lasagna method - planting tender roses??

15 years ago

Hi!

We moved, and our new yard has tree roots and rocks in all the beds. It's nearly impossible to dig.

I have about 30 rose bushes to plant with most of them tender roses. It's too difficult to plant them, and raised beds will take my husband too long. I was thinking of trying the lasagna method.

If I do these are my questions.

1. If I plant the rose through the lasagna layers, the rose will still be on the top of the unworkable soil. How will my roses get down deeply enough to be properly protected for winter? I know the rose and soil would settle, but deeply enough to be winter protected??

2. Would I have to wait until next spring for my soil to be ready?

Please help!

Thanks,

Carol :)

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Comments (12)

oilpainter
15 years ago
Do you have something that you can make a ring of for the roses --edging stapled together, old tires or even a box made from scrap lumber. You could plant your roses in soil in the ring and do the lasagna method around them then cover the whole lot with a good layer of straw for the winter
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canadian_rose
Original Author
15 years ago
I don't know how that would work. The roses would have to be planted with the graft 6 inches below ground level and then mulched. So how would the roses get that low in the ground? Would the tire and the roses really sink that much? Would be nice if that were so. What do you think?

Thanks,
Carol
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Pat Lanza uses soil, peat moss, and compost in her layers, which is why she is able to plant immediately. She's essentially putting growing medium on top of sod. After I bought her ridiculous book, I rushed out and did what you did---created a raised bed out of raw feedstock and some compost, and planted a garden in it. The garden survived, but the plants revealed deficiencies. I think that the moist mulch layers kept the plants from dying until their roots were able to reach the soil underneath. Pat Lanza is the empress who wears no clothes, a fraud who stole Ruth Stout's methods and claimed them as her own. She claims that you can pile up OM and plant in it, but unless you use the soil and peat moss that she does, you are essentially building a fresh compost pile and hoping your plants will survive until the layers break down. Any idiot (including Pat Lanza) can put soil on soil and plant in it. Without soil layers, 'lasagna gardening' does not work as Lanza describes. The good news is that you're not planting until next spring and the layers you've piled will have broken down greatly by then, and yes, your rose will need to be planted into the soil under the layers. I do build gardens using the deep mulch method, but without soil plugs, they cannot be planted in immediately.
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Ive never tried lasangna gardening, but so far as piling material around the small tree- i have a rose of sharon in a corner where I garden. It literally sprang up out of nowhere. I hate it and tried to chop it down, but i got lazy, and so I piled around it. Much to my dismay, it's still alive. So I dont think you'll kill your tree, either. As for the bush, i'm not so sure. The only thing that I would consider with lasagna gardening is the drainage. I once asked my ladscaper if I could just layer 2-3 feet of soil on top of my grass, and he told me that the drainage would become an issue unless I ripped out the grass... and then at that point, you might as well just plant normally. Things like carrots might have a problem if the material isn't deep enough. I tried carrots in a 2 ft deep container, and they were still pathetic little things.
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Welcome to gardening and these forums! Instead of constantly fighting with the weeds in the "really overgrown beds," it would be best to get started smothering them with lots of thick layers of cardboard, or even plastic, and something to hold it down when the wind blows, like rocks. You don't really want to weed-wack poison ivy at all anyway. I wouldn't recommend any further amendments until you know the already-growing ivy and thistles are gone for good. Chemicals do not usually kill thistles or english ivy unless you use really nasty stuff and/or apply it multiple times, so I wouldn't bother. You'll need to be vigilant about sprouts of new weeds for a few years in all of the beds because it sounds like many weed seeds have been produced and allowed to fall right in the yard. Once those have all sprouted, you'll only have a normal amount of weed seeds brought in by birds and wind. The distinction of "lasagna" vs. "amending soil" is a barrier of usually newspaper or cardboard that is placed at the bottom to smother existing weeds - but not weeds as tough as ivies and thistles. It's not usually practical or necessary around existing plantings. All you need to do in the area with roses & butterfly bushes is amend the soil by adding some compost and mulch once or twice a year. Weeds will still show up but will be easy to pull. Weeding is much easier if it is part of what you do while admiring your flowers. When you let it go to the point where you realize "I need to go pull weeds," it's really un-fun and time-consuming. You can also pile some leaves in the area (as long as they aren't mostly oak leaves) to encourage worms to take-up residence. Mother nature, with the help of worms and microbes, will redistribute nutrients from decomposing organic material at the surface into the soil where it can be used by the roots. Good soil structure takes years to develop and should not be disturbed except when you need to dig a hole for a new plant. The next time you dig a planting hole, use a dandelion fork or screwdriver to poke little holes at the bottom of the big hole. By just adding 4" of finely shredded hardwood mulch to heavy clay soil, it will be noticeably improved by next spring, and it will get darker, richer, with more improved tilth and humus every year as long as you keep adding compost and mulch to maintain the top layer. Poison ivy (or oak or sumac) is a specialty weed in that the oil (urishiol) that gives people a rash does not die when the plant is killed. All parts: dead leaves, stems, and roots remain poisonous until it is decomposed. Urishiol can also retain its' potency for a long time on objects that have touched poison ivy. You should NEVER BURN POISON IVY (or oak or sumac) because the urishiol can become airborne and inhaled. It should be sealed in a plastic bag and sent to the landfill, not put with other yard waste where it might get included in municipal mulch. If you have a lot of...
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oilpainter
15 years ago
No they wouldn't sink but I assumed you could get it a bit into the bed--if not then it wouldn't work
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canadian_rose
Original Author
15 years ago
Hmm.... wouldn't being in a raised bed affect the zone the roses could handle?

:)
Carol
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ianna
14 years ago
I wouldn't recommend it. Lasagna beds tend to be loose and roses need sturdy ground in order to strengthen it's roots. Not to mention it leaves the roses vulnerable to freeze and thaws of winter. It's great for fertilizing and conditioning but unsuitable as a rose bed.

Large raised beds would probably work but it has to be really large ones. Unfortunately large beds take time to make and you have a more immediate need to get the plants in the ground.

It's not okay to leave the plants in the containers over winter... The cold temps will kill them. Also I agree with your observation re the tire method. I'm not convinced that this offers good protection over winter.

Another observation: Tree roots will compete with your plants for moisture. So putting your plants near any roots would be a problem. You may have to deal with those roots. Perhaps cutting them out and setting up root barriers.

My thoughts are: concentrate on creating a temporary housing bed until your actual bed is ready for use. It would be simpler to order a truckload of earth and have that dumped in a spot where you could keep your potted plants buried and protected until such time that you are ready. If you have straw bale available you could probably form a large box with the pots inside and topped of with the soil - which you will probably reuse once their permanent bed is ready for use.

You will have to work that hard pack soil eventually. I would deal with that no matter how difficult it is. Some of those roots may need to be trimmed off. I'd probably start off with a double digging method which allows you to renew the earth a little at a time - which means that you could plant the roses a couple of pots at a time. In order to renew the soil, I use compost, new topsoil, composed manure, maybe some bonemeal.

just my thoughts on how to approach this dilemma.

Ianna
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canadian_rose
Original Author
14 years ago
Thanks Ianna!

I guess, after reading all the above thoughts, that I'm going to get really big pots and pot them all up. I'll put them in the garage over winter on a rolling cart so that I can take them in and out of the garage in the spring when the cold nights would be too cold, yet the warm days will be good. It will be expensive, but my husband owes me for moving me here!! :)

Thanks again!
Carol
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nutsaboutflowers
14 years ago
Hi there. I have some thoughts on this which are totally different than those expressed so far. I'll try to keep it as short as possible. ( I hope this doesn't sound like a lecture. It isn't meant to be. )

Is money a big consideration? What would your 30 roses be worth to replace if they can't stand the winter in pots in your garage? What will the big pots and soil to fill them cost? Will you have to leave a car outside all winter to accommodate your roses? I don't know what zone you used to live in, but zone 3a is pretty darn cold in the winter and I for one wouldn't plug in my car and scrape windows and remove snow all winter to accommodate my roses.

So, also a little background so you can understand where I'm coming from. We bought our house with a neglected yard 5 years ago. It's been an uphill battle since. If I had realized how much back breaking work it was going to be, not to mention the enormous amount of time and after a few years, a really frustrating process, I would have done what I'm going to suggest might be a solution for you.

Can your yard be accessed with a small bobcat? Get a guy to come in, remove your rocks and crappy soil, have him bring you some good topsoil, a bit of manure or whatever you prefer to use, etc., plant your beautiful roses, and be done with it.

Trust me you'll be much happier with the results =:)
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nutsaboutflowers
14 years ago
Canadian Rose

What did you think of my suggestion?
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marciaz3 Tropical 3 Northwestern Ontario
14 years ago
I have kept roses in containers over the winter but buried them in the vegetable garden. Just a thought in case it helps. :)
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ianna
14 years ago
nutsabout flowers makes sense... I'm not sure I'm all for housing the potted roses in a garage. They need to be exposed to winter as well. Unless this garage is a greenhosue of sorts. However you need to protect their roots which is why I was saying order in a truckload of earth and bury your potted roses in it. The earth will form some steady insulation until you are ready to plant them out in their beds. It's very much the same as what Marciaz3 does with her potted roses.
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nutsaboutflowers
14 years ago
Canadian Rose

I'm curious how your roses are doing and what you've decided to do?
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nutsaboutflowers
14 years ago
Hi Canadian Rose.

Have you planted your roses ?

What did you decide to do?
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lasagna method - planting tender roses??

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lasagna method - planting tender roses??

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