My orchard expert said the best spray for a lot of apple trees is out the back of a chipper.They have had about 3000 trees for over 100 years. they replace about 100 per year. his Idea is if you get a scab problem in a few trees it is better to cut and replant with resistant trees then to chance losing a whole block of his orchard to not pick your own quality. 10 years ago I read books and online and tried to prune, and spray an old orchard back. He told me how to do that if I was going that way. (strip the bark prune heavy, good spray )the trees I know now were 80 to 100 years old. counted the stump rings. after 5 years I had a good crop on 50 full size trees. then we had a summer from hell. rain every 2 days and the labeled products said every 7-10. I went to him and asked what to do he again said cut the trees.If you spray to much you will build resistance.I half listened cut alot of the worst ones and planted resistant trees. last year I cut all but one of the remaining trees. my resistant trees had a lot of quality fruit, a 10-15 day spray, only one left is a 20" northern spy that laughs at scab, fire blight ect and every year puts on a pickup load of 4" apples very clean. that tree has fallen over so the are easy to pick. I have 300 semi dwarfs to replace 50 standards and am picking from the 4th july till november. If I had listened to 100 years of learn the hard way I would have a small pick your own now. Wait, maybe if I had listened I would not be as ruthless in hacking at the firs sign of a problem. I did take a northern spy down to his orchard this fall that was 5 1/4 " . he wants a few scions from that tree incase my 10 grafts of 3 years go bad. I am 54 he is 56 his grandfarther is 96 I guess we all think we know better.

Usually skip this subject since I've no experience with sprays besides some traditionals like sulfur & copper used many moons ago on fruit trees. Given my ignorance & the range of opinions, hesitant to even stick a toe in these waters, but (here we go) feel the need to share some thoughts. We all acknowledge we can't grow some roses as perennials in the open garden due to intrinsic climate & site unsuitability, available space & individual practical considerations at any given time. We intentionally eliminate some roses from consideration for not meeting our bloom & growth preferences. Of those we do select, some will self-eliminate despite our care or be rejected down the road for not living up to expectations or no longer appealing as our tastes change. The most critical of my criteria for choosing any rose is its reputation for health & vitality in conditions similar to my own. Gardening more than 50 years in typically humid & fungal prone locations zoomed this to the top of the list long ago. Heavy physical reactions to all the "-cides" except elemental since childhood prohibits their use, as does my philosophical worldview. So I garden the old-fashioned way, pre sophisticated chemical compounds, by necessity. From my point of view, the health potential of any plant is expressed by positive response to its environment - nature vs. nurture - and the availability of the elements & conditions it needs to thrive tilt the odds to favor this expression. We all know moving a shaded rose into more sunlight often "cures" its blackspot outbreak, athough fungal exposure hasn't changed, and that roses sometimes outgrow these outbreaks with maturity. Believe boosting the plant's immune system by helping nature provide those essentials allows it to function optimally on its own, so concentrate my efforts on these aspects. (Same principles as human health. Incidentally, fortify my immune function with the internal products of plants' immune systems - essential oils - borrowing from the plants as it were, the core of traditional botanical medicine.) When we first came to this garden 16 years ago, it had been installed & maintained by a college groundskeeper for 7 years on heavy-duty chemical prevention principles. Extensive shrubbery had been maintained with yearly chunky woodchips atop that of prior applications - 6" worth suffocating the soil without deteriorating though covered in sour-smelling fungus. Couldn't find a worm wherever I dug outside the woods & not a bug, good or bad, in evidence besides mosquitos, flies & chiggers. The few roses were dwindling away under this treatment, bare shadows of their potential. Reversed that trend with organic husbandry & the worms returned. Fed the beneficial microorganisms that fed the worms that till & aerate the soil & the soil web reestablished itself to create an environment in which suitable plants can thrive. For years now, the gardens have welcomed a wide variety of inhabitants that appear to have found an interwoven balance with which I'd be loath to meddle. Beneficials & birds keep the ruffians in check most seasons with an assist from the hose. One year the garden club girls (one fellow joined as I was leaving) spent an entire initial meeting exclaiming about decimation the Japanese beetles wrought over the Summer. Apparently no one believed my surprise & report that only a few spotted here that season not far from their gardens, or they might have wondered what could be different here... Many roses brought in over the years, some with blackspot or mildew from travel stress, so likely a mix of farflung varieties present. Most got over it, as have those which arrived this humid rainy season, including a spotted Buff Beauty bought locally. Fungals show up here & there in small bouts with minor fleeting consequence (knock on wood). Still not brave enough to intentionally choose roses not known for their good health, some of those with mixed reviews doing well. Those among the dear departed were dispatched by deer, storms, cold, neglect & seeming suicide. Shovel pruned 2 for RRD. In my book, really not a bad record for all the years & varieties attempted. Saved a lot of bucks & effort counted up over time, alternately spent on new plants & garden stuff. But then, an admittedly lazy gardener relying on simple methods to support health, the weather gods (as do we all) & beneficial energies... Longwinded way of saying it can be done - growing roses naturally in the humid fungus-ridden Southeast - by way of encouragement to those considering a change of method & solidarity with those already doing it, too. This post was edited by vasue on Sun, Jun 22, 14 at 21:37

Thank you Dax. This was about my third year in trying to propagate this J. virginiana. The first year I tried strong rooting hormone on cuttings, that failed. Second year I tried grafting with a knife (not razor sharp, just sharp) and doing the bag method except I did not let them breath, those all failed (quick), Spider mite infestation on the root stalks, and the knife not being razor sharp was likely the main causes for a quick death. Third year (this year) The scions seemed green for a long time in the humidity chamber after grafting, but I think that was just because the humidity preserved the chlorophyll even though the scions where getting little to no water uptake from the root stalk (guessing). The only ones to eventually grow a tiny bit and did not turn brown for the longest time, were the ones I had half in a jar of water (approach grafts), and they actually grew, but after I took the "graft" out of the humidity and removed the jar the tender new growth quickly shrived up and the last couple of scions I had died. I don't know if this guess is true or not, But I've been guessing (and hoping) the the only reason they failed is because I got the scions off the parent tree as the tree was coming out of dormancy in February (pollen cones on the tree where large and swollen, and just about to burst open). A very warm winter did not help either (breaking dormancy even earlier than typical.) So perhaps the scions did not have time to heal before the water started to transpire out of the foliage of the scions and juices flowing in the scions, thus a very poor graft union that was very susceptible to even tiny stresses in the aftercare (in other words: little to no water and nutrient uptake for the scions). Does this sound likely or not, (I don't mind if you disagree with what I said above, I want to learn as much as possible, so you can tell how you think about it). This time I want to get the scions in the dead of winter (in January). Do you think bagging the grafts could be better than the humidity chamber? Bagging them would be more work and I worry about spider mites, but I don't mind to do what ever it takes to get a successful cone of it, I'll do it. I would even spend hundreds or maybe even thousands of dollars to graft/clone it successfully. lol You probably know how it is for me, ones favorite plant/tree of a plant enthusiast is kind of like a very close family pet.

Thanks guys. I think I probably am a little relaxed with chemicals sometimes but try to use good judgement, wash up afterwards, etc. The tub and understock would be treated before bringing them inside and putting them on the bottom heat. Probably another spray after the grafts are done and every couple weeks until they're out of the chamber. The "SuperStock" seedlings from UI (Idaho) are nice. I have them potted in anderson band pots, ready to be brought inside, placed in a clear rubbermaid type tub with bottom heat and once they start to wake up, I'll graft. Rubberbands, parafilm tape and a bunch of razor blades at the ready. Hopefully I'll cut my scions the same day, we'll see what the weather is like. I plan to tent with clear poly, have a temperature/humidity gauge inside and I'll be misting as needed to maintain humidity. This is really just something extra for me to do during the winter, using clippings from plants already in the landscape. Conifer catalogs and ordering is fun, but this could be great for extending the season. I think if I have any kind of success, I'll have to do multiple "tubs" next year. Dave