Planting under a mature Pinus strobus

14 years ago

I have asked this question before, I think? :) But, Ihave a large White pine that has been limbed up, but has a massive root system. I'm looking for some conifers to plant under it but dont know what to plant? The area faces the South, is somewhat dry from the root system and gets about 4-5 hours of sun a day. I've noticed that Japanese maples do very well under it as do a few other pines. Would I have best luck to stick with pines, because they have taproots as as oppossed to firs and spruces that have spreading roots systems? Would certain pines be better than other? Strobus? parviflora?

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Comments (5)

ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5
14 years ago
hey nick of NOT Toronto ...

i dont buy your tap rot theory ... based on 40 years of experience ... but i am not going to argue it.. nor care to read about the science.. i will leave that all to the tree geeks.. rotflmbo .. if tap roots were that big a deal ... i would not have been able to mail order hundreds of bare root trees .. nor ever dig one up .... anyway ....

the single issue is water .. and as related.. the soil ... below massive giant trees ...

GO DIG A HOLE.. then lets have this discussion ...

i predict.. under large mature pines.. you are going to find highly compacted.. nearly cement like soil.. that hasnt been turned or worked.. in 30.. 50.. as many years as those trees are there ... trust me.. i have tried ... and i am not talking about virgin forest with hundreds of years of compost under trees ....

so lets say you dig a hole.. if you amend it.. where will the pines send roots?? so you must stay with native soil ...

then.. you place your plant.. and you need to water it heavily for at least two years ... and where are the pines.. [any large tree] ... going to grow roots ... into your struggling new plant ... so you should probably broadcast your water.. so as to not attract the trees to your babes ... [it should be obvious.. at planting.. the hole/plant MUST be watered .. i hope anyway]

its NOT that it cant be done.. but i submit.. your honor.. ITS ALL ABOUT YOUR ABILITY to work the soil .... and more importantly.. provide the water a small plant will need under this 50 to 100 foot monster ...

dig the hole.. tell us what you find ... i bet it wont be all that many roots ...

and NEVER fertilize a HOLE under a tree ... trees just arent that stupid ... they will find the food ...

so no matter what you plant.. it will be all about getting a babe enough water under a monster.. without stimulating the monster to take over ....

if you havent heard.. i grow hosta under trees ... and water is the ONLY basic issue ... boy did i screw up years ago.. hand watering under my beloved freakin maple .... lol .. the maple figured it out.. before i put the hose away ... lol ... not to mention i fertilized individual plants by hand .. oh well.. live and learn .... i moved to get away from that maple ...

ken

ps: if you find a big root.. you move your hole.. dont cut the root.. it will grow new roots right there ... go figure ...
tsugajunkie z5 SE WI ♱
14 years ago
In the wild I see a number of things growing near Pinus strobus. Things like Pinus resinosa, abies balsamea, Picea abies, other Pinus strobus, but it does basically come down to what Ken said. Working with the soil and watering. One possible problem with planting more Pinus strobus or even parviflora below it is that if some critter or disease comes along that affects the big boy, it could affect the closely related little ones below.

tj
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I like the color... It still has the open appearance just like my 2' plant. But it's less noticeable and a little fuller since it's so much larger. It may fill in as the years pass. Where is this going anyhow? You said no wider than 4' in 5-7 years, but you didn't include the height. If that plant is 4' tall now, and it grows 6" a year... it should be close to 8' tall in the next 7 years. I'm not sure I would stick that plant in a 4' space next to a house. If you have room for this Pine, a much better selection and one of my all time favorites would be Pinus contorta 'Taylor's Sunburst'. You can't beat the 2-3 month show it puts on with the yellow flush. They both pretty much have the same 10 year size estimate (6' x 3'). The problem you have is that your tree is already large and it may fill your space very quick. If you got something smaller, it would take much longer for it to fill in.
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Thanks! Dax - Mine came from a different supplier... but that's good to know that our plants resemble the same characteristics. For that reason, I'll ID it as Stonybrook unless someone tells me otherwise. I did google 1 gallon regular Pinus strobus and they do look almost identical. Either a lot of scion wood is going around for this plant as an ordinary Pinus strobus as mentioned above OR we have 2 different conifers under the same name. Our plants being the misidentified ones. Maybe it'll develop some unique characteristics as it ages. Right now it just resembles an ordinary pine which is a little bit disappointing since I ordered it hoping it would have the light gray twisted branches.
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Me loves the twisted strobus foliage. Is there another conifer that can match the interestingly twisted varieties produced by our native white pine? That is a healthy and happy plant you've got there. I'd be a bit concerned about the ultimate size of this one. There may be information out there to refute this, but I'm not sure there is such a thing as a miniature P. strobus. This is squarely in the for-what-it's-worth category, but I'd be inclined to move it where it could grow to its full potential. My garden would be a wonderful choice if yours won't tolerate it. :) Some will no doubt disagree with this, but I think we should plant as if we intend for it to stay there until the nature of things takes it, and not because it doesn't fit my garden needs. It may be classified as a dwarf, but that doesn't mean it can't achieve some size to it. I certainly don't judge those who believe and garden under a different philosophy, but I do believe this approach ultimately has greater rewards. I've slowly come to this way of thinking, and you'll find groups of plantings where this philosophy was not present when planting was done. I guess that's one of the great things about gardening.
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I think this is a transplant issue, rather than water. 6 weeks ago (early May), wouldn't this plant have already started to push new growth in your area? Even if it didn't have active bud push by then, the white tips on the roots would certainly have already begun growing. In my experience, this is about the worst time to transplant a conifer, because any disturbance to the root system during this vulnerable stage can cause what you see here. How did you transplant it? Did you remove most of the media and untangle the roots. That's how I like to do it, I want as little of the original media possible to remain and make sure all roots are spread out. Even intense root surgery usually works out ok, as long as the plant is dormant, but if it is actively growing, the results are not good. The new growth just wilts. Notice the existing needles appear to be okay. You might still have a shot of saving this tree, I'd snip off the dead new growth immediately so the tree has a chance to set new buds for next year, might be too late though. Only thing you can do at this point is ensure you are properly watering. Don't be afraid of it, just check the soil. I know when I first started collecting conifers, the watering made me nervous, always afraid of over/under watering. But... it simply comes down to understanding your soil and physically checking for moisture. If you haven't already done so, I dig a 1x1 hole, fill with water, let it drain, fill it again and time how long it takes to empty. For conifers, faster is generally better, as most like good drainage. If it takes over 2 hrs, you are probably going to have problems, unless you plant high. Doing this test will give you a good understand of how long water is sitting around the roots after rain or watering. Then its up to you to check the soil using index finger to second knuckle to check for moisture.
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Embothrium
14 years ago
The needle drop under white pines is a problem. You have to keep picking them out of things planted beneath.
nikkie_in_toronto
Original Author
14 years ago
Thank you guys for all your help. I do think you guys are right that I need to supplement water, but the acer palmatums thrive under there so I wanted to add some contrast with a few conifers. I find that the growth rate of *most* of the conifers I plant is often severely stunted after a year or two. I do not know what other Pinus are grafted onto, but had assumed if they were grafted onto strobus they would be more successful. What are most pines grafted onto? I would prefer to get some winter color under their in the form of a golden conifer, but perhaps with only 4-5 hours of sun that is asking too much.
gardener365
14 years ago
Hey Nikkie,

Soft Pines are grafted to P. strobus (needles groups of 5)
Hard Pines to P. sylvestris (2-needles per fasicle).
3-needles such as Pinus bungeana are typically grafted to Strobus.

Dax

Planting under a mature Pinus strobus

Comments (5)

ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5

tsugajunkie z5 SE WI ♱

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Planting under a mature Pinus strobus

Comments (5)

ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5

tsugajunkie z5 SE WI ♱

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nikkie_in_torontoOriginal Author

gardener365

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