Fockea edulis-vine die back under 25deg

Pelargonium-no problem

Othonna-geophytic sp. can handle more than shrub type

Ceraria-namaquense, fruticulosa hardier than pygmaea

Cyphostemma juttae, bainesii, curorri, sietzianum, cirrhosum, quinatum, hardyi x juttae, tolerant to 20deg. uter, betiforme most tender, die back at 30deg. vine die back on montagnacii, elephantopus, macrocarpum, laza.

Tylecodon-paniculata survived a hard frost, other sp hardy to about 20-25deg

Busera fagaroides, odorata, microphylla tolerant to about 25deg, lower temps cause branch die back

Operculicarya, older plants tolerant, young die back to tuberous roots. Have a couple young plants killed at 19deg to the ground and sprouted new growth last month from roots

Fouquieria-pupusii, diguetii tip die back under 30deg, fasciculata, splendens, macdougallii no damage

Adenia-can tolerate the cold(20deg) if dry, no frost tolerance

Pachypodium succulentum, bispinosum, saundersii frost hardy to 20deg. decaryi, ambongense, windsorii, no frost tolerant keep above 30deg. densiflorum, horombense, inopinatum, gracilius, eburnum no frost, survived last winter's 19deg with dry soil.

Brighamia, can take light frost and cold temps to 20deg

You guys are my idols! I have spend some time to come to grips with all of this ;-).

Here I am worrying about my Bald Cypress and my Black Pine bonsai with our recent cold snap in MA (20s at night now)! But you guys are out there freezing Madagascan succulents! Cool.

When I ran some of your "research" by a member of the C&S society up here (in particular some of Caudex's experience with freezing temps in CA and pelargonium) his reply was "Well, freezing temps in CA are different than MA"! LOL.

Freezing temps in MA and CA are different :) A night reaching the same low temperature in MA will be colder for longer, the preceding and following days will be cooler, the sun will be weaker, and it will be more humid. I have all those conditions to extremes although never so cold as MA. I figure that any temperature a succulent can take here is safe for anyone, anywhere :) Temperatures here rarely drop below 20F, not once in the last 5 years, but may stay below freezing for several days running. Humidity rarely drops below 90% so condensation is constant problem, we get heavy dew almost every night, frost if it is cold enough, and fog sometimes all day.

I haven't frozen any Madagascan succulents (I don't grow many!) but I have had them down to just a degree or two above freezing. That was with warm days, I suspect if temperatures stayed low during the day they wouldn't last long.

Most cacti, even the most tender ones, I have had down to near freezing. Some develop spots on the skin which are probably fungal, but the results are a permanent scar. E. grusonii does this, which is a shame because it otherwise copes well with sub-freezing temperatures. Probably better ventilation and lower humidity, perhaps warmer days, would avoid such problems. Pediocactus, Sclerocactus, Thelocactus, Rebutia, Sulcorebutia, Tephrocactus, Maihuenia, Oreocereus, some Mammillarias, some Turbinicarpus, some Gymnocalysiums, some Notocactus, and many Echinocereus can cope with my slightly freezing lows. I haven't risked any Copiapoas or Eriosyce below freezing. The only cacti exposed to the rain in winter are a few Echinocereus and a Cleistocactus strausii which I have in a container of mostly grit.

Mesembs are what I grow most of. I have Delospermas, Nananthus, Bergeranthus, Lampranthus (borderline), Drosanthemum (I think also borderline), and Ruschia in the garden, so they are wet all winter. Protected from the rain are many more, Aloinopsis, Stomatiums, Frithia, Titanopsis, Khadia, Vlokia, some Lithops species, some Conophytums. I haven't tested any Fenestrarias, and of the primitive winter rainfall Lithops, Argyroderma, Gibbaeum, or Chreiridopsis. As I have seedlings to spare, a few get left out over winter.

shrubs is right about CA vs MA/NY...that is why I had in disclaimer in my data about the many variables. In my greenhouse, I keep fans running full blast, it is so damn noisy in there that I can't here a thing, not even fire trucks. Also, a cold night if followed by a sunny day will heat up real nice. So for me, air circulation is great and usually it warms up nicely during the day. Still, there are many days in a row in late fall where nights are at or around freezing, and not much warmer in the day. And in my garage mid-winter, nights at around freezing are followed by cool days as well, usu not more than 55F. But humidity in there is practically nil.

I keep Copiapoa cinerea (2), haseltonia, hypogaea, humilis, lauii and dura along with many Eriosyce/ Neoporteria/ Neochilenia together with the rest of the cactus with nary a problem. Add to that the Mexican oddities: Aztekium, Obregonia, Strombocactus and Pelecyphora.

Why do I expose my plants to the cold? Easy. I don't have a choice. There's no place I can keep the plants cool and dormant for many months. They either endure the cold, or I don't grow them. Survival of the fittest. I make exceptions for a few outliers, they are parked inside the house, but 95% of my plants wish they had a hat and gloves.

x

Aulludia procera is said to be hardier than thought. Pretty common as a nursery indoor plant and worth a in ground experiment here.Pachypodium bispinosum is vigorous even now in the cool weather outdoors. I need to find a spot in the ground for it-that should increase cold tolerance by a good ten degrees.

Euphorbia millii loses its leaves at about 40 degrees, as do a number of similar Madagascan euphorbias. I have never dared to expose them to frost, and where I lived the last 15 years (New Orleans) frosts were rare in any case. Though my only white Christmas was there (2004)! If the temperature was supposed to go to the 30 - 35 degree range, I would place other plants - gasteria, aloes, haworthias, epiphytic cacti, Fockea,etc. - under a broadleaf evergreen where they would stay a few degrees warmer. But all the Madagascan plants would go indoors until the cold snap was over!

I am adding Agave attenuata to the list, it looks fine after a few 29 and 30F nights. I have 5 small plants for testing, 3 of them were exposed to the chills. They were dry. This is supposed to be one of the least hardy of the agaves.

Kalanchoe tomentosa, blossfeldiana & beharensis had some minor leaf damage at 30F.

Adansonia fony, the last few nights have been in the mid 30's, last evening we had some frost, foliage still intact. BTW, soil is dry.

Hi all!!

what about these species below?

-Aloe variegata
-Crassula lycopodiodes
-Echinocactus grusonii
-Echinopsis oxygona
-Haworthia attenuata
-Kalanchoe bracteata
-Mammilaria plumosa
-Pachypodium lamerei
-Rebutia muscula
-Sanseveria trifisciata.

I am seriously thinking moving them indoors. Lack of light of course. but at least they will be on a south facing large window. I will just put them on the floor.
for your info night temperature at the moment 3 to 4C (37 to 40F) and it is gonna drop more during winter.

please suggest

P.saundersii hardy all the way down to 20f? wow, we never have those temps and i planted the dwarf in the front yard. It's dormant..has a clean light colored trunk.Cant wait till those glossy leaves return in spring.
Same here on the learning and teaching me to be brave on what i set out!

Hi -

I was just reminiscing about this thread, as I see the first night below 50 degrees possibly coming up this week. Part of me says, it is probably only one night and my succulents have all been treated to nice warm growing days lately - so what would be the harm of one dip below 50 for an hour or so on one or two nights?

Then, I start doing the species "parsing" - well, maybe I will bring in my Adansonia and my Adeniums...and what else then? Commiphora? Euphorbia? Dorstenia?

Then, it is supposed to go back up to the mid to upper 50s for the rest of the week...so, what would you guys do?

Looking for some inspiration.

Tom

If they are dry I wouldn't worry too much...assuming the forecast is accurate and you don't have your plants in a cold spot in your yard. You may get some foliage burn but I would think that a healthy plant from the tropics should be able to briefly handle upper 40's F.

If you are looking to get your plants into a dormancy period, then I'd let the cold signal the plants to stop growing. If you intend on extending the growing season indoors, then don't expose them to the chill.

x

Hi x -

Ahh, dry - that is usually the tricky part. More often than not, these cold snaps are preceded by wet, as the front moves through.

Well, I have until Wednesday night by the forecast so we'll see. If I have the motivation, maybe my more 'tender' guys will find their way into the house... I still have one HID fixture that I am trying to get running (ballast issue), and I am trying to push off when I need to start paying for electricity again (HID lights) so I am trying to keep them out as late as possible. Unfortunately, the weather doesn't always favor my strategy.

Lots of factors, as always.

Thanks.

T

Yep,since my last post i have learned quite a bit. BIG difference between wet cold and dry cold.I dont have any choice but to keep outdoors in the norcal winter rain. Not even a overhang. DRAINAGE. Without great drainage and air at the roots the plants we talk about here will die. Maybe more important than only worrying about keeping dry.Sometime's they do need some winter moisture,very little,but some.
Since my very small front yard is heavily planted,plus is raised and mounded a few inches with some tree roots further filling the soil(in this situation, it helps),the clay never puddles or becomes overly wet. When i dig into it, It feels aerated.
That's my take as there isnt any warm dry winters for my plants. So far my worst losses have been large potted plants to rot. Make sure after you've mixed a fast soil you choose a pot with more than a single drain hole is also my advice,or lose the advantage.

Here's 2 more cents....

Air flow, whether naturally occurring (wind) or man made (fans) greatly improved plant's tolerances to cold and reduces frost damage

caudex1 -

Trying to parse your 2 cents in relation to my question (if you meant it to relate...), i.e., are you implying that it is okay to expose a Baobabs and Adenium and Euphorbia to mid forties for a night or two? Or under certain circumstances? As long as there is wind flow?

There will be no frost, just two mid to upper forties nights coming up - with upper sixties to mid seventies days. Pull'em in, or leave'em out? They may get a little wet before the drop, too, but they have been actively growing at this time.

Thanks!

T

The wet part is the only worry, if all was dry they could easily take the mid 40's. The Adansonia/Adenium would be the ones to move in if rain is expected, Euphorbs will be no problem. It's good that it's warming up during the day, what's bad is when it does not. The plants will be able to handle the drop below 50 easier when they can warm up the next day.

I leave my Euphorbs out till it gets 30deg(mid-Nov), then I move them to protect from rain. Last year I did an experiment with Adenium, kept bone dry they survived 28deg for a few days and 2wks of the 30s. They've put on some size this season and will leave them out again.

Caudex -

Do you let your Oppies, Commiphora, Portulacaria, and Bursera get chilly, too? I assume all winter growers - Pachycormus, Pelargonium, Ceraria, and Dioscorea - won't mind a little chill, no?

All my plants get quite chilly since I don't use heat, I just protect from rain. I have a couple of Commiphora and Boswelia that have survived this treatment, but have lost a few of the former as well. Bursera fagaroides and odorata, stay out in the rain. microphylla, hindsiana, simplifolia, ariensis are under cover by Novemeber. Portulacria afra? That can take cold and wet to 30deg easy, colder if dry. In 20s there's some branch tip burn and frost will shape it nicely.

Most of my winter growers are left exposed but I do protect a couple of Othonnas from excess moisture, can't recall which one at the moment.

If there are any newbies reading this, note how important the moisture factor is with regards to cold tolerance.

Most cactus and succulents can easily withstand what you'd think are temps that are too cold for them to survive, as long as they remain dry.

When it is a prolonged cold + dry spell, the added risk becomes root dessication. One must learn to balance keeping the fine rootlets alive with minimal moisture.

When roots die, the plants become easily prone to rot when a warm period arrives and you begin to water. Then, when the plant later turns to mush, the death is blamed on it not having survived a cold period. If the rootlets were healthy, there would be no problem.

x

Another question that I always wonder about is whether there is a length of safe cold exposure if the plant is wet but has been growing (i.e., one or two night drops below 50 degrees vs. a week or two of nights with chilly temps) vs. one that is in dormancy? Seems like there should be...

And, do the rules change if the days warm to a certain temperature vs. periods where they stay below a certain temp? Sounds like they might.

As a general rule of thumb during dormancy, "the keep dry (but not dessicated) if it is cold" applies. That is how I get them through every winter and I can control this, since during dormancy I have my plants in my grow room under lights. There, I can completely control how much moisture they do, or do not, get.

My concern here is during the fringe periods like now -
1) When they are winding down from the growing season (perhaps even still showing signs of growth) and the temps start taking these periodic dips (and I am not in complete control of their moisture intake because they are outside).
2) Or, in the spring when they are beginning to grow.

Maybe I am over-analyzing all this just to find a way not to have to do the 'take them in, put them out' shuffle every September.

I'm moving to CA...

T

For tropical species, I believe a plant actively pumping juice is much more tolerant of brief cold + wet in the fall than in the spring. Several nights of cold should not have much if any impact especially if it warms up during the day. Chilly fall evenings do not worry me. 3 chilly days in a row with rain would worry me.

Winter growers are generally much more tolerant of cool wet conditions and some will even thrive.

I know I've said this before, but the best way to figure out what your plants can handle is to experiment with sacrificial specimens. Get some cuttings to root during the summer, and leave them out in the cold and rain and see how they fare.

There is another way to end the shuffle without moving to California or South Africa. Just accept the fact that tropical and subtropical species will not grow as quickly and not gain as much biomass than they would somewhere else. And more importantly, come to the realization that this is not a bad thing - an extended dormancy does not have to negatively impact the health and vitality of the plant.

Just bring them inside when the time is right, and leave them there. If that happens to be next week, then call it a day and let them sleep. How much would you really gain with a few more days of warm sun anyway? Maybe pick a handful of your favorites and shuffle them while leaving the rest inside. Don't drive yourself nutty.

x

x -

Sound advice, as always.

BTW, Lets go Mets!

T

Mets are not going to let up like they did last year, so far so good. Somehow the whole Wagner thing does not bother me.

How about Curt Schilling? Says that Yankees suck (I agree), but then says that all NYers are happy that Brady is out for the year.

What he and others don't realize is that NY fans almost never root for the both teams in the same sport. Met fans hate Yankee fans and vice versa. Same for Jets + Giants.

Maybe Jets fans are happy about Brady going down. Giants fans couldn't care less.

x