torture chamber, or possible planting spot?

13 years ago

We would like to plant a few trees to improve a view at work. Preferably conifers as the common belief is less leaf clean-up; though I am open to deciduous suggestions as well. The location is a narrow 'aisle' that is 25 ft wide and 50+ ft long. The long direction is east-west. At the north and south of this patch of ground are buildings that are close to 30 ft high. The ground recieves zero direct sunlight in the dead of winter due to the height of the walls - but I think most of it will get direct high summer sun. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the biggest challenge will be the soil. The ground in question is an old rail-road bed and very gravely. Little grass grows there, mostly weeds including plantains and knapweed that are only weed-whipped a few times a year to keep them in check. The business is not likely to put forth any $ to help amend the soil - so it's just a few of us employees that will pool our money to buy a tree or two and I'll be digging the hole myself.

Is there such a tree that could exist, possibly thrive here? Or is it just a grave if we tried to plant something? The windows are high up, so we couldn't see a nice planting of one foot tall alpines. We're looking for something that will reach the 30 ft walls and exceed them in a few decades.

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Comments (12)

Toronado3800 Zone 6 St Louis
13 years ago
In st louis many conifers grow out of the rocks surrounding the highway cuts. I believe them to be cedars or junipers. My ID skills suck suck suck though. Lord forbid I ever need to identify a tree in court lol.

I can think of a bald cypress doing well in old town st peters planted in a spot similar to what you are describing. Those look like your typical evergreens but shed foliage in the fall....come to think of it old town is built in a floodplain so there is probably a high water table there.

Ken, you stay up near the north pole lol. What are you thinking?
ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5
13 years ago
many.. many .. conifers grow on the sides of mountains in scree ... all rock ... i doubt that is an issue ...

what the RR put into the soil might be an issue ..

but i think your biggest problem.. being that MOST conifers require FULL sun.. is your lack of sunlight ... how much sun will they get during what part of summer???

some can deal with reduced levels.. but getting a transplant to grow vigorously lacking full sun.. might be a problem..

more facts on the sun issue ...

ken

ps: its been a long winter staring out those work windows.. eh.. lol ..
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tsugajunkie z5 SE WI ♱
13 years ago
"what the RR put into the soil might be an issue"

I agree, whether the RR put it there intentionally or spilled or whatever. Depending on the sun and soil I'm sure a few conifers may work but before you spend bigger bucks on conifers either have a soil test done or experiment with a few shade perennials...or both.

tj
texjagman
13 years ago
Agree...with it being railroad gravel a test will show if it has any petroleum products buried in it.

Can't grow any tree in oily gravel.

mark
ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5
13 years ago
the other thing that strikes me in the scenario ...

is that this is a courtyard of sorts... and you want to plant a giant tree ...

you will be long gone.. and the thing will top out over 50 feet.. and fall on the building ....

anything that will grow over the 30 feet you are dreaming about.. will not stop ...

its all about the annual growth rate of your options ... if it grows a foot per year .... it going to take 30 years to get 30 feet .... depending on transplant size of course ... and 60 years to get to 60 feet ... unless it slows down for some reason ...

but you can find things that might 3 feet per year ... and cover your 30 feet in 10 years.. but odds are.. with that growth rate.. it wont slow down in your lifetime.. and will be 60 feet in 20 years .... then where will the building owner be????

you seem like you should be tech savvy enough.. to post us some pix .. so that maybe we can brainstorm for you ...

larger transplants ... take the move harder.. and take longer to re-establish .... which will be complicated by the sun levels .... you will not solve the problem going big ...

on reflection .... i highly doubt that your building was placed directly above a RR brownfield ... my guess is that anything like that was removed .... though a $10 test will solve that issue ...

more likely ... it was an architecture issue.. of the nimrod designer thinking .. that if he put in gravel.. no weeds would grow there ... lol .. yeah.. well .. he was wrong ... lol.. or she ...

how about some pix ....

ken
sweetgreen
Original Author
13 years ago
Thanks, I never thought about what other (toxic) things might be in the gravel - I will look into that. Though maybe we're ok as this is technically an old rail-road 'spike', just something built so the railcars could get to the unloading docks years and years and years ago - not a main highway. I can still see the metal track in places, but there's no trace of wooden (oiled?) ties. Awesome - you give me hope!

Other than personal experience and measuring - anyone know if there is a tool out there on the web maybe that will tell me what the angle of the sun is during given times of year at my location? Then I could calculate just when the site will get any direct sun.

Also, I think we'll need a somewhat narrow tree for the area too, so it doesn't rub the building and cause someone to want to cut it down or limb it up just when it's coming into its glory.

Ken: yes, it has been a very long winter staring out at a blank metal wall 25 feet away. :(
sweetgreen
Original Author
13 years ago
I found a solar elevation calculator and the bad news is the actual ground in the middle of the plot will NEVER get direct sunlight. The top of a ten foot tree would be in direct sun for 5 months out of the year.

So now that I know it has to be a shade tolerant, narrow tree - any suggestions?? Also, if this is any help, I'm sure the ground is well draining as I've never seen water standing there, but there are several roof drains and downspouts that dump on this ground - so enough moisture will not be a problem - might be too much.

Ken, work fire-wall prevents me from posting pictures or I would :( I envisioned the 60+ foot tall tree also when I'm dead and gone. But this company is a tree-tolerant one, if not a tree-loving one. Just around the corner from this spot, in full sun, is a 40+ ft tall blue spruce, and north of that is a 70+ sycamore, both within 20-30 feet of the building.

I'm not dumb, or rich, enough to want to transplant a big tree. I'm thinking of something in the 3-5 foot range. And I'm open to absolutely anything green. Trash tree, arborvitae, juniper, or some freaky cultivar. Just something that will break up the wall and lend a hand to greening the earth.

We had the nimrod designer put in rock - like 4-6 inch rock, in a few areas around the building thinking they'd not have to mow it anylonger. lol. But this area seems to have been just graveled over.

One thought did just cross my mind - what if I could get a small berm of soil dumped and plant on the top of a mini-hill? It would get the tree a tiny bit closer to sun, but would the soil change be detrimental to it?
ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5
13 years ago
without direct sun ... we are down to defining shade ...

i have been between buildings.. where it is like a dark grotto ... so dark.. you can barely see anything ...

i have been in shade gardens ... where it is so bright.. that i needed sunglasses ...

so now you have to define how bright it is in there ... many conifers ... beyond the shade lovers.. can handle shade.. depending on ambient light ....

no home computer to post us some pix with photobucket.com???

ken
sweetgreen
Original Author
13 years ago
Sorry, no home computer :( If I did, I would ignore my family and live on this website. It's a good thing I'm constrained by the limits of a work computer...

This shade is on the bright side. I was actually very suprised when I discovered that the sun didn't reach the ground. There is no obstruction to the sky other than the building walls - though they are a BIG obstruction. And the walls from top to bottom are a pale tan, almost almond, color that reflects lots of light.

So do you think a berm is a bad idea?
texjagman
13 years ago
Short term a berm is fine. Long term it would have to be a very very large berm to support a deep rooting tree.

Yews are very forgiving, come in many sizes and shapes, and like shade. Some other plants I've grown fairly well in shaded areas, but offer some unique colors and shapes are Tsuga canadensis 'Moon Frost', Cupresses sempervirens 'Swane's Variegated' and 'Swane's Golden', Cryptomeria japonica 'Knaptonensis', Chamaecyparis pisifera 'King's Gold', and Thuja occidentalis 'Degroot's Spire'....check their zones against yours.

Some of these may lose their golden colors to some extent if the shade is too dark, and they may also get a little leggy compared to what they would look like in fuller sun, but I like them all and they seem to like bright shade for me.

mark
ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5
13 years ago
one option at link ... though not a conifer ... can be nearly stumped to the trunk every year ... note the 4th picture counting from the top left ... flip to the WEB side for pruning/training info ...

with hard core pollarding [google pollarded trees] .. and its growth rate.. this might be part of the ticket ...

where are you in MI????

ken

Here is a link that might be useful: link
sweetgreen
Original Author
13 years ago
Why didn't I think of yews? That's an option I will look into more.

Ken, my mother has one climbing up an old telephone pole, just like in that fourth pic. Too cool. I've always been afraid of them because they are soo agressive. But it couldn't hurt much in this spot.

The site in question is very south in michigan, just about on the Indiana border. I'm wondering if with the protection of the buildings that I could push my zone a bit...

torture chamber, or possible planting spot?

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Toronado3800 Zone 6 St Louis

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