Karin, in my zone 7a, I routinely cut my type II clematis back in July or so to about a foot since they turn brown and crispy due to the heat and humidity. My type IIs always respond by putting out new growth and flowering again quite easily within a month or so. I am sure that in your zone you should easily be able to grow a type II in a vitex bush (I have one but it is in tree form now), be able to trim the bush back to keep it in bounds, and still get blooms from your clematis within the same year. If you are only going to be cutting back to within six feet or so, that will increase the chances of blooms.

As to your question on old wood versus new wood, the oldest of my type IIs in the ground is about three years old. I can't really answer your question about new vines from real woody growth since mine are so young relatively speaking and the fact that I whack mine back severely every year. In fact, my Sunset is treated as a type III clematis since it was supposed to be Margot Koster originally and that is how I have treated it since even after finding out it was really Sunset. Generally speaking, old wood is wood that has been in existence at least one year. Totally new growth is considered green wood and anything in between is generally considered semi-hard wood. I would think that even if you cut your woody stems close to the ground you would still get blooms on the new wood seeing as how I get blooms on my type IIs from essentially new wood every year when I whack them back.

Any clematis if planted deeper in the ground than it was in its original container and pruned back severely the first year after planting should develop multiple stems from its crown. If you plant a clematis with only one stem and never trim it back, that is when you run into the potential problem of your clematis not developing multiple stems.

Thank you nck. One of my concerns is that the Belle apparently produces single blooms on the later growth, so I'm hoping I'll see some early, double ones. Your answer is encouraging; I'll forge on!

Good luck Karin. Sometimes experimentation is the only way to answer specific questions for your own particular garden and growing location.

Karin, I've grown Belle for years and as Miguel knows, I prune her back pretty hard each spring (can't be bothered to fine-tune a lot of clematis pruning into "groups" - too many clematis and too little time, so they all get pruned [those that need pruning] the same and at the same time). She may bloom a bit later than if I had used a more delicate touch, but she blooms like a sonofagun! In fact, she is currently still has a few late flowers and they are indeed doubles.

In our mild climate, I have yet to see a group II clematis not bloom well even if subjected to hard pruning. This may not be the case everywhere, but I doubt you will experience much of a decline in flowering (a slight delay perhaps) if you need to cut back heavily every so often.

Hey gardengal. Thanks for chiming in here. I looked back at my database of people who prune their type IIs as type IIIs and do indeed see that you have treated your Belle of Woking as a III and that it just bloomed a little later than normal as a result. I will add the comment that you still got doubles on it treating it as a type III! Thanks again.

Gardengal, your overall Clematis philosophy is as welcome as the specific info about Belle; thank you and I am relieved to hear it. I guess that is yet another example of how forgiving our gardening climate is here in the PNW, from what I've read in other threads.

And I'm delighted that you elicited that bonus bit of information about Miguel's database; I'm too new in the forum to have known that. I can barely keep track of my own experiences so it is darn nice to know, Miguel, that you are able to even keep track of other peoples'!

I have a bad case of zone envy! LOL I have enough trouble just getting type 2s to establish well. We had a long season this year, also the hottest summer in 30 yrs and one of the driest. I still only saw rebloom/long bloom on type 3s.

Type 2s have generally been a disappointment in my yard with wilt immediately after bloom. Now that I know enough to plant them deeper, they return well but bloom is usually quite sparse, although I see the ubiquitous Nellie Mozer blooming well around the neighborhood. So now I'm down to just a couple - and next season is their last chance!

Karin, the info I have been collecting has to do with people who prune their type IIs back either prior to the first normal flush of blooms/those who prune them back later in the season and still get blooms. It was a thread we had going earlier this year and I decided to elicit responses from people to record the information. So if anyone out there still has info they would like to contribute, you can send it to me and I will be willing to add it to the info I have and share it with anyone who might want it.

We also had a thread about the general pruning rules for clematis that are floating around out there and how they truly are just guidelines to get people started and how after one gets to know the growth habits of their clematis, they can modify the rules as it suits each individual person and their gardening environment.

Leslie, don't give up on your type IIs just yet. Many people report their type IIs outgrowing wilt eventually. There are some who think wilt affects the LFH who grow and put on too much top growth as compared to the size of the root system. The plant wilts and causes some of the top growth to die out so the roots have a chance to become more established. If this truly is the case, then it lends credence to the idea that clematis should be pruned back severely after their first year in the ground regardless of which pruning group they fall into. Don't despair because we had people in zones as low as 4 report that they have trimmed their type IIs back to 18 inches or so in the spring and still had them to bloom later in the season.

I'm glad this was back on, Miguel, because I think that I'm going to prune back my Asao severely this coming year. It kinda needs it. I'm torn because we're having a major party 2 weeks from the regular time of its bloom. I hope my decision is right; Asao is always the first of mine to flower and I'd hate to have nothing outside blooming.
Here's the same plant last year, I don't think it'll beat this next year if I prune hard:
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y291/gimmeclems/100-0010_IMG_5.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y291/gimmeclems/100-0011_IMG.jpg

and lots of doubles:
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y291/gimmeclems/100-0013_IMG_2.jpg

Sorry you have to copy and paste; I forgot how to post here and have to go. . . .

Gimmieclemmies, hope it works out for you as your Asao looks smashing. I have one planted with Ramona and hope the two of them can both coexist on the obelisk I have them planted on. Of course if the weather warms up sooner or stays cooler longer than normal this spring, that in and of itself could throw another variable into the brew as to when your clematis will bloom! Mother Nature is very unpredictable these days!

By the way, for photos stored on Photobucket, all you have to do to post the pictures directly is copy the Tag line under your picture on Photobucket and paste it into your message. The picture will show up when you do the preview of your message. Hope that helps.

Whoops, I was copying the Url line, I guess.
Thanks.

No problem Gimmie, glad to be of help.