Hello Bob,

Out of curiosity, what would the code say for the name of Pinus Strobus Verkades Witchbroom. As you know this pine along with Strobus Spingarns Witchbroom was found and name long before any codes came along. I know that they were probably not registered as were not many of the Verkade plants to my knowledge were registered, if any.

I understand the need to have some kind of uniformity and think this is a step in the right direction but as seen above how will the codes treat the two plants and so many others?

Dave

Hi Dave,

The code is kind of a voluntary thing. Nobody is going to take any action against anyone who doesn't follow the code. However, a number of bad things could happen:

1. Someone else could put a legitimate name on the discoverer's plant.
2. It reflects badly upon the taxonomic knowledge of the person who put the illegitimate name on the plant.
3. Anyone doing a book on conifer cultivars could not publish the illegitimate name without an addendum or it would reflect negatively upon his knowledge and put the taxonomy throughout the book into question.
4. It doesn't really say much about the plant itself and if a nurseryman used a name like that, it would not help to sell the plant.
5. The world of cultivated conifers would become so confused that cultivar names would risk becomingmeaningless. I could just see 'Nana' coming back into use!

Now having said all that, I would use those names in my own catalog if I sold those plants because they have a historic connotation. I also believe the following applies to these plants: the code does not specifically reject Witchbroom as part of a name, only implies that is is illegitimate (Abies nordmanniana 'Witchbroom' 1972 Henry Hohman is an established name and need not be named.) It does reject 'Witches' Broom' and any translation of it ('Hexenbesen')as a name. Besides, the code does not seem to want to go back and change historically accepted names.

Humphrey Welch used to change names to conform with the code when he wrote his books (sort of a hit and miss thing) and he made some enemies doing it. One that comes to mind is Picea glauca 'Skippack Broom', which he changed to 'Cecilia'. He alienated Layne Ziegenfuss on that one.

In my catalog I make every effort to stay with the discoverer's name. If I ever write a book, however, I would have to work to make illegitimate names into legitimate ones.

That would lead to additional confusion in the name world but there are ways to overcome that problem. Two that come to mind are the conifer societies and the internet.

Pinus strobus 'Verkade Witchbroom' is really a nice plant and I used to offer it under that name. If it had a descriptive name I would probably still be offering it because the sales would have been better. I don't know Joel's plant.

I am not an expert on the taxonomic code and just go by what I read in my reference books. Hopefully I gave you a good answer.

Also, before 1953 there was no code and everybody did their own thing and in 1958 some of the modern limitations on naming went into effect. Without guidance on naming for the "old timers", anything could and did happen.

Bob

Hello Bob,

I actually have nothing to say because there are too many issues that revolve around this double sided sword. I know that a first name among buddies as well as further should not be changed. That's not to say that a temporary name may have been issued such as the millions it seems of Jerry Morris brooms with names like "AK 19" "JM 99", names I just made up but you get the idea. I won't put myself out on a limb but those names seemed, 'temporary' to me, however he may never register them at either the ACS Database or The Code (register).

Obviously many older names must not be changed and I say again 'even within circles' because that's what the name is! Later if the name is changed then like in your previous posts where the namer was notified and he/she approved of the change, then that is fine.

There's a lot of common sense here but then again that's how I'm tuned to see things. So I agree with you on the "expediency" issues of naming.

On a completely seperate issue, I am under the impression that the earth was meant to be beautified and that gardening is healthy, also rewarding and that, putting trademarks for monetary purposes is shameful. The originator, people in the "plant" business are very happy-go-lucky loving life people and that goes against the grain in every respect, reflecting personal experiences. That's my opinion though.

I'd share my whole life with anyone. More than most of you will ever have a chance to experience being that we are scattered all across the world. It's just not the same as knowing someone personally, however, I've developed relations with each one of you and have a flowing pencil relationship in my own mind of who each of you are and your likes and dislikes.

Regards,

Dax

P.s. Just as I said priorly, note-taking in very important and share your notes. I've thought that all along. They say when a person dies, a library of information goes along with them too... so please write it all down. Put it all on discs or if already on paper, file it away so it's easy to understand. And make sure if you don't get that book written, that all that wealth of information gets handed to the write person/people. Those would be my thoughts...

First of all, as an attorney, no one should have to pay to view the code. A code is a published thing, it's a set of rules everyone should follow, you shouldn't have to pay a certain amount of euros to look at the full text of the the code, which I cannot find online.

I think its hysterical everyone practices pseudo legal conventions when referring to this elusive text. i.e refering to it as "The Code", in caps as if it's a statute. Show me the text and I'll tell you what it says.

problem solved.

Bob

I understand where this whole thing is coming from and it seems to add some kind of order to the naming of plants.

Although there werenÂt too many plants that were name Verkades Witchbroom in different genre, I also would be reluctant to change a tried and true name. By the way, I think that the Spingarns pine was much nicer than the Verkade pine. Joel's pine has a very nice blue color to it and it grows faster than the one my father found. There is a Spingarns Witchbroom on my father's old property and if I get there sometime I will take a picture of it and email it to you if you like.

I found two witchbrooms of Pinus Mugo Gnome. One I name after my daughter-in-law. I did call it Pinus Mugo Suzanne Verkade W/B, but after this discussion I will drop the W/B.

I also have one that I named Pinus Mugo Hillsborough 08844.
Does the code have anything to say about numbers? I thought that the zip code would help to identify the town that it came from.

My brother has found a Picea Orientalis Witchbroom, which he named Picea Orientalis Verkades Dwarf Midget W/B (real slow grower). I guess I will have a talk with him and see how he wants to proceed with this name.

Dave

as i suspected.. "The Royal Horticultural Society is the registration authority for nine groups of plants including all conifers and their cultivars, a role it has held since 1962.." .. link below ....

one would think a verb is a verb will find what he is looking for there.... but as i am also an atty ... i am not sure that will help in reading a horticultural nomenclature documents .. lol .... i do look forward to seeing/reading what he/she can come up with ... contact info is at the bottom of the link

ken

Here is a link that might be useful: link

Here's a page from the RHS with a contact email address for the person who is in charge and some other links which I have not read:

Dax

Here is a link that might be useful: RHS Registration of Conifers

So Bob, let me get this straight, Humphrey Welch feels 'Skippack Broom' is incorrect and instead of making it just 'Skippack', 'Skippy', 'Skip to my Loo' or 'Go Pack Go' for that matter, he makes it 'Cecelia'? What would give an author that authority-so to speak. ('Cecelia' is a lovely plant BTW, one of my favs.) My own thoughts are that with interest in brooming booming and the hunt for various other cultivars, there is such an influx of new names that naming conventions may be overwelmmed. And, indeed, that may be why "The Code" may be invoked more now so as to try and keep a handle on things.

Ken- Not 'a verb is a verb', it's 'A Verb is Adverb Era'. That may become the next naming convention era. Take any verb in a name and make it an adverb ;-).

tj

Hi Dave,

The problem with putting a number like that in a plant name is the difficulty remembering it plus it is probably illegitimate. The location of the source could be taken care of in the description and the number could be replaced with a catchy, descriptive name to follow the name of the town.

When I name a plant, I always feel the plant has good merit or I wouldn't name it. So I want people to try it in their gardens. The way to encourage that is to put a good name on the plant that attracts interest. I try to use two good descriptive words. (Picea abies 'Gold Drift' and Picea mariana 'Blue Teardrop' and Pinus mugo 'Little Delight' to mention just a few that I have named.) The commercial end of it is secondary to me since my first profession is education. But a good find is a rare thing and some financial reward is not to be ignored. A good name helps that too.

Some day I'd be interested in seeing Joel's plant. Next time I get back to the east coast I'll have to pay you a visit. This year I'll be playing in the midwest for a few days after the ACS convention so no east coast visit.

Hi Tsuga,

Humphrey used to make value judgements when he was the international conifer registrar and he would refuse to register a conifer that did not sound distinctive by its description. He was talked into giving up that position because that was not part of the "job description". That way of doing things carried over into his writing and made him some enemies.

He considered Skippack a strange name and felt that the term "broom" made it illegitimate. So when he was visiting with Joel Spingarn and getting Joel to name his Chamaecyparis obtusa seedlings, he renamed Layne's plant for Joel's wife, Cecilia. It is an exceptional plant if you don't get the Iseli form and the name is a nice one, but unfortunately the method of renaming is questionable.

Humphrey wouldn't even consider putting Pseudotsuga mens. 'Graceful Grace' into his book because he felt that was a silly name.

Humphrey was a friend of mine and I could talk him out of some of the changes if I knew about them in advance. For example, he felt that enough plants had the Horsford nme on them so that Tsuga canadensis 'Horsford Contorted' should go by the name 'Pigtail', a descriptive name that Bergman put onto the plant. I explained to him that he should leve Horsford's name alone, especially since Fred had a habit of renaming other people's plants.

Bob

A tiny bit off topic, or maybe not? But... tsugajunkie, at the risk of being presumptious in speaking for averbisadverbera, I believe it's "A Verbis Ad Verbera." Latin for "From words to blows." Ironically appropriate as an offshoot to this discussion, no? 8-)

Bob,

Thank you for that insight (as opposed to incite;-)). I find it interesting to get some of these back room details of the conifer world. If by the Iseli form of Cecelia you mean the faster growing, no, mine is not. Mine came from Girard's 6-8 years ago and grows 1-2 inches (silvervista,

Yes, I know of averbisadverbera's meaning. In fact, when it was first translated it I commented it was a good name for a web forum. Just having a bit of fun.

tj

Dave,
Just for information.
You may already know, or not, that in all the european collections the plant is known as Pinus strobus 'Verkade's Broom'.

Thanks bluespruce for the information. Good to know what is happening on the other side of the pond.

Dave