I wonder if it could be from some of the T. mucronatum reportedly thriving in the Albuquerque area.

Could be Taxodium distichum x Taxodium mucronatum

I'd go with the idea that they are early Spanish colonial imports from Mexico. I guess Native American planting can't be ruled out, either.

Resin

Nor can you rule out recent planting, like in the 19th or 20th century. I knew an old hydrologist who brought his wife with him on field trips in Utah and Wyoming national forests. She habitually amused herself by bringing all manner of seeds along, and planting them on streambanks. I've often wondered if she cause any botanists to publish vicarious sightings. I once wasted a day scouting for possible old seed trees that might have mothered some lodgpole pines I found in a desaert mountain range; then found out Boy Scouts had planted them 40 yrs previously.
The urge to kill.

Is montezuma cypress hardy in NM? I've seen it listed as zone 9 and zone 8.

That's funny Pinetree. I once caught Bluegill and Croppy and released them in a nearby stream as a child and later that summer, I walked the entire creek to find out only that the people downstream were thrilled with the new additions.

That was 25 years ago at least. Maybe afterall the doings of human are the culprit!

Tcharles, Sunset Western Garden Book lists Taxodium mucronatum hardy in Sunset Zones: 5,6,8-10,12-14. For areas of New Mexico, they state: The Faces of Zone 10 "In the milder southwest corner of New Mexico, winter temperatures bottom out at 10 to 15 F, while rainfall averages increases to 16 inches and winter temperatures can drop by 10 degrees or so. In northeastern areas, rainfall remains a constant, but winter minimums drop a few more degrees, shortening the growing season."

Just looking at the included map, Albuquerque is Sunset zone 10, but only has less than 20 miles to each way east and west at which point zone it becomes a zone 2 in their point system. To the north a good 25 miles and to the south it stays a zone 10. With respects to this discussion...

Dax

Hey Dax:

I was talking about USDA zones, just because I was only wondering about cold hardiness, not it's general suitability. Bt it looks like just that one part of NM is a cool part of z8, no zone 9.

And that's sorta what I thought (that it was hardier than 9) becuase I saw a pretty 2 large montezuma cypress in a tree boxes at a local nursery not long ago, and containerized plants are less cold hardy than in situ. And Im 8b.

Just to repeat my post from the other thread . . .

Given that some trees of T. distichum from Florida are hardy to zone 4 (posted on this forum several times!), it's not too implausible that the northernmost native T. mucronatum in Mexico should also be rather hardier than expected when planted by the Spaniards in NM.

I suspect that the genus' water-borne seed dispersal, combined with the lack of northward-flowing rivers in North America, has been an important factor in preventing the genus from colonising northward after the colder periods of the ice ages. It must be an awfully difficult task floating up either the Mississippi or the Rio Grande against the current!

Resin

Here is a weeping T. mucronatum I planted 2 years ago. It saw a 4°F morning its first winter. This past winter, it didn't even change color until Dec. 15, after several freezes. It was the first to bud out last spring and this. Last spring we had a very late freeze. The needles turned "fall rust" then when it warmed back up, they went green again and never dropped!! This individual is from some native Texas trees from around San Marcos.

This one is at 33.08785 north, 97.28609 west bordering USDA 7B/8A

{{gwi:671043}}

There is a mature T. muc. in Plano, TX at the Frito Lay headquarters. It is amongst some bald cypress - probably hitched a ride unbeknownst to the landscaper.

J.D.

arauquoia,

There is no published source for my reports of T. mucronatum in NM. A very knowledgeable plant person who thinks they were the first to identify them is the one who told me about them. They are in the remote parts of Gila National Forest and I believe some others were in part of the Cibola National Forest(at least one group is near some old Spanish era ruins). This person is worried that revealing their exact location could cause something bad to happen to them(too many people wanting to visit them causing inadvertent harm, harmful collection of cuttings or seed, etc. I believe someone has even threatened to cut them down to use the wood and this plant person thinks this threat isn't an idle one). I will say that seed has been collected and sent to a university for propagation and study. And at least one university botanist has seen photos and samples of the original trees and think they are true T. mucronatum as well. I've also been told that the largest trees are in an area which regularly sees below zero(F) every winter and has historically seen temps in the -20°F to -25°F range.

Also, I've heard that Taxodium growing in the Rio Grande drainage area are all, T. distichum(even on the Mexican side). At least this is what I believe I was told by some botanists at Texas A&M and Stephen F. Austin State last year. I think I recall they said they were of the original opinion that they were T. mucronatum or hybrids with T. mucronatum, but on further review now consider them T. distichum. Also, the Flora of North America doesn't recognize any T. mucronatum(which they label Taxodium distichum var. mexicanum) growing anywhere in the USA and has T. distichum in East Texas growing into the Southern part of East-Central Texas(including San Marcos) and in extreme South Texas (roughly South of a line from Laredo to Corpus Christi). So, I guess I'm asking who has ID'd T. mucronatum growing natively in Texas, especially from around San Marcos in South-Central Texas? I've heard differing opinions on the ID of the trees growing in extreme South Texas, but I've never heard anyone saying the ones growing in East Texas and into the Southern part of East-Central Texas were anything other than T. distichum. I guess this leads me to a couple other questions. What are the best determining factors separating T. distichum from T. mucronatum, besides range and degree of evergreeness? And what are the opinions of anyone on this forum about whether the Taxodium in the Southern Rio Grande drainage area are T. distichum or T. mucronatum or possibly hybrids of the 2?

I guess I have one other question about T. mucronatum. I know it grows along rivers in NW Mexico right up to the coast, as far North as Rio yaqui(maybe even Rio Sonora). Since some of these rivers have their origins in Arizona, I was wondering how far North does T. mucronatum occur in this area and has anyone looked for it in any of the head waters of these rivers in Southern Arizona?

kman,
You might want to contact Dan Hosage (Madrone Nursery). He was the source of the T. mucronatum pictured above.

Here is a link that might be useful: Madrone Nursery

Hi justintx,

It says on his website that he discovered that weeping T. mucronatum in Hildago, TX(extreme South Texas on the Rio Grande). So, it's one of those trees that many people think is T. mucronatum, while others have said they are intermediate between T. distichum and T. mucronatum(hybrids), and like I said, some now think are just extreme variants of T. distichum. So, who knows what they really are(unless someone has solid evidence one way or the other I haven't heard about). I wonder if any of the conifer experts on this forum have an opinion about them? What aout you justintx? Does yours look a lot different than typical T. distichum to you?

The main thing I notice is the way it stays green FAR past all the T. distichum up here. It didn't even turn colors until December 15, 2006 ±. There were SEVERAL freezes before then. Then the way it recovered from the late freeze in 2006 was interesting. It has red bark between the "fissures". Besides, that, I just took the guy (Dan Hosage) at his word. (I'm bad about that) Is there a difference in leaf arrangement? Maybe I should get a close up.

The likelihood that a solitary tree represents an unknown species of conspicuous conifer growing in a desert arroyo is close to nil. The likelihood of there being a Taxodium survivor of postulated Spanish introductions from Mexico (which means at least 300 or so years ago) is also close to nil. I think a lot of highly improbable scenarios can be created in fits of overzealousness, though this usually happens most during very hot summer weather. I'm not saying anyone is crazy -- that would be libelous, no?

All good points pinetree30, but the guy who thinks he discovered these Taxodium is a very reliable source(I don't know anything about arauquoia's source, or if they are one in the same as mine or if they are even talking about the same populations of Taxodium as my source). He's found many relict populations of Oaks(Quercus sps.) and other trees that are not officially recognized as growing in New Mexico. There are also many planted trees still growing next to old Spanish era settlements(long abandoned). Who knows when they were planted for sure and probably most were planted later during Mexican rule, rather than back in actual Spanish rule. But nevertheless they were planted pre American-Mexican War.

Also, the location(especially the one deep in the Gila National Forest) of these Taxodium strongly suggests a very old planting or indeed a relict population since this area hasn't been inhabited for at least 150 years or more according to local history(even then only native Americans apparently ever had temporary settlements in this particular area). The description of the area where these particular Taxodium are growing, sounds very much like where T. mucronatum in Northern Mexico grow. I don't think the chances of relict populations existing in New Mexico are as slim as you think. There so many extremely diverse ecological niches in New Mexico(more than I've seen in other parts of the US), even in areas very close to each other that I think the chances are quite good actually. But until these particular trees are studied more, who knows for sure how they ended up growing where they are now. I will say, I haven't seen any evidence of these Taxodium being a new species, but then again I've only seen saplings and seedlings grown from the original trees.

justintx,
It sounds like Dan Hosage knows his stuff, and I've heard several differing opinions to if those trees are T. mucronatum, or just a unique variety of T. distichum or even hybrids, so I wouldn't say he's wrong with his assessment. At the least they are different than any other wild Taxodium growing in the USA that I know of.

Is it possible that the tree could be a new species/subspecies? Sure; look at the tree that was found growing in Australia about 10 years ago, and growing not too far from a major city (the Wollemi Pine. Wollemia nobilis.)
Mike

That opens up the thorny old problem of species definitions in Taxodium . . .

Some, like the Flora of North America, argue that there is only one species in the genus anyway. Others say two, yet others say three.

High time someone did a range-wide DNA study of the whole genus!

Resin

Here is a link that might be useful: Flora of North America: Taxodium

I think the Taxodiums in New Mexico are T mucronatum
most authors list the following species

Taxodium ascendens
Taxodium distichum
Taxodium mucronatum

However there could be two species and one variety

A major difference between this putative Taxodium outlier and Wollemia (I give myself permission to write that) is that the Wollemia consists of a breeding and reproducing population, which by definition means it is an adapted species growing in its natural habitat. The solitary tree is not breeding, maybe because it can't tolerate self-fertilization. Presumably, the last of its line could be finally succumbing to a changing climate. This would be much more probable with a planted specimen or an escape of a known species than with a new species that we just happen to catch in its last gasp. Sure, it is possible --- just very unlikely.

arauquoia,

the tree is located closed to Old Mesila, if you are familiar with the city.. It is very close to I-10, just across NMSU campus. It is in the same garder with the two bigges P. pinea I've ever seen, I believe 1m dia.

osprey

"It is in the same garden with the two biggest P. pinea I've ever seen, I believe 1m dia"

Does rather suggest Spanish planting!

Resin

Maybe Silba has this Taxodium from New Mexico and
named it Taxodium silbensis like he has done with other
known conifers.

Fortunately, not yet . . . now you know why the finder is keeping its location secret ;-)

Resin

Hi Resin

Yes I agree

Am I confused or has this mysterious newbie of a cypress suddenly been transported from a "remote" location on the Gila national forest to the Rio Grande valley, nowhere near any mountains at all?
And if there is a 1-m. dbh Pinus pinea at this valley location, I'll bet an increment core would put it at about a hundred years, and not an import from Spanish days. Easy enough for any local to find out, and maybe quash the next urban legend.

Hi Ron,

By 'Spanish' I really meant 'European', i.e., as opposed to 'Native American' or 'Local wild origin' ;-)

Resin

Mexico got its independence from Spain on September 1821. After its independence the North of Mexico (Texas, California, New Mexico and Arizona) was almost by its own, meaning that not much people inhabited this region during that time..
So 200 years may be a good estimate for those trees. I will try to get some pics and post them so that you can decide on their age.

osprey

Pinetree30,

No strange transportation.

Osprey is just responding to a separate question about the location of a large Montezuma in Las Cruces -- this one presumably planted by humans.

Interesting...

I have 4 Montezuma Cypress - New Mexico source on the way...

Hey Lou, where did you get those from? Is it a nursery source or just someone you know? I'm looking to plant out some more in my area.

Thanks, kman

Kman,

Did you get my email about New Mexico montezuma cypress? I emailed you this morning or is it last night? Anyway, I told you where to find them... Let me know if you got email from me...

Lou

pinetree30 wrote: "The likelihood that a solitary tree represents an unknown species of conspicuous conifer growing in a desert arroyo is close to nil."

No offense, but the Gila is much more diverse than a desert arroyo. There would be many places in the Gila wet enough for this tree to grow. The question is one of low temperatures and snow. The Gila is mountainous wilderness not desert. Think aspens not saguaros.

If you go back to araquoia's original post, he wrote of a lone "some kind of cypress" growing along a dry creek bed or arroyo. So that's what I commented on.

I wonder if their are any hybrid Taxodiums

Torreya

There's natural hybridization and artificial hybridization...

Surely, there are natural hybridization between montezuma and bald cypress in Texas but there aren't really any information on that subject. At this point, I don't know how to tell whether they are hybrids or not. There are many variabilities apparently from what I've read. Some don't have knees. Some have smaller cones. Some retains their foliage round year (Montezuma is evergreen in zone 9 and warmer). Montezuma has darker green leaves compared to bald cypress that I've seen up close. There happens to be possible montezuma cypress in another subdivision a mile away. it is very rare that they are sold so I wonder how they ended up with that tree but I like it better than bald cypress which doesn't look all that great growing in area with caliche/limestone base soil.

China has done major stuff with montezuma, bald cypress and pond cypress breeding program for quite a while, probably 20 years or longer, i forget the exact numbers but it's a big thing going on over there. They are literally growing millions and millions of cypress seedlings to plant across south area of China. Those trees are not native to their land. They were brought over there from USA in 1800s if I recall correctly.

One hybrid that they came up is between Montezuma and bald cypress called 'Nanjing Beauty' that I have 4 at my house. A professor at my college went to China in the early 2000 to provide some help regarding taxiodium trees and he brought some 'Nanjing Beauty' back from here and I guess he started propagating them since then for evaluation program at 50 different locations across USA. China has since come up with more hybrids. They tend to classify their hybrids such as T-101, T-20, etc like that and do some testing on how they do over certain period of time. It's pretty interesting what they are doing over there. It might be a while before you see 'Nanjing Beauty' being sold anywhere if it gets that far. It is relatively new brought into USA in the early 2000s.

Hi Lou

Interesting article we don't have any hybrid Taxodiums
here in the uk yet please post some pics of the hybrid
Taxodium that you have.I love these trees.

I don't have the pictures of what mature hybrids would look like. honestly, I have no clue. A professor wasn't there when I came to pick up hybrid Taxodiums to show me what 'Nanjing Beauty' would look like. He had them for maybe only 5 years? and I'm not sure where exactly they are planted. I will have to go back and look for it whenever the professor is available. It's 3 hours drive from my house and my free time is quite limited now that I'm married with a kid.