BC will not produce knees easily, or at all, in bonsai culture. Those BC bonsai that have them, were most likely collected with them.

Knees in BC bonsai are almost always way out of scale. The growths don't miniaturize with the tree.

You can make a "knee" that might work by kinking a surface root up against itself and sticking it above the soil. Sometimes this works, but mostly it looks strange.

I was told this is true but have not been able to check the veracity.

"Knees do not develop on bald cypresses until they are very old, over 400 years. No bald cypress planted by European Americans has produced knees, because they simply are not old enough yet."

Now I am not certain this is true, but I have had the pleasure to see planted trees that are in the 50 to 70 year old range and wild trees in the 400 to 800 year old range, including one ancient 1300 year old bald cypress. Only the wild trees had knees. Only in the groves of the ancients did I see knees and there it was hard to tell which tree the knees belonged to. It may be habitat related. The only bald cypresses I have seen with knees were growing in the wet river bottoms or swamp habitats. I have not seen knees on upland trees. Pehaps it is related to oxygen levels at the roots? I don't know for certain.

My personal sampling is limited to the Cache River system in southern IL and the Orlando Florida area. So I don't know if my anecdote is really true.

At any rate, natural knee formation in a pot is unlikely.

don't know where you came up with that quote, but BC of just about any age older than 10 can push up knees. It has nothing to do with age really. It has more to do with soil conditions. The wetter and muckier the location, the more likely the tree will push up knees. The latest thinking has the plants using the knees to stabilize themselves in muddy and soggy locations.

The above is true...I have observed a group of very young BC (maybe 20 years old) around a body of water at one of our state parks where 'knees' have developed everywhere. On the other hand, I have observed an extremely old BC (80-100 years?) situated on a very dry location at a ball park in town that has no knees at all - but an extremely ancient looking trunk and huge buttress..a superb specimen.

I've placed a pic in the gallery. The tree does not stand in water but still has got some knees.

The most logical theory I've run across is that they put up the knees when growing in swamps or extremly soggy conditions in order to get oxygen to the roots since the can't get any in that type of growing condition. when growing in "upland" conditions, they don't need them so they don't develope them.

The O2 theory has been largely discounted. The current thinking is the knees and connecting network of tissue stabilizes the tree in soggy soils. Do a search on Bald Cypress growth or similar. You will most likely come up with some interesting links to university and environmental studies on this.

I just found this post so the follow up is a little late.
I have a Bald Cypress that I have been growing in a pot for over 10yrs. It was 3-4yrs. old when I first got it and since I got it I have kept the roots completely submerged. Over the last 5 years the tree has started to put out knees. This has been an extremely slow process (but then pot growing usually is) and I don't expect to see well defined knees for at least another 5yrs., but the Bald Cypress will definitely grow knees in captivity.

If you don't mind, what kind of soil are you using and what are the demensions of the pot you have it in and the demensions of the tree? I find this a bit interesting... Thanks -Dana

The story of my Taxodium Distichum.
In the spring 1994 I bought the tree. It was about 6ft. tall and had about a 1.5in. dia. at the base. I cut it down to about 12in and left it in it's 3 gallon nursery pot. I took the hole thing, pot and all, and put it in a 5gal bucket and kept it filled to the top with water. I did no fertilizing, I just left all the leaves and other organic junk that had fallen into the bucket there.
In 1999 I noticed that the trunk base had gone being round to going square with 4 pronounced corners.
In 2001 I repotted for the first time and took the tree out of the plastic bucket and nursery pot and put it into a glazed waterproof chinese pot of about 3gal. capacity. It was filled about 3/4th with potting soil "no sand, no gravel" and kept full, to the brim, with water.
When I did the first repotting, I removed a massive tap root that had snaked all though the original plastic bucket and some of the root system. I also some branch pruning. Each year for the past 3yrs. I have reduced the roots so the tree would go into a smaller pot. This year it is going into a 7in. high by 16in dia. pot. remember that I only fill the pot with 3/4 soil and then fill with water.
The tree is currently 31in. high and 3in. in dia. with prominent protuberances in the front and back where it is definitely pushing out knees.

A couple of close-ups of the base of my tree.

http://members.shaw.ca/mc2fb/bonsai/pics/closeup.jpg
http://members.shaw.ca/mc2fb/bonsai/pics/closerup.jpg

As you can see it is definitely pushing out knees.

...I don't see knees...

Nor are there knees. There is the start of knees. A bulging out from the trunk at the base going up the tree about 3-4ins. As I said in my previous post I don't expect to see recognizable knees for another 5yrs.

knees do not grow off the main trunk. They grow out of the ground around the trunk.
John

We are talking about these aren't we?

http://www.srs.fs.usda.gov/gallery/images/1_Bald_Cypress_Swamp.jpg

Because that is what seems to be coming out of the trunk at the base of my tree.

Grimlea,

I have to say that the tissue that is clearly pushing upward-ish is some what suspect but you have seen the growth from the start. It seems to me that you have the burden of proof and time will tell. If indeed it is knees pushing up from the base of the trunk you may have discovered a method for developing them in container culture in which case you should delighted in the fact that you were right and that the world is not flat.:o) Also it may be worth the effort of experimenting further with how these do develope with respect to the depth of the water the tree stands in and the depth of the pots, roots and what not. It seems reasonable that if you have minipulated the tree to produce these organs then minipulating where the tree developes them isn't too far fetched now is it?

I for one do see something but again as to what exactly it is I hope learn more about in 5 years or so. Good for you for trying something different and sticking to it. I am serious about that too. I hope to read more about this in the future. Have you tried this with any other bald cypress'? It would stand to reason that this could infact become a nursery skill if refined and put into practice for the long term. After all in the average lanscape nursery a three inch caliper decideous tree could have been growing for 10 years or so just to make it to being balled and burlapped, let alone a bonsai nursery where trees of all ages are worked on and sold.

How deep was this submerged. That may be a determining factor on the protrusions coming out where they are. It could be argued that the root flare has enough of root tissues to possibly have developed these if the tree were submerged and it's roots were not getting enough oxygen especially if the surrounding root structure was deeper under water. The path of least resistance idea.... And that is what knees do right beside adding more stable support for the tree.

A couple of things to think about anyway.

For the rest of you, who appear to have as much imagination as the people Christopher Columbus first spoke to about the earth being round, how successful are your attempts first at growing this tree and secondly trying to develope knees? Have you tried it at all? How long did you stick with it?

Another thought for you to think about. Do you realize how many failures it took to get a working model of a light bulb? Many bulbs did nothing but some did something. To say that those photos are of nothing is a little less than truthful, it is something. Hundreds and hundreds of failures to develope a glass bulb that emmits light yet you enjoy light at the flick of the switch daily.

Just something to think about. -Dana

Thank-you Dana,
I have to admit that I didn't start this as an experiment. When I got the tree I did not know that I wasn't supposed to be able to do create what I have always called buttresses in this way. I was completely naive about what was considered the proper way to proceed.
What I did was try to create the same conditions as the tree would have in the swamp, right down to never changing the water. I just added new water to the top to compensate for natural lose. When I removed the tree from it's pot the first time 4yrs ago I noticed that the soil just barely covered the root mass and I usually kept the water about an inch higher than that. I'm sure that the water at the bottom of the pot had very little oxygen in it.
Since I first potted it the water get changed every year and there doesn't seem to be any slowing down of the knee development. I was very excited 5 years ago when I noticed that the tree had gone from being round to being square. Since that time I have kept a close eye on the development.
About 5yrs ago I started 5 more BC using the same method, 3 have survived so far. I used much younger plants so I'm expecting it to take much longer to see any results.

Grimlea,

No need to thank me. I think it's easy for people to forget their manners (myself included ) when you aren't face to face with some one in a conversation.

I am glad to hear that even though you happend upon this sort of by accident that you were intuitive enough to do it again. It really might be something to consider for future reference. I'm sure many inventions happen by accident and may even be common practice for a select few people but if your other attemps are as successful you should consider publishing your results. Maybe even trying some sort of scientific method as far as the average daily tempature, size and age of the trees, sizes of the pots and record growth rates and such maybe of both trees and protrusions. You get things named after you stuff like that. Heimlic, I hope I spelled that right, was a physician who developed the heimlic manuver for choking victims; simply noticed that if you pressed firmly enough on a persons diaphram the body lends itself to an involuntary reflex clearing blockages from the throaght, incidentaly people can give themselves the manuver as well. He didn't actually create the reflex but they named that life saving procedure after him anyway and all he did was observe nature.

Speaking of observe nature have you had the occasion to study bald cypress in the wild? Do you have some swamps fairly close to you? I wonder if maybe further study of these trees might also lend you a more accurate recipe for developing knees. So long as it doesn't become a burden right?!
Good luck with your trees. -Dana

Could you post the link info in the "optionalURL" space at the end of the post. I cannot link to your photos.

There is an informative post on BC on the "other" site...

For what it's worth, submersion of BC as bonsai isn't done by many of the BC experts. BC grow in water because they CAN, not because they prefer it. Also, water may not play all that important a role in knew formation--see the photos where a S.C. BC growing in a parking lot island has pushed dozens of them...

Dana, because of all he rain we are getting here I have a swamp in my back yard but, unfortunately I live to far north for it to be the natural habitat of the wild Bald Cypress.

Mark, I don't know what the "other" site is. As for water playing a part in knee formation all I know is what I'm seeing in my own tree. I don't know which link you want so I posted the first one. You should be able to copy and paste the URLs to the address field on your browser.
Thank-you for pointing out the URL link, I hadn't noticed it before.

Here is a link that might be useful: {{gwi:20782}}

Grimlea,

That does not look like the beginnings of a knee, to me anyway. I've been growing BC as bonsai for ten years or so and see them regularly in the wild. That looks more like the typical rolling scar tissue BC develop at injury sites. The dead root at the center makes me think this is more a case of the tree trying to close off an injury than create a knee. As pointed out elsewhere, knees form at root surfaces, not on trunks.

The 'other' site can be found by doing a search for Bonsaitalk.. Gary Marchal is a noted BC bonsai expert with extensive experience.

Here is a link that might be useful: Gary Marchal web page

Thanks for the observation. The pictures really don't show very well what I'm try to describe. It's not the part of the tree you are talking about but rather the trunk to the left of that area. It can be seen a little better in the second picture. This area is dishing in on the sides with the edge facing you rounding off. The trunk was originally round then went to being almost perfectly square at the base. Since then the area in the picture has bulged out from the trunk on one of the "corners".

Here is a link that might be useful: {{gwi:20783}}

Mark I find this an interesting topic and wish to learn more. As you can see in this picture of the BC growing in the wild, the knees extend many feet up the tree and I was wondering about the progress to get to this point from the roots.

Here is a link that might be useful: {{gwi:20785}}

Oh, I get it. "Grimlea" is talking about root buttresses, not knees!

-Crow

Doh!
Can someone post a picture of a "knee" I have no idea what that could be? I'm sorry for any misunderstanding caused by my ignorance.
In the picture on the link below the area I'm talking about is the part closest to the viewer.

Here is a link that might be useful:

You have a root buttress developing IMO not knees.

Try a Google search.(see below)

Knees are proturberances up through the ground usually at some distance from the trunk.

This pic shows them well.

http://www.floridastateparks.org/oleno/photos/visitors/OLN-BaldCypressKnees-DominickMartino.jpg

Here is a link that might be useful: Search Results

This is, indeed, root butressing, and not a "knee". Root buttressing is caused by dominant heavy roots developing below it. It's usually accompanied by a "mirror" of heavier top growth or heavier branch directly above the root flare--at least that's my observation with my BC. Root "fluting" is part of the charm of BC bonsai.

Knees are an entirely different thing, as the pics point out.

Thanks all.
Though its taken days of misunderstanding and your patience, I have learnt something and really appreciate it.

Ok, now that that's settled, let's talk about growing BC bonsai submerged in water...;-) It's not necessary and can actually slow growth of the plant...

"What I did was try to create the same conditions as the tree would have in the swamp, right down to never changing the water. I just added new water to the top to compensate for natural lose."

You have made a great leap in assuming that those are the conditions that BC prefer. They don't actually. More BC grow in places that are better drained and aerated than swamps.If you've been to the Gulf coast, you will see this species everywhere, from well drained sites, to drainage ditches. It is almost a weed.

Also for what it's worth, a swamp isn't stagnant. It is a slow moving extremely wide river, basically. It's water moves, albeit slowly, but it provides oxygen and nutrients to plants in it. Assuming BC roots like anaerobic, standing water is a recipe for disaster...

BC grow in swampy conditions because they CAN, not because they prefer it. They are taking advantage of their natural ability to tolerate swampy conditions and other species not being able to handle it. Swamps aren't the best place for trees. Only a few species can grow standing in water. Water tupelo and BC are the most notable and common.

Your BC will be much happier out of the water tub. Using a heavy, organic, water holding soil is the second. BC throw heavy agressive roots no matter where they're kept. They have to be root pruned most every year as bonsai, unless they're leaf pruned.

I used to keep by old collected BC in a tub of water all summer. The tree usuallly yellowed by late August, meaning it was stressed. I stopped keeping the plant in the water when Gary Marchal (of the above site) told me that most all of the Louisiana bonsaiists that work with BC don't keep them in water, but in heavier bonsai soil...

Thanks, but if I take your suggestion I will loose the one thing I like best about my tree. The shock value when people see it living in standing water. That one tree is responsible for more people coming into our booth at exhibits than any other members tree. Here on Vancouver Island people just never see that sort of thing unless they travel. Although The BC starts later than most of my other deciduous tree by about a month it doesn't start to turn until about the same time as my maples do in the fall.
This tree lived in unchanged standing water for over six years. The roots were never pruned and the only nutrient the tree got was organic matter that fell into the bucket. The trunk of the tree was cut to about 1/6 of it's original hight when I put it into the bucket.
Thank-you for your advice I will be taking my other three BC out of their bucket and transfer them into heavy soil, but when they have matured enough to make good bonsai I think the will go into water pots. I just like the looks of them better that way.

Yeah! Who needs art when you can have shock instead?

-Crow

"The shock value when people see it living in standing water. That one tree is responsible for more people coming into our booth at exhibits than any other members tree."

"This tree lived in unchanged standing water for over six years. The roots were never pruned and the only nutrient the tree got was organic matter that fell into the bucket."

Oh...jeez.

Up until this point I had enjoyed this forum, but then I didn't understand the type of people that hung out here.
Good-bye

You're welcome.

Can't understand why you're upset, though. Is it the information we've provided, or our apparent unease at your apparent willful ignorance in using it....

In any case, good luck with the bonsai shock and awe campaign...

If you'd asked how you might show this tree's abilities for a show audience, we might have said 'why not just plunk the tree in a tub of water for the show and take it out when it's over?'" Instead, you've chosen again to continue on a curious path of the willfully misinformed. Remember those root flares aren't knees...

Geez Mark,

Let the poor guy grow his trees in a bucket - if that's what he likes. Who knows, maybe his trees will produce
real knees in oh, 50 years or so? - o.k., maybe not.

Scott, yeah, sure, only this person is supposed to be promoting bonsai. The tree will be dead in 50 years or 5 or 6...

Do you think a bonsai club should actively promote mistreatment or deliberately misinform people for "shock" value? It's thinking like this that perpetuates bonsai as a novelty in the public's eye. Many bonsai people have worked hard to get people to see the art as art, not as a kitschy freak show. Bragging about how you never care for a living thing in your possession is hardly a good way to promote bonsai.

This kind of "get them in the booth by any means necessary" mentality doesn't do anyone any good.

Mark,

I hear what you are saying - I just had to razz
you a little! True, we need to promote good bonsai
culture, unfortunately, what's good bonsai culture to
one person might be horrible practices to another....
I guess all you can do is try to steer people in the right
direction according to your own knowledge and experience - it's up to them to do the rest.

Scott, I tried that, I was cordial and humorous (or at least I thought I was--I'll have to re-read my response) to someone who had absolutely no idea what they were talking about. I, and a few others, explained things rather nicely.

We were met with a cold shoulder and an "i know better attitude" even though this person was absolutely and utterly clueless about what they were talking about.

And as for "what's good bonsai culture to one person might be horrible practices to another" tell that to the BC left standing neglected in a stinking, slimy stagnant bucket of water where it has no future either as a bonsai, or as a living thing.

Mark, I would tell that to BC but I don't think he'd listen ;-) Sometimes people use certain methods thinking they are doing nothing wrong. Many people new to the art of bonsai do this. They don't realize they are doing anything wrong until they start investigating what may be working well for other people. Unfortunately the tree has no say in the matter.

Scott,

That's really the point. She wasn't new to the art and when informed that here care might not be the best, got huffy and left. The tree has no say, but the caregiver does. No the tree, like a pet has no say in its care. Caring for a tree is a responsibility--pure an simple. Although bonsai are hardly dogs or cats, they are living things that owners have imposed their will on. To deliberately not provide care for a bonsai because you want to brag about how you deliberately mistreat it is a little much for me to stomach.

Mark, some of the folks that post out here are just a little more thin-skinned than others. I think she/he? is/was? new to the forum and mis-interpreted you. Hopefully they'll be curious enough to return.

Scott, I don't think anybody misinterpretted anybody. I think a lot of people come on here with a do-it-yourself mentality and want to be told that they are creative geniuses because they can grow a plant in a pot without worrying about any of them old-fashion Jap'nese rules. When instead they run head-on in the brick wall of realistic assessment and accurate advice, they suffer an inevitable concussion.

-Crow

Crow,

I didn't mean that they misinterpreted the advise, I think that they interpreted it just fine. What they didn't interpret correctly is Mark's demeanor. I don't think that he meant his advise to sound mean-spirited, however, from the looks of it, I'd guess they took it that way.

"This tree lived in unchanged standing water for over six years. The roots were never pruned and the only nutrient the tree got was organic matter that fell into the bucket. "

What to heck could you possibly mean by that. Have you ever heard evaporation? No way that a tree can live for six years in the same water. The water has to be replenished some how. Snow, rain, waterhose, etc.

Tony

How would I go about finding and contacting an "expert" in the Bald Cypress? I am looking for someone who has both studied these trees academically, and has spent time in the field-- in the swamps and along the waterways-- with them. This is a research project concerning BC in the wild and extensive knowledge of that environment is a must.

And for what it's worth, a submerged BC is not going to produce knees when confined to a potted environment. I stumbled upon this message board while researching the topic of knees themselves, and while I am not at liberty at this point to explain why it won't work, I may simply say that there are few if any cases of a BC actually growing knees DURING submerged conditions. BC itself rarely grows in water, leaving that privelige for the Pond Cypress, which may or may not be a variation of the BC itself.

On another post: There is a location near Jacksonville International Airport, in Jacksonville Florida, where BC planted in a landscaped environment have produced knees in less than 10 years time. The key to knee production seems to be an environment that, while not constantly flooded, is at least occasionally submerged.

Is there such a thing as a bald cypress specialist? I'm having a hard time findind one.

Illusnist,

BC is an interesting species and there are several "experts" on them around. Probably the most valuable publication I've seen on them is "Bald Cypress, The Tree Unique, The wood Eternal." The 130 page or so book was written by C.A. Brown and G.W. Montz back in 1986--published by Claitor's PUblishing Div. out of Baton Rouge, La. It has a wealth of information on BC growth habits, quirks and history.

The best bonsai BC expert is Gary Marchal. I've listed his website below. He is EXTREMELY knowledgeable about the species in the wild and "in captivity." He has collected the species from the wild and has been growing it extensively as bonsai for a decade at least. Shoot him an email with some questions. I'm pretty sure he will answer.

Your observations on BC are basically what I've been using to grow BC as bonsai--after email advice from Gary. He told me to get my BC out of the water tub eight years ago. He said at the time the species doesn't like to grow submerged in water. They only do it because they CAN. They are exploiting a niche not many other trees can.

The "BC must grow in a tub of water because that's what they do in the wild" nonsense is very prevalent in bonsai circles and a hard myth to put to rest.

For what it's worth, there are BC planted as street trees in New Orleans near Harrah's Casino that are pushing knees up. I doubt those trees are older than 10 or 15 years. They're also not growing in water...

Come back and post your research when it's done.

Here is a link that might be useful: Gary Marchal Bonsai