Joy, I repot plants according to size. I'd never put a 10" citrus in a 17" pot for instance. Just like most other plants. If I have a small citrus, they go in small pots..as they grow larger and roots start to fill up pots, I work my way up to a larger size. Toni

That's what I thought and what I have been doing. The citrus that he had were growing in conditions beyond everything I have read or heard and they looked so green and lush. They were sitting in water and were so wet moss grew on the soil surface, pots were huge, they were in the shade of evergreen magnolias, palm and banana trees, back sheds, etc. - and still outside - very unusual growing conditions. He had meyers, bearrs, key lime, kumquat, washington navel, calamondin, mandarin or tangerine (his labelling was sporadic I'm guessing on that one) I was so excited to see all of them (so unusual in Canada to see so many varieties) and so disappointed as I was 600 miles away from home and in a compact car!

Joy, when you go to a nursery, ALWAYS drive in a bigger car..LOL..
Were you the only one in the car? When I worked for a company we h ad to set big plants in cars..If nobody's in the passenger seat, there's ways to set plants inside, even tall plants, as long as the seat can go back. And this can be done w/o breaking branches if done right.
Just lower the seat..Carefully set the top of the plant in an angle, slowely turning to straighten it out. It fits right in..You can get 2-3 plants in a front seat, believe me.
What's the temp where he's located? Citrus can do great outside as long as it doesn't drop below 38F degrees. The problem is bringing them in a hot, dry home..That's when problems arise. But gradually plants establish getting used to our houses conditions.
It's amazing he had them sitting in water though..that's something different..Toni

I had my husband and two young sons in the car - I thought I did well to get him to stop at the greenhouse. I can tell when a greenhouse or garage sale is coming up - he accelerates ever so slightly and draws my attention to the other side of the road - but I'm on to his tricks! I thought I might be able to drive back with a key lime at my feet but the pot was too large so it didn't come home with me. Next time we take the truck.

joyd,

The guy at the nursery just proved that rules are made to be broken. One possibility might be that his parent trees are older than they appear and have extensive root systems that can suck up all that water and so avoid root rot. Also, did you notice what kind of soil mixture he was using? If really fast draining, might also help explain things.

I more or less follow the conventional suggestions for pot size: 8 - 12 for one year trees, 10 - 14 for two year trees, move up in size in small increments, but I think it really depends on the individual trees, since some grow faster than others. I prefer my trees to get a little pot bound, as I think it helps prevent root rot, especially since I use regular potting soil with some perlite thrown in to help with drainage and aeration. Have to water more frequently in the summer, but that's a fair tradeoff to me. From what I've read it also helps to keep the trees smaller, which is fine by me, since I move them in and out with the seasons (they are all in for the winter now, bummer).

When I can pull on the trunk of a tree and most of the soil comes up with the root ball, that's my signal to repot.

narcnh

The trees in the very largest pots were definitely older judging by the trunk size. It was hard to tell the soil mix he used although it was quite compacted and was covered with moss. I couldn't poke my finger into the soil, it felt quite "meshy", might have been roots. In several cases the soil had washed away from the trunk and the large roots that grew from the trunk were about 2 - 3" above the soil. The new cuttings (3 or 4 leaves about 4" high) were also in quite large pots, 14" across +/-, and seemed to be in regular potting soil as well. I tried to find out what fertilizer he used but again language was a problem.

Joy, husbands are so sneaky, lol, but you fooled him. Well, w/4 ppl in a compact car, it was impossible bringing a tree home, but now that you know of this nursery, next time you can drive the truck like you said..LOL.
Is it a large nursery?

Narknh, I too allow my citrus to get a bit potbound. That's one way for those who are 'waterholics' overwatering..(S) Some of my tree are root bound to the point I have to water a couple times a wk, plus, because of the soil I mix, the soil drys out quickly. Toni

Toni, its a small nursery, an independent not a chain, just full to the rafters with the most unusual plants - most of which I didn't know the names for. We found him quite by accident, or by my misreading the map, (those darn maps never tell you in advance when you are in a left turn only lane!)

Joy, lol..your mistake, or the maps, led you to a nice place though..LOL..
Sometimes, or as far as I'm concerned, many times we find nicer and rarer plants in independent nurseries than chain stores. We've a few places out here like what you're talking about..the only problem is, some of their plants are priced high..They even sell citrus, but they're quite high in price..STILL..lol..The last time we went there, which was Feb 2006, I bought a Calamondi for 20 something dollars..it was only in a 1 gallon pot, but now in a 3 gallon. I remember going there about 5 yrs ago, and seeing the same plant in larger pots for 17.00. One day I'll go back, but it's up north of Chicago and I'm southwest.
When do think you'll get back up that way? Toni

"Potting-up", as per instructions above will eventually cause you problems, and you may not even realize the actual cause. Here is a partial reply to a question by 'rickjames' from the Container Gardening Forum. Most of the info applies here:

You will rarely see containerized trees grow old and maintain good vitality w/o attention to root-pruning. There are several reasons to learn root-pruning & I'll expand later if there proves to be interest or questions.
Almost all deciduous woody material tolerates root-pruning well. Most evergreens tolerate it well, but not all, especially if you are lucky enough to have 20 yr old or older plants. Some require some innovation to maintain a desirable level of vitality. More later.

In in situ situations, large roots serve only (ok, primarily) to anchor the tree. In containers, we can depend on finer rootage to accomplish this. Fat roots serve no purpose in container culture - other than to take up valuable space that might better be utilized by finer and more efficient rootage. So - cut the fat ones!

Deciduous trees can usually be bare-rooted before bud movement in spring with little worry. For nursery material, I start by sawing off the bottom 1/3 of the roots. With a Foggit nozzle (fixed brass fine spray attachment for hose) and a chopstick, I remove all the soil. For evergreens, I often divide the rootball into 4 imaginary pie-shaped wedges or quarters (as seen from above). I still saw the bottom 1/3 off, but I only remove the soil from the roots occupying 2 of the 4 wedges. This accomplished, I remove about 2/3 of the heaviest roots in the 2 wedge areas (this leaves all the roots in the other 2 wedges). Since deciduous trees are usually bare-rooted, I simply remove approx an additional 1/3 to 1/2 of the roots remaining after the saw work and soil removal.

Roots that are growing straight up or down are removed first, as are those growing back toward the center. I concentrate on removing roots immediately under the trunk as well. Roots are trimmed around the circumference to eliminate encircling. When finished, your goal is a disk shaped root mass with roots radiating outward from the trunk.

Work in shade and out of wind/sun. Keep roots wet while working. Hair roots can be killed quickly by drying out.

To repot: Place damp soil in container like a volcano, & place plant on top. Twist lightly to seat soil under trunk. Add soil on top of roots and work into roots with a chopstick. Occasionally tap side of container with hand to settle soil. When all air pockets are filled, water well and secure plant in container. This is important. Plants that are braced against movement reestablish in a fraction of the time of those that can move about. Place plant in bright shade until new growth is evident and them move to appropriate site.

Sounds complicated, but it is very easy and very plant-beneficial. By summers end, you should expect development of root-pruned plants to surpass that of counterparts in which root-pruning was not undertaken.

Intervals vary. Young trees can go up to 3 years in some cases before they show effects of being pot-bound or soil collapse. I'm pretty particular, so I keep a close eye on intervals and use a very stable soil for woody material. I can tell by looking at most trees, the actual year they were repotted or potted-up. Branch extension decreases as root vitality diminishes. This causes leaf bundle scars to become compressed or closer together. In years that you pot-up or repot, they really stretch out again before shortening in subsequent years. Just count terminal bud scars backward to determine repot years. Neat - huh? ;o)"

Al

Here is a link that might be useful: Find the rest of the discussion here

That's a bundle to digest Al.
And I saved it for future use.
Thanks.
Benny

wow Toni, citrus plants under $80.00 - dare to dream. His small plants were $89.00 and the large were $279.00 (yes, two hundred and seventy nine dollars) For that reason Al, I am very nervous to start cutting away at the roots - I need something less expensive to practice on.

Joy, I am curious. You said you had a language problem with the guy at the nursery. Now I am going to make a stereotypical comment here, but were they of Asian Origin? I ask because all the people I know who go against the grain when growing anything let alone citrus and still have not just good but spectacular results have always been Asian. They seem to all have magical effects on plants in general.

My grapefruit seedling was given to me by a coworker (Chinese), and the soil it was planted in was all wrong, very compact, little drainage etc...But it's doing super well. He has a 2 year old grapefruit seedling that has flowered once for him in it's first year and that's it. It's 6 ft tall right now, and I can only assume his soil composition is similar if not the same as the one he gave me.

Against all odds, I tell you. This tree shouldn't be this big, never mind that we are in frigid Quebec! Sorry if my stereotype offends anyone, but I really believe alot of stereotypes are bang on.

Ciao

Yes he is Asian. Very nice guy with a great nursery - wish he were my neighbor!

Knew it!! Around here, every 7/11 owned by Asians always have a huge array of tropical plants to sell. Always in beautiful condition! I got my meyer and calamondin from Quan Kim, our Vietniamese convenience store guy. Love him!!

I wonder what their method is? I recently read that if you use diluted hydrogen peroxide when watering that will help plants to thrive. Again, I'm reluctant to try just in case its not true and I end up killing my oh so few citrus!

Narcnh is probably right, in that the roots of this nurseryman's plants are likely fully colonizing the containers. There are plenty of people growing things that are in less-than-ideal circumstances and have results, though those results may also be less than ideal ("in spite of, as opposed to because of"--isn't that your line, Al? Or was that AlphaDogPimp?). Assuming this guy is growing citrus this well in poor soil with inadequate light or whatever the situation may be, imagine what his plants would do if the conditions were even better.

joyd, you can use a dilute H2O2 solution to water plants--the point is extra O2 delivery to the roots. I've used 1 oz. of 3% H2O2 in 1 liter of water and I haven't killed any citrus with it yet.

ecomtl, what other stereotypes do you think are "bang-on"?

"in spite of, as opposed to because of" Yes RJ, you can attribute that line to me. I believe I've used it when certain posters have issued advice I know is contrary to good growing practices, charging that it's more likely that it "works for you in spite of what you're doing, not because of...". I'm surprised you remembered, or even noticed the comment.

BTW - Who is AlphaDogPimp? I can't imagine that iVillage would allow a poster like that around here, and I could find nothing of ADP in a search. I'll ck with Fozzybeth & see if she knows (him?).

I regularly use H2O2 on plants that present me with soil collapse root issues (usually due to my own laziness in not repotting something on schedule). If there is any interest, I can post something about it's use from a saved document (it comes up here often).

... and FWIW, I'm just an average white guy & also noticed the stereotypical bent above, even though I'd likely be the LAST person you'd find reason to levy a PC charge against. ;o)

Al

Al, I'd be interested in reading info on H2O2 as a watering supplement.

"Who is AlphaDogPimp?" Yo' mama, that's who.

Just kiddin', Al. Please post your H2O2 info--I don't believe I have seen it.

Yo' mama huh? Yo mama so fat her a$$ shadow weighs 50 pounds! ;o)

I use H2O2 solutions as a temporary aid to soil oxygenation when I have been lazy in my repotting of plants & find myself dealing with soil collapse and/or (accompanying) root-rot issues.

H2O2 has an extra O atom (compared to H2O) in an unstable arrangement. It's the extra atom that makes it useful in horticultural applications. Generally, we're not concerned with aerobic (O2-loving) forms of bacteria normally occurring in container media or on roots.

Since H2O2 is an unstable molecule, it breaks down easily. When it does, a single O- atom and a molecule of water is released. This O- atom is extremely reactive and will quickly attach itself to either another O- atom forming stable O2, or attack the nearest organic molecule.

Many disease causing organisms and spores are killed by O, the free O H2O2 releases is extremely effective at this. H2O2 can help eliminate existing infections and help prevent future ones. The free O atom can also destroy organisms in dead organic material (i.e, leaves roots) that are rotting and spreading diseases.

Reduced O levels and high temperatures encourage both anaerobic bacteria and fungi. When plants growing in soil are treated with H2O2 it will break down and release O into the area around the roots. This helps stop the O from being depleted in the water filled air soil air spaces until air can get back into them. High O levels at the roots will help encourage rapid healthy root growth and discourage unwanted bacteria/fungi.

H2O2 comes in several different strengths. 3% (drugstore), 5%, 8% and 35% solutions. Cheapest is 35% which you dilute (to 3%) by mixing 1:11 with water. This is what I use, 35% food grade mixed to a 6% solution. It has no stabilizers & should be kept in the freezer (where, btw, it remains liquid even at 0* F.). Plastic or glass is best to store it in, & the container should be opaque to prevent light degradation. If three-liter colored soda bottles are available in your area they are ideal for mixing and storing H2O2 (in fridge). Once you have it mixed at 3% (or start with 3%) mix it at the rate of 4 oz./gallon of water as a cutting dip & up to 8 oz./gallon to water containers with on a regular basis. Start at the lower concentration and increase concentrations gradually over a few weeks. I add 1 oz. of 6% solution to a L of tap water, which is, of course, the same as 2 oz. of 3% solution.

H2O2 in high concentration is a powerful oxidant and will bleach skin white as it quickly oxidizes almost anything it contacts, so be careful with it if you use it. Gloves and eye protection are required by all but the foolish as a solution that's too strong can destroy any organic molecule it contacts. Once mixed to 3% or when using 3% over-the-counter solutions, it is pretty safe, however.

Al

This is a very interesting concept that I would like to experiment with. I have an calamondin tree that is not growing very well that I can use as a test subject. This isn't really going to be that scientific as its going to be the only one that will get the H2O2 solution.

Is it possible to purchase the 35% without a license? and is the type used for bleaching hair safe for use with the plants?
Andi

No license required to purchase and I can't comment on the product used for hair applications - maybe rickjames could comment on that - cuz rick's moma so hairy Jane Goodall come to visit for a week. Oh I kill me! lolol

There are lotsa sites that sell it on the net. The one linked to has it for $16 + S&H.

Al

Here is a link that might be useful: Look here for H2O2

Al, yo' mama is so old, the key on Ben Franklin's kite was to her apartment.

(Where's Fez when you need him?)

I have had no problems with using the H2O2 in the relatively short time that I have been using it, but it's interesting that it doesn't seem to interfere with the fine feeder roots which I think of as relatively delicate--H2O2, at 3%, is actually quite toxic to cells in wounds and is not recommended to be applied to deep skin lacerations. It must be the dilute concentration.

RickJames, I don't think i'd particularily want to make a list if that's what your asking.

But here's a sample : All Canadians say "eh"

Yeah, we pretty much do.