I think there are some comparisons out there on the Internet between growing citrus in Florida versus California, culbreathbay, if no one pipes up who can also give you some first-hand comparisons. If I remember correctly, citrus in California will color up better due to the colder evening temps. Also, Navels do better in California in general, and Valencias better in Florida. The dry weather in California supports the growth of the thick-peel, sweet "table" oranges; while the damp heat of Florida promotes a juicier orange. So, maybe that's why you're seeing juicier Meyers, which is very interesting, because the Meyer, in general, is a pretty juicy lemon. Mine are big and juicy here in California, that's wonderful that yours are REALLY ginormous! Post some photos, we'd love to see your citrus!!

Patty S.

Rainfall in Florida more frequent & abundant than in CA. Also soil is different.

Well I prefer Oklahoma citrus. LOL

mike

Well, I'm sure that Northern NM citrus would be the best, if only it were warm enough here to grow it outside!:)

But on a more serious point (if slightly off topic), I definitely would choose CA over FL for gardening in general. I was just in Miami, which I thought would be a tropical paradise, but was not impressed. San Diego has a much more beautiful and exotic feel in my opinion.

Oh I love San Diego! I would love to retire in La Jolla!

But anyway, I was just saying that it's been a really interesting experience to have now grown citrus in the 2 major citrus producing states, and to see how different the trees behave, etc. I had read about the differences, and about how you can't do this in Florida, or that in California, and let me tell you, the books/websites are often wrong.

I would encourage people to experiment and try things that even the books/websites say won't work. For example, I am growing excellent eureka lemons here in Tampa, as well as Italian lemons. Every book will tell you that growing these trees in Florida is a no-go. It's too hot, too humid, etc.

They are wrong.

According to Lewis Walton, the Gulf Coast states grow better citrus not because of the rain, but because of the high humidity. John Panzarella, the Dean of Texas amateur citrus growers says the humidity and cooler temperatures at harvest is the key.

Rootstock also fits into this. Since Florida began growing citrus mostly on lemon to overcome citrus tristesa virus, the quality of their export fruit has been very poor to barely good. On a trip there at this time three years ago we found Valencias that were very disappointing and some Murcotts that were just OK (seedlings?). I remember how I used to search out these two plus fantastic Red Navels, Danceys, and Minneolas from the Sunshine State in local TX markets.

We used to get some good Minneolas from small CA growers. And specialty mandarins too. Now the only edibles we get from out West are the Cuties (which are quite good in season). I need to go out to CA for some local citrus some day. But that is hard to do now since I have one or two varieties a week ripening from around Thanksgiving to mid Jan.

In this paragraph I am referring to big commercial citrus only. I know some small growers have good fruit in California but it is no longer available here. The region S.E. of Monterrey Mexico in the foothills of the Sierra Madre Orrientals is where I thought the most consistantly good N. Am. citrus producers are located. That location is at the apex of the conflux of three climatic and pyhsiographic influences: a) subtropics (warmth) , b) the Gulf Coast Plain (humidity), c) the cooling mountain air at night in fall and winter. This year there were less available here. Texas is second only because we average more dry years(La Nina?). Louisiana grew better citrus than California before Katrina and HLB hit them. CA may just become number one if HLB and the drug cartels are not controlled.

I have often been dismayed at the clueless California citrus lovers (elsewhere) running down Florida export citrus. If they ever tasted ANY of the zillions of tons of tasteless Sunkist Washington navels on the shelves of every American supermarket they should be ashamed. I am not singling out Sunkist, others in CA are just as bad. Only Sunkist runs all those ads. (Gardenweb posters are not clueless)

Disclaimer: If you buy Texas oranges and mandarin hybrids before Dec and after mid Feb, you're risking out of season fruit on most years but that can vary. You can get a few super Texas Valencias until end of March but I doubt you will find them except at small fruit stands not on US-77 and US-281. Rio Reds are good thru Apr. and rival any red grapefruit anywhere.

Tantanman,
Would you happen to have any citrus academic contacts in Texas? I am looking for a citrus guru from California, Texas, or Florida, in particular someone knowledgeable in post harvest tactics, to come to Guatemala to advise me on my Meyer project in return for publication rights. I'm embarrassed to admit I don't even know which TX university is the citrus center; although my Brother lives in Austin.

Thanks,
John

Larry, in defense of California citrus: I agree, the quality of our wonderful, famous Washing Navel orange has declined, but it's not due to California not having optimal growing conditions for citrus. We actually have some of the best growing conditions in the world for citrus. Unfortunately, growers cannot afford to grow citrus in those areas anymore (Los Angeles County, Orange County, San Diego County being the top three, and then Riverside County and San Bernardino County right behind.) Over the last 20 years or so, the commercial citrus industry has migrated from these optimal growing areas. Why? Two reasons which are both economic: 1. Cost of land, 2. Cost of water. Nearly all commercial citrus growing has left these 5 counties, especially the first 3, and have moved to the Central Valley, where both land and water are far cheaper. But, the conditions are not nearly as optimal as there are along the southern coastal areas. I look out every day to the most gorgeous 80 acre abandoned Valencia orange orchard. I was planted about 30 maybe 40 years ago. The oranges are delicious (even more sweeter because they're not being watered, but when they were being managed, they were still out of this world). Our conditions here on the coast are much more similar to the Gulf coast states, just not as humid, but far more humid than the Central Valley of California. It's a sad transition in our citrus growing history, but part of a inevitable economic transition, since we have to import our water from both N. California, which has been highly regulated over the last 10 years, as well as from the east, from the Colorado River, also hotly contested. And of course the fact that everyone wants to live in S. California, which has driven up the cost of land, making it uneconomical for large agricultural operations to exist in the coastal regions anymore. Orange County was named after the huge number of commercial orange orchards. My first house I ever lived in, in Garden Grove, was built on an old Washington Navel orange orchard, and we had about 6 navel orange trees left in our backyard. I remember in high school, driving out the 60 freeway through Riverside and what was then called, "Sunnymead" through hundreds and hundreds of acres of orange and lemon groves to go to the desert. The smell during the spring was so intoxicating it was and still is one of my fondest memories.

And, "Cuties" are not a mandarin variety, Larry. They are actually several small, seedless, easy to peel varieties, depending upon the season, starting with Clementine in the early season, then moving to several other options, which can include W. Murcott as well as Clemenules and Tangos.

Patty S.

My experience is that California citrus looks way better than Florida citrus. Seldom do I see perfectly colored, blemish free fruits from Florida (maybe with the exception of some very high dollar gift fruits.) But with the possible exception of the various types of "cuties" I have not had good tasting California citrus though. The minneolas from CA are flat out insipid (though beautiful to look at.)

Floridas citrus industry is also on a decline for some of the same reasons Patty mentioned... It's easier to sell the grove off to make a development than keep working it. But there is still some great citrus to be had... Strangely, I never see much FL citrus here in the supermarkets even though I live in FL, most of its CA. I usually end up at farmers markets and specialty produce stands to get anything decent.

I should also say that it could be the 1200 mile journey that makes the citrus from CA not be appealing to my tongue.

Johnmerr:

Texas A&M University Kingsville
Citrus Center Weslaco
312 International Blvd.
Weslaco, TX 78596-9027

956 969-0649

kcc-weslaco.tamu.edu

Patty:

About the Cuties, I knew that was only a marketing name and they originally had Clemenules on the bottom of the boxes and they began to change later to more varieties. I did not know Tango is one of them. When do they start? I'd like to try them if I could figure out the season.

The story on water is more dire in for Texas citrus than for California. Texas growers have to deal with Mexico stealing water above their agreed to quotas (corruption), while the Texas growers get too little or none. Of course neither Bush nor Obama did anything about that. Land prices down there went from a few hundred to $5500 an acre in a few years. Many groves were dozed and developed into housing. That growth was started by NAFTA but has collapsed due to the drug wars across the border.

Citrus growers now can sell their crops. Before, Florida had unlimited ads on TV taking all the business.

In California, we usually start to see "Cuties" around November/December, which would be Clementines. They're still around now, in fact. Just saw them in the store yesterday. They are usually in the stores from about mid-November through April.

And I know about the issues with Mexico and Texas farmers. It is horrible. And, I am shocked that Bush, a Texan, didn't really step in and protect the Texas farmers. I wish that we'd see more documentaries and storeis about what they're dealing with there on the border. It is truly frightening. I hope things are improving and we can get that border better protected for them from the Mexican drug lords.

Patty S.

Tantanman,
Thanks for the info on Texas A&M.

" Texas growers have to deal with Mexico stealing water above their agreed to quotas (corruption)"

Well we did steal Arizona, New Mexico, California, Nevada, Utah and the Colorado river is now a trickle for them because of dams in the US. I think US has more than gotten their "fair share" of resources here in America with relations to Mexico.

I live in San Jose and I find the CA citrus to be sub par in supermarkets but it's great on all the neighborhood trees when allowed to ripen. I think they pick most everything too early for supermarket citrus. Some farmers markets have okay citrus.

I'm lucky enough to live pretty close to where a lot of the old citrus is still grown in So Cal. For the second time in two weeks my work has had me drive up to Santa Maria, CA. It's a long but nice drive. Part of it is up the 126 HWY which has many miles of orange and avocado groves with plenty of other farms between them like onions, lettuce and strawberries. There are plenty of farm stands to stop at and buy their fresh produce at a fraction of the cost of a supermarket.

My wife and I bought a nice assortment of produce last week and I think the favorite was the cuties.

On a side note I can't believe how much of the beautiful green rolling hills as you get near Santa Maria have been turned from cattle grazing land into vineyards. It is similar to the orange groves being dozed for houses.

We grew Clementines in our orchards.

The reason the store bought citrus is not as good at times is because of big business over production. I mean, they don't wait for them to get tree ripened. The general public has never tasted a tree ripened orange or tangerine, etc, so they don't know the difference. Partially ripe fruit ships better and stores longer. It comes down to big bucks folks. The small fruit growers no longer exist except in a few areas.

Tree ripened citrus is just like any other vine ripened or tree ripened fruit or veggie. It has time to get all the sunshine it needs to make sugars. It is the sugar content that makes them sweet and juicy, even limes and lemons.
We picked limes and lemons off our trees that weren't tart. They were tangy sweet.

Everything Patty S. stated above is true (I have those same memories, Patty) She hit it right on the head of the nail. And the radically changing climate, together with the wasted use of water on bull crap things like fountains in front of casinos and multi-billion dollar water parks and etc, plus everyone wanting their own swimming pool which they seldom use, and not letting people in rural areas use grey water to irrigate and water their gardens and small orchards like they used to do, makes it worse. Stupid water practices and ignorance coupled with big business has devastated the former Agri-business that made California so great.

"It's the economy stupid". (sorry, I just HAD to throw that one out there)

Annie is right. In fact, I can bet my Master Gardener certification that Annie and her family probably NEVER bought citrus from a supermarket. They either picked it from their backyard (over 90% of the citrus trees grown in the state of California are grown in someone's backyard. This stat was shared in my class at UC Riverside, "Citrus in the Home Garden". I was blown away.) OR, her family bought it at the local corner fruit stand, of which there were hundreds when we were growing up as a kid, and there are STILL many out here in N. SD County/Fallbrook area, thank goodness. And, our wonderful Farmer's Market, of which our Vista Farmer's Market is famous for it's produce. It is one of the oldest farmer's markets in San Diego county, and has won awards for it's incredible produce. Citrus included :-) And it is so very sad that water has become such a political issue here in our state. It has put so many lovely 4, 5 and 6-generation farmers and orchardists out of business. The family that owns the abandoned orchard behind me (forced out of business due to the cost of water), was one of the founding families of San Marcos. They have been here since right after the Civil War.

Patty S.

Patty S.,
No, we never bought very much in the way of food from the stores in town, except staples. With a growing season of nine months of the year and very fertile soil, we grew all our own vegetables, fruit (including citrus), grapes, berries and strawberries. We had milk cows, a milk goat, a donkey, a horse, guineas, chickens and rabbits. My Grandfather was a Master Bee Keeper. He and Grandmother harvested and sold honey, so we had honey too. We were pretty much self-sustaining.

All the big ranches around there are gone now. Taxes got too high and the politicians and land speculators forced all the old dirt farmers and rancher families out. Now big multimillion dollar homes sit on my family's property. My great-grandparent's ranch is now the Fallbrook Golf Course and their home which he built is a bed and breakfast.
or some such. (Grrrrrr)

"An orange grown in Florida usually has a thin and tightly-
fitting skin, and it is also heavy with juice. Californians say that if you want to eat a Florida orange, you have to get into the bathtub first." -- John McPhee "Oranges"

There is another saying in Florida, something along the lines of, "With a California orange you couldn't make a damp spot on pavement with a 10-ton truck."

Hmmm. Well, certainly Florida citrus are thinner skinned, but I would challenge the thought that our California citrus are not juicy. That's a fallacy. My citrus are plenty juicy. Certain varieties extremely so, like my lovely Cocktails. Perhaps to some degree in the commercial arena, but not in my backyard :-)

Patty S.

We always ate our oranges outside and then used the garden hose to wash off all the juice that we got all over us.

Here in Oklahoma, we get Citrus from all over the US and Mexico, and even Costa Rica, South Africa and Israel. Depending upon the time of the year, and who had frost damage, droughts, and etc., is the ONLY determinate for the juiciness and quality of what we get shipped to our state and sold in the produce depts, NOT where they were grown.

This discussion sounds more like a football rally for whose team is the best rather than a legitimate discussion about citrus. Hog wash.

~Annie

Not every legitimate discussion needs be fitted for a stuffy schoolmarms' convention, ladies knitting club chit chat, or small talk at a retired parsons' old folks home.

People who REALLY know and live citrus love the friendly and good natured banter and jibing and well know the underlying if hyperbolized truths.

California's main citrus industry is geared toward fresh eating and Florida's towards juicing. The differences between their main selected "varieties" should therefore come as no surprise. There are exceptions, of course. Florida's Indian River area grows a lot of fresh-eating fruit, which tends to be called "fancy fruit" in Florida.

Oh! Sorry, Larry, misunderstood. Tangos are ripe from January through April. You can't miss them as they are SUPER shiny all on their own. They almost look fake or like they were shined :-) And, they will be a bit bigger in comparison to the other "Cutie" mandarin varieties.

Patty S.

Patty:

Thanks. I'll pick up some soon. No more mandarins in my grove.

Larry

tantanman there in Texas sounds like he ought to get his "body burden" of selenium tested. That can be a problem in Texas soils. It helps puts the "loco" in locoweed.

Larry,

Thanks to you I made a good contact at Kingsville, Dr. J.C. Melgar; he is willing to help me. I will be visiting the Kingsville area 29 and 30 March; are you in that area?
I'm hoping to visit with some growers in the area and maybe a packing plant.
John