Alberta Spruce would be considered formal. Frankly, its about the only conifer I really don't like--too rigid, like growing plastic. But your point is well taken.

I was going by the restaurant where I first discovered Hinoki this morning and stopped to look. It was gone! Checked the whole landscape to see if maybe they moved it, but its gone. Hot dry summer in full sun must have done it in.

Thanks for all the help and the warm welome. I'll find another place for Hinoki some day, but first gotta get this darn front figured out. Sandy

If whole front yard is being made into or is already formal landscape with geometric layout that relates to house facade, then matching pairs at door will go with that. Otherwise, they will just add to the disparity between the symmetry of the facade and the asymmetry of the part of the garden that is in front of it. If you don't make the whole area seen with the symmetric house facade behind it over into a corresponding geometric layout you will always have that conflict in style between that part of the garden and the backdrop provided by the house. Imitating a formal house facade on the ground in front of it, with planting is a way to integrate the artificiality of the symmetric facade into the surrounding scene containing natural elements. Plants are natural, an unnatural layout made up of plants constitutes a hybrid scene that serves as a transition. Coming from the world, you approach the house through a zone where the pattern of the house facade is comparatively gently introduced by plants on the ground, before you are confronted by the actual facade itself. Of course, the small face of a bungalow is not as imposing as that of a mansion, but the contrast in tone between formal facades and informal planting in front (and vice versa) is still noticeable regardless of the size of the structure involved.

Bboy, given the dimensions of space between windows and door to end of house, its no mansion. Adding approx. 3'each for windows and door, its only about 32'. At the moment, the only other things in the yard are two Crimson Maple near the road, which is maybe 30-40' from the house.

I've read your post many times and am having a little trouble. I think what you're saying is the foundation plantings should introduce the architechture of the house. Is that correct? If so, it finally makes sense to me. Other than the artificial looking Alberta Spruce (which grows too slow, anyway) what would do that? I was considering Wichita Blue Juniper flanking the door for a while, but most of the older ones I see have gotten pretty scraggly. There are several in the restaurant landscaping I mentioned earlier, that look beautiful now but they are young plants. Thanks for your time and consideration. I'm not very good with visualizing, and am still learning how to identify one conifer from another. Sandy

What I was saying was the whole front yard, to be completely in step with a symmetric house facade, needs to be geometrically symmetric as well. If you are starting with a mostly empty slate, and want to try and get this effect then the most direct way is to pretty much duplicate the design of the house on the ground in front of it. Rectangular beds edged with small, clipped shrubs could correspond to the windows, and so on. Sounds silly here, but it is an effective ploy - and could hardly be more ridiculous than formal pairs, hedges and topiaries scattered around without relation to anything else in view - a very common occurrence.

Even if you just had square lawns, with matching maples at the start of the front walk and matching conifers at the front door, although spare at least those elements so arranged would go with the design of the house.

Got it. That's what I thought your meant. Thank you. Thank you. Sandy

i removed two 10 foot Wichita Blue Juniper this year because of the tip death problem .... and may remove a bunch of others .... within the same family .... google the full latin name including 'tip disease' as i cant remember the disease name right now ....

out in the field... it doesn't bother me .. as much as the two near the house [formerly near the house] ... that i had to look at all the time ... but... they burn nicely ...

you can do better ...

now get the camera.. get out front.. and give us a picture ... please ...

ken

here you go ... tip blight ...

i have a neighbor .. who lined the fence with about 20 Wichita blues... half are diseased .. and i figure that is why i have a big problem with it here ... but it is very common ...

and these are the type ... who want the living fence.. but would never 'look' at the plant to see the problem .. let alone be talking in to removing the problem plants... let alone care if they impact my collection ... otherwise great neighbors.. lol ...

it probably wouldn't matter anyway .. as it is so common .. short of chemical intervention ... which i am not interested in ... there is nothing to do .. but avoid junipers that are susceptible .... and it isn't all of them ...

most of the time i say .. don't let your decision be made by POTENTIAL problems or disease .. but in my experience.. this is one you are not going to avoid through shear luck ...

it wont kill a plant.. most of the time.. but just make it scraggly enough that it will irritate you .. and therefore.. something you do NOT want at your houses prime focal point...

ken

Here is a link that might be useful: google results

Ken, you've described just what I've observed with most of the ones around here too. I agree, look like they'd burn well. Those DeGroot are beautiful, though. What a yard! Had a reply all typed yesterday when I got a phone call and had to shut down quickly and lost it. Busy day today too. Later, Sandy

Bboy's garden design principles for a symmetrical house make good sense, but one doesn't always have to be driven by good sense, and sometimes, good sense simply doesn't apply. For example, I also live in a perfectly symmetrical house (a little Victorian) but my neighbours have a huge conifer at the property line that has always dominated the yard, making such a dominant asymmetry that the symmetry of the house has become insignificant (tree is coming down next week FOR SURE for those of you who've followed this extended drama). Other aspects of the neighbouring houses and yards also contribute to an asymmetrical effect in my case; open space on one side and close neighbour on the other. There is also a sideways slope to the ground. Those contextual considerations combined with my own preference for plant collecting over objectively suitable landscaping will probably always mean that mine will be an asymmetrical garden on a symmetrical house.

You might drop over to the Landscape Design Forum for some discussion of your particular landscape issues, if there are things you're stuck about, as there are things an objective bystander can often solve that you can't, but that needn't be dictatorial. I am a big fan of landscaping to reflect yourself, as well as the house.

KarinL

What "dictates" what works is how the mind's eye sees things. Would you wear one blue shoe and one red shoe? Planting that doesn't have the same type of symmetry as the house (or other element) that forms the backdrop or otherwise dominates the scene makes the whole "uncoordinated", just like mismatched apparel.

hmmm...bboy, I think I understand what you are trying to say the style of my home is classic Cape with additions and varying roof lines but I have a 60 ft x 15-20 ft front entry garden. This garden is a year round in your face garden (no winter snow cover) now after many years of unsuccessful attempts I have filled the beds with dwarf conifers and evergreens sprinkled with a few deciduous shrubs but I find myself planting little round donuts trying not to mimic the lines of the house. There is definitely something off by having this style of garden acting as a necklace around a cape style home. Yes I suppose I have been told I need more linear plants but honestly my goal is not to hide the architecture of the home but to accent it. kt

Not necessarily. A symmetrical house does not require a similarly symmetrically planned garden to generate a coordinated look. It depends totally on how the entire landscape is approached as well as the greater context. In fact, a distinctly asymmetrical (and by extension, a more informal or casual) landscape plan can soften the starkness that often accompanies very symmetrical architecture.

Like KarinL's, my own home is extremely symmetrical - a Cape Cod style with a perfectly centered entry flanked by identical windows spaced exactly the same on the facade. The only thing NOT symmetrical about the structure is its placement on the lot - one side yard is approximately double the width of the other. And the narrow side has (had) a slight slope to a lower level. When we purchased the house, the front landcaping consisted only of a large, diseased conifer at the crest of the slope, pretty much a blank slate. The rest was lawn, bisected by the front walk.

After living with the symmetry for a number of years and planting pretty much to accommodate it, it struck me that the presentation was much too static and well, boring. The walk was ripped up, the entry to the garden was relocated well to one side and a gradually curved, wide meandering walkway was installed to lead you from this offset entrance to the front door. The mirror image patches of lawn were trashed and became deep, irregularly shaped planting beds. The only concession to symmetry is the proportion and balance of the planting masses. The effect now is a much more aesthetically interesting presentation.

But these are indeed landscape design issues and perhaps more appropriately addressed in the appropriate forum. But it is important to remember that there are no hard "rules" when it comes to landscaping and just because one has a home with a very symmetrical appearance, it does not necessarily follow that the landscaping must echo that symmetry. I'd venture to say that you will have a far more interesting and successful landscape if it does not.

It depends on how visible and dominating the house (or other feature) is. By now gardengal48's garden may be the dominating feature, rather than the house.

Breenthumb
I really like Kens suggestion of the Thuja occidentalis De Groots Spire the texture is beautiful and a triangle of varying sizes would be a wonderful focal point. If for some reason that doesnÂt work for you you might consider Chameacyparis thyoides ÂRubicon'. I love the winter color and it has stayed true to itÂs description of being a slow grower. Keep in mind my knowledge of conifers is limited to the few in my yard that have survived my neglect. The written description is from a plant tag.
The thyoides group of chammies are native to the eastern US, dwelling in our coastal pine barrens and swampy areas. 'Rubicon' grows slowly to become an erect column of very fine foliage...tiny needles are stacked like tightly packed overlapped stars. Winter color is a spectacular plum-purple. During the growing season, the plant is silvery green. Final height is around 10 feet, but it will take many years of slow growth to reach this size. This genus is adaptable to drier sites as well. Hardy in zones 3-8, grows about 3-6 inches a year.
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Great Winter Color
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The Stars

oh my ..l. in my world.. for what ever that is worth ...

NEVER MIMIC THE architecture ....

either mock it ... lol ... or add to it ...

but you have to do something to 'break it up' .....

e.g. .... if i had a linear frank lloyd wright house .... i might go all vertical ....

let the house be what the house is... and let the garden be what the garden is .... THEY DO NOT HAVE TO MATCH ... probably along the lines of my weirder the better theme .. lol ..

of course.. frank would have probably dictated the garden for the total concept.. but you get 'my' idea ...

and i like your comment ... 'my knowledge of conifers is limited to the few in my yard that have survived my neglect' ... conifers really are bullet proof .. once they get past the transplant.. and presuming you aren't pushing the zone ... that is why i switched from foo foo plants.. to conifers ... like i could care for 5 acres of foo foo ...

i am still hoping breenthumb can get a picture.. start a new post.. if you email the pic.. i can post it for you ... but you would have to start the post ... i really wouldn't want all the replies to my mailbox.. if GW could ever get that straightened out ...

ken

Very interesting discussions going on about symmetrical plantings. Agree this has become more suited to the Landcaping Forum (way past original Hinoki Q.) Have done some reading over there and will again, but in the meantime, I'm really enjoying this forum. Lots of great input. And the pictures here...

The front yard has recently been drastically altered by removal of a tree that had grown large enough to shade and hide the side of our house opposite the walk and driveway. Suddenly the entire house was visible as a whole. I had never thought of it that way! Strange but true. I'd been merrily planting away between the house and walk and pretty much ignoring the other side. No problem. Suddenly the house LOOMED UP, as if I'd seen it for the first time.

All I'd like to do is get the "bones" right--the very foundation. Really just boils down to two flanking the doorway. Overgrown arborvite came out of there same time large tree was removed so, since Hinoki is a real gamble size and healthwise, I will probably just replace it along with one on newly discovered side. I always liked it, and the T.O. Sunkist shorter version. And yet ...what to do with these curling toes???

KT, spectacular! I've never seen anything like that Rubicon. And your yard is beautiful too. As I said, so many wonderful pictures.

Ken, looks like I'll have to go digital. I took pictures with my old camera just to have something to take with me to the nurseries, and they worked fine. But no way to post. Haven't had a need for camera in a long time, but sure wish I had it now. Sounds like a good winter project, so I can get ideas for early spring planting. Sandy