Cathy,

You and I read the same member's page. That person is no longer active. I was taken aback when I read that too. Maybe he was only wanting to raise the livestock for his own personal enjoyment and was not planning to release them. Isn't he the person mentioned in the past members' thread that was attacked for his pinned collection? It would be interesting to read some of those old posts.

Legally, if you don't have a license, you shouldn't ship eggs, etc, across state lines. Shady Oak has a license. Shady Oak will not ship Zebra Longwings to Oklahoma. They list the states on their website with what BFs can be shipped to each state. Some of their livestock can not leave the state of Florida.

Hopefully someone in-the-know will fill us in and give us more information regarding trading livestock across statelines.

Sandy

Cathy,

Say what?

Unless there is some new federal law on the books I don't know about, or a locality has its own specific regulations against it (like Hawaii for example), who says you can't ship or receive whatever species of Lepidopteran livestock you want to (short of those species that are protected under any of several "acts" naturally)? I reared even worldwide species for decades, including regulated species, although I did keep those all legal by obtaining customs import/export permits for species from other countries. I've had permits to collect livestock in restricted places as well, like National Reserves and National Parks.
Personal ethics simply must regulate what you do with them, and hopefully prevent you from trying to introduce a new species in an area it does not occur in naturally, or weaken the gene pool of closely related species by their introduction. IOW, those imported species CAN NOT ever be just released into nature and in the end must be eupanized.

Why for profit companies limit where they ship to MIGHT be because they are taking some responsibility by not shipping to places where the species they offer do not occur naturally, or have something to do with local regulations in those localities.

Larry

Sandy,
Saw your post after adding mine, so we were typing at the same time. :-)

"Legally, if you don't have a license, you shouldn't ship eggs, etc, across state lines."

Can you quote the regulations that support this comment? I certainly would like to read them. Doesn't follow my DOIUSFWSLE regulations, which I admit may be outdated. They were the US regulations back when I traded in lepidopteran livestock though, and encompass the Lacy Act, CITES, ESA, etc).

Larry

I hope y'all can find some definitive answers to this question - I've been wondering about it for years!
Sherry

The shipping of lepidopteran livestock is regulated by the USDA. The USDA recognizes 9 species that can be shipped across state lines "with the correct permit". Monarch's, Gulf Fritillary, Zebra Longwing, Red Admiral, Black Swallow, Giant Swallowtail, Mourning Cloak, Painted Lady and American Lady. Not all of these can be shipped to any state. For Instance the Monarch's that are from east of the Rockies, cannot be shipped anywhere west of the Rockies and vice versa. Zebra Longwings can only be shipped to a handful of states around the Gulf Coast and up towards the Carolina's if my memory serves correctly. Each state designates which species are indigenous to the region and allow shipping into that state. Another example...Mississippi allows all nine except the Mourning cloak to be shipped into the state. While Alaska would only allow the Mourning Cloak, Red Admiral, Painted and American Ladies.

I'm including a link to the USDA APHIS site if anyone would like more information. When I had my permits there was no cost for each permit, but that was a couple of years ago. You needed a permit for each state you are planning on shipping to.

There are other permits that include exotic species but these also require certain levels of containment and disposal. These are not as easy to acquire, and there are fines up to $250,000 for those that are found to be ignoring the restrictions.

Here is a link that might be useful: USDA Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service.

Here is the chart that shows which of the 9 species can be shipped to which state.

If you are shipping to someone within your state, no permit is needed for butterfly, pupae, larvae, or eggs.

Here is a link that might be useful: Decision Chart

Here is the quote from Shady Oak Farms:

"Yes, we call some 'breeding' butterflies and we call them 'livestock'. Remember, the USDA governs transportation of butterflies across state lines. We are not allowed to gather butterflies from the wild to ship. We MUST differentiate 'our' butterflies from those in the wild. Farmers check 'breeder' butterflies for disease via microscopes before using them for egg production. Disease in the wild is horrible. Predators and parasitoids are the inspiration for monster movie creatures."

Second quote comes from www.insectnet.com/faq.htm

Q: Do I need a permit to ship live insects, live cocoons, or live insect ova across state lines in the USA?
A:You will need a permit for each species that you want to import into your state. If you export to another state, it is the primarily the receiver's responsibility to have the permits. These kind of permits are controlled by the US Department of Agriculture (USDA). The USDA is especially concerned about interstate shipment of agricultural pests (inlcuding live millipedes) or live insects that are harmful in other ways (such as fire ants, killer bees, mosquitos, etc.). They also regulate the interstate shipment of live butterflies for ceremonial release (for weddings, etc.) And, technically, even the domestic moths and butterflies that you rear at home as a hobby come under these regulations - if you intend to export or import that livestock across state lines. The permitting process is a bit confusing but if you intend to do interstate shipping of live insects you should investigate getting the proper permits. For more information go to our USDA page. You should also know that it is illegal to ship any live insect (in any form) or live millipedes across state lines if that species is not native to the USA. No permits are granted for this, so don't even try. Fines for violations are steep.

Sandy

My ears were burning...I knew someone was taking about me!

Hello to all my old friends, and sorry about the long absence.
I made a career change that doesn't allow me much time for raising butterflies and moths anymore, and so I've had little to contribute to this forum.

I just recieved an e-mail from mccronin asking about me and so I thought I should put in an appearance.

Back on topic:
I plead guilty to having the profile mentioned. It was quite a few years ago and although there were laws regulating the shipping of some species across state lines, they were not enforced.
I had exchanged many caterpillars, eggs, cocoons and chrysalids with a few out-of-state people and all of my shipments were clearly marked with descriptions of the contents. None were ever "intercepted".
However, I can't endorse trying this now since I'm sure postal shipments are more closely scrutinized since 9/11.

Sorry about the confusion, caterwallin.

Stuart S.

...and also,
Back in 2001 I attempted to obtain permits for shipping various species, and I found that the only ones you could even apply for a permit for were the species that were already found throughout the continental U.S.

...that kinda defeats the whole purpose of trading across state borders...

Thanks for posting, Stuart. I didn't know you and I wouldn't have judged you. It's just that Cathy asked a question, and I tried to answer it.

Sandy

What does DOIUSFWSLE stand for? I am feeling rather obtuse at the moment, having one of those nights where I can't sleep because I've overdone it. Apparently last night I had major muscle spasms all night long, and DH had to retire to the sofa. Didn't keep me awake, I had taken a sleeping pill. LOL

But, back to the acronym, please decipher. I can come up with Department of Interior US. . .

Unless I'm feeling particularly cranky due to my age, I usually let people do what they want to do and don't interfere. However, I had read the same profile as Cathy and it did catch my attention. With that, I think I'd better get off the computer now before I completely lose it. As you can see, I don't get funnier when I get tireder.

Sandy

Sandy, you got part of it girl. The Department of the Interior US Fish and Wildlife Service Law Enforcement, which is part of the governing body of US Customs. They were entirely responsible for all foreign import/export permits, and if the lepidopteran species involved (including livestock) was not regulated by any of the "acts" or by local regulations in the country involved against it, they promptly approved your permit for either shipping to or receiving from said livestock from just about anywhere in the world.

If USDS APHIS regulated shipping lepidopteran livestock between the states back then it was not well known in the entire Lepidopteran community, and I highly doubt enforced by them either. There main charge is to protect plants and animals from introduced pests and their related diseases, parasites, etc. So is what's posted above fact as it pertains to Lepidoptera? Sure has lots of holes in it if so in saying only a very limited number of species can be shipped across state lines into also a very limited number of states. Most species are found in several states in this country, some in all of them, not just the few species being listed by for profit companies. Monarchs have been proven to have the exact same DNA no matter where they are from in this country. There is some concern that home raised releases do not have the internal knowledge of migrations and only succeed if they happen along with wild adults. But the Monarch release programs had no boundries back then - anybody could acquire livestock and release them regardless of what state they lived in. Add that selling lepidopteran livestock "of almost any unregulated world species" was very big in this country and other countries back then, and I find it hard to believe that APHIS can regulate all of that down to what the above says it is now. Sure I could be wrong as I have been out of the professional lepidopteran loop for many years now. But any species found naturally in both state A and state B can not be shipped between those two states legally? Hogwash.

Whew!
My own personal ethics tells me that if I'm mailing eggs from a lep that occurs in the particular state I'm sending it to or I'm receiving eggs that will become a lep native to my area, and I'm assured the recipient of the eggs has plenty of host plant for the cats, it's okay. Also, it's okay for me to send gulf frit eggs to a state that doesn't normally get them, if I have so many on my vines that the new eggs they lay (and they do) will result in cats that'll starve and the person I'm sending them to has plenty of passionvine. Gulf frits, like several other butterflies, are vigorous critters that re-establish themselves every year from points south of here by breeding their way north. When the weather gets cold enough, they die. One year when we had a particularly warm winter, some GF cats overwintered outside, then pupated in the spring, but that was the only time that's happened. I'm quite sure it's never happened in, say, Tennessee, but TN gets gulf frits every year, just later than I do.
Sherry

Larry,

After posting last night, I thought about disappearing from the forum for a while. But, I still have thoughts on the topic. The only reason I can see for not trading across statelines, is the perpetuation of diseases that might be present in certain populations. I know Cal Sherry checks all her Monarchs for OE before releasing them. I'm getting to the point where I am going to dig out my son's old microscope and start checking my Monarchs.

Last year I lost a whole generation of Monarchs to Black Death. This was before I started collecting eggs. Until that experience, I waited until I had larvae to bring in to raise. If I had shipped some of that larvae. . .

So, I don't even buy eggs or larvae anymore as I've had trouble raising them--lot's of mortality. I did furnish Monarch caterpillars to a lot of classrooms last year. But that was not very successful as a lot of the larvae died from not being cared for properly. My present policy is that I won't share any larvae or eggs unless I know the person I share with is up to the task of raising the livestock. It truly is butterfly farming. It requires a lot of the same chores as raising animals, just on a smaller scale. I don't have packaged food to feed them so I have to collect the food. I still have to "muck the stalls" so to speak. I realize you have done this a good portion of your life so you know all this. I wouldn't knowingly bring in a farm animal that was diseased. And, I've gotten very protective of the BFs I raise. And, in conclusion, this is all MHO.

Sandy

I just try to stay away from anything that might cause me to be investigated or fined. Another problem for me is the people who are licensed to release butterflies at weddings and other events in areas where that particular genus/species is either rare or non-existent.

I know some people do exchange eggs among themselves, but only those species that occur in the respective states. I believe it is due to the fact that they want to maintain some biodiversity among the same genus/species, so that the issues with inbreeding can be somewhat diluted.

Hey there, Stu! I heard you were in a band?????

Susan

Oh my, if I opened up a can of worms here, I am so sorry! I honestly didn't mean to. I just didn't want to break any law if I decide to trade eggs or cats with anyone. I don't have anything in mind right now because goodness knows there aren't many things at my place to share right now anyway...few butterflies this year, as with many people. I did want to be prepared, though, in the case I do get that chance sometime to trade. There are a few butterflies that I sure would like to get here but haven't had any luck so far.

Sandy, Little did I know that some astute person such as yourself would figure out who I was referring to with that quote. Maybe I shouldn't have quoted it, but I thought if I didn't have the exact words, someone would say that I misunderstood what the person had said about trading. PLEASE don't leave because of me! I'd really miss you and I'd feel like it's my fault because of what I said/asked. I always enjoy reading your posts!

Larry, I enjoy reading your posts too, even if I don't know those long butterfly names. ;-) Maybe I'll learn someday, but right now I'm still working on learning the plant names (well, not all of them, but ones that are mentioned a lot, especially as host plants for butterflies found in the Eastern US). I agree with you where you said that it's hogwash if people can't trade butterflies between states where a particular butterfly occurs naturally in those states. I'm still undecided about if I would have the chance to trade for something found in my state but not my county though. Even though I'd love to raise something like a Gulf Frit, I don't know if it would be responsible of me to do that knowing that there are probably few in our state, meaning that any that I release most likely won't find a mate.

Michael, I will definitely look at those websites that you gave the links for. Thank you for sharing them. I wasn't sure where to look up the information. So can I assume then that the government treats butterflies like any other animal in regards to what can be shipped where?

Sherry, I agree with you and don't see anything wrong with shipping a lep across state lines if it's found there anyway. For instance, say that I've been trying to get a certain kind of butterfly for five years with no luck and someone else is willing to send me some eggs of that kind and it naturally occurs in my state. I personally think that that should be allowed. Just like if I'd have a kind that someone else wants and occurs in his/her state, I should be able to send it to that person.

Susan, That has pretty much been my policy over the years because with the luck I have, if I'd break the law one time, those feds would be breaking down my door the next morning! lol

Stuart, Hi! I heard so many nice things about you and was wondering if you'd ever show up here. I'm glad that you posted after so long, but I do apologize for quoting your member page. I wasn't looking to get anyone in trouble or anything. If I'd be trying to get anyone in trouble, it certainly wouldn't be someone as nice as what so many people have said that you are...I'd be picking on someone who I don't like. ;-) I think I'd have to find another forum for that though because I love the people on this one. I hope that you can find the time to post more often because I feel like I missed out on a lot being that I wasn't on here in the days when you had been posting regularly. I just started raising butterflies in 2006 when I came on here asking for help when I found my first Monarch cat, and people on here were so nice that I've been on here since. :)

Thanks to everyone who replied here and sorry again if it caused any problems.

Cathy

Cathy,

This won't chase me away. I just felt so vulnerable because I expressed myself pretty plainly. If people want to trade eggs, cats, etc., that's up to them. I have never been a rat and don't plan to start! I just know what I have to do in the situation. I'm one of those that can't get away with anything either! In fact, I used to be the person everyone blamed if something went wrong, even if I didn't know what the heck happened or that I was being discussed behind closed doors! That's 'cause I was so gullible, naive, and trusting! (No survival skills.) I guess someone has to be the fall guy. One time too many and I decided to stand up and refuse to be blamed. I still didn't implicate someone else, though. But that's ancient history.

Cathy, I'm still here. I may not put my neck on the line for a while--it's feeling a little raw right now. LOL So, don't go stirring up any more controversies, you hear? ; )

Sandy

Obviously another one of those topics that is too sensitive for this forum. There was nothing wrong with asking the questions and nothing wrong with the replies they got IMO. It's called a discussion, about legalities and ethics, and one that folks can learn from. Is that not a purpose of this forum, to gain knowledge?

I can't debate current regulations and and permit procedures or legalities because I admit I am out of date on them about the last 10 years or so. But I knew them to the letter when I did lepidopteran imports and exports and the work on regulated species though, and have all my US government approved permits on file making every specimen I ever had, and those that now reside in my SC and the institutional SCs I donate some of them to 100% legal.

As for ethics, I will add that the exchanges I refer to and was part of were between professional and serious amateur lepidopterists who took the responsibility to not allow new introductions into new habitats... of a new species, a new disease or any new parasitoid, AND once the rearing project to learn or confirm new data from was completed, all livestock was euthanized, not released into nature, with the specimens put into institutional or private synoptic collections for future reference and teaching. That kiddies is part of the real world of doing lepidopteran research and so is well beyond the scope of most of the folks here who can't step on an ant. You don't have to agree with it, you don't have to like it, but that is how much of what is known about Lepidoptera was obtained by true Lepidopterists AND how much of the future new data will also be obtained. While there is certainly more Lepidopterists with institutional backing now who have the funding to travel to and do their research on a particular species home turf, it wasn't always that way, not even for professionals. Some professionals and serious amateurs without the means to travel will continue to do it as they have always had to, by bringing the livestock to them via legal permits, and then taking responsibility for them.

FWIW

Larry, thanks for sharing your side on this matter. I totally agree with what you said in your last post.

When I was in Laos, I found viable chrysalides. I was so tempted to bring them home with me. I left them in my DD's kitchen to eclose so they could see them and release them. The Hmong children, when they learned I was interested in insects, brought me all kinds of bugs to look at. I also found eggs after watching a BF lay them. Talk about a moral dilemma! But I am not a scientist, and I had no didactic purpose for bringing those eggs back with me. The temptation though was almost beyond me as I am so curious by nature. I have my pictures, though.

I have a great amount of respect for the people who have taught us so much about Lepidoptery. I understand the idea of trading for scientific purpose. I don't condone the idea of trading to raise and release NEW species into an area. It is a temptation that all of us face. I also want to add here that I can understand obtaining eggs to replenish naturally occurring species that were devastated by natural disasters.

I, too, have euthanized specimens for scientific purpose. Not for me, but for Dr. John Nelson who keeps records of all the species that occur in our area. I have no personal need for pinned specimens. But, if I encounter and/or raise a new species--which I have--he wants a record. The best way to keep a record is to keep a pinned specimen. Also, there are species that the only way to ID them is to view the genitalia under a microscope. That usually requires euthanization.

I enjoy going into museums in countries I visit and seeing the pinned specimens. Someone had to collect those BFs.

I do have two framed "Morphos" that were given to me by a woman in Guyana, SA, as a gift for presenting an educational workshop. She knew I liked butterflies and purchased them with the little money she had. Maybe they are illegal. Hadn't thought about it, but I wouldn't part with them as the words on the back are very special to me. I do know that these morphos were collected dead as the wings don't quite match! LOL

I don't have permits to trade or purchase exotic lepidoptera. I doubt that at my age, I will ever get into serious Lepidoptery where I need permits. I find going out into the field, raising livestock that appears here naturally, and learning as much as I can about the topic to be intellectually stimulating. I also like sharing with other folks about providing habitats for butterflies.
And, I enjoy discourse with knowledgeable people. In the past year, I have become part of our local group of amateur and professional leps. I appreciate that they consider me as someone who contributes to the community.

It seems that not too many people wanted to get involved in this conversation. I have found it to be stimulating. The more we have conversed, the more I have realized that we are on the same page. This happens, only through prolonged discourse. Thanks for hanging in there.

Larry, when you called me a "lepidopterist", I considered it a high honor. I have enjoyed your kidding me about my treks. I value your imput. I may find scientific names a little daunting, thus "BSese," but you have shared so much with all of us. And, I have enjoyed tossing this topic back and forth. But, discourse like this can make one feel very vulnerable. It is definitely "sticking your neck out there."

And, my last comment to Cathy about stirring up controversies was said in jest, thus the ; ).

All the above is MHO.

Sandy

None of you had better leave :)! I volunteer at a local educational butterfly house. I couldn't do what I do without your information and help.

Now, having said that, I have a little information to share. Since, as Larry sort of said, nothing wrong with a little knowledge. We only catch and raise local butterflies for our house so we can avoid the permit issue. We visited the Toledo Zoo, where they have an APHIS permit. Definately do not want to go there. They have to take extreme measures to insure that butterflies do not escape. And they only have U.S. natives.

They also raise Karner Blues in another program. One of the studies they are doing is looking at the differences genetically of the host plants in Ohio and Michigan. I have seen some abstracts that indicate that local populations of butterflies adapt to local populations of plants. It can affect the fitness of the caterpillars. However, that is probably species dependant. Especially for those species that live in microhabitats. Obviously, most seem to do fine as long as they have the correct host species.

Hope this doesn't inflame anyone. As I said before, I need the exchange of knowledge being the science geek I am!
-Elisabeth

Another example that I can think of would be as follows: You have X species around your garden, but you haven't been able to find any eggs from them. There happens to be a butterfly enthusiast 30 miles away just across the state line that has more eggs of X species than they want to raise, and would like to send you some. However, it is technically illegal to transport them across the line, even though you are so close that you could practically see the same individuals. This would be a valid argument, because, while it would be impossible to find someone 30 miles from me who lived in a different state, I do get Two-Tailed Swallowtails here, and haven't found eggs. An easy place for this to happen would be places like Kansas City. If you happened to live in Kansas City near the state line, you would have to make sure to be careful about where you get eggs from; even if you "rescued" eggs from a couple of blocks away, it could be illegal to bring them home, even though you definitely have the same population, parasites, and diseases as where you get the eggs from. For most butterflies, it would be illegal to do this, no matter how much paperwork you do. IMO, this is completely ridiculous.

Is there a way to petition the USDA?
-Jmcat

Sandy, I greatly enjoyed reading your last post. Your attitude, insight and desire to learn more has taken you well beyond a hobbyist level. With that you will have an endless new world of questions, understanding and knowledge spread before you to explore and enjoy. And that new knowledge gained will greatly benefit the Lepidopteran species you study and the folks you share it with. Joining and taking an active role in a local group of Lepidopterists will make all of that happen much faster, and is something that anybody who really wants to learn more should do.

I agree it takes strong personal ethics when you travel to foreign countries and find new to you species just begging to be reared and studied. They are not a problem on longer stays as you could do so while there even in your hotel room. But when its time to come back home and you still have livestock in tow is when "that" decision raises its ugly head. Unfortunately I know of even professional Lepidopterists who have stowed away livestock to bring home, and gotten away with it. That is nothing but laziness on their part because it is just not that hard to do so legally usually if you know the regulations of the country you are in and those of US Customs. Naturally, any livestock brought home must be eventually euthanized rather than released, so doing your studies, making written notes and taking lots of pictures while there on the leps home turf is easily the best choice for anyone but serious Lepidopterists who have a valid need for reference material brought back home.

As for your Morphos, technically to be legally in this country, even dead, dried specimens should be under a US import permit, including those specimens incorporated into native art. However, few foreign countries bother to regulate Lepidoptera at all, and US Customs rarely enforces the regs for Lepidopteran art even if caught when coming home and going through customs with them. They have bigger fish to fry, so I would not worry about them at all. Individual specimens for scientific research are a different story, and should ALWAYS be under permit.

I got a chuckle out of your comment that I was from the "other side". There is no doubt at all that I am on the other side from what is the norm here on this forum, and I am not offended by your comment at all. Being from the dark side does make posting here quite difficult for me usually though. My intent in being here at all is to offer some of the perspectives from that side as well as the much deeper knowledge gained from being a part of it while trying not to offend the many folks here who seem to be so easily offended. Its really a balancing act for me that often leaves me biting my tongue and not replying to some threads at all, only giving partial answers to others and rarely posting what the stark truth is because many here simply couldnt handle it. I know Im not always successful even though I do put a lot of thought into my posts. So I am sure I do offend some folks and can only hope that doesnt cause anyone to stop posting. Hopefully it will all come out OK in the wash. If not I can always find something else to do with my time, and Id much rather do that than run anyone off this forum.

------

APHIS

This APHIS thing has left me really perplexed. Mainly because I do not fully understand what drives it as it pertains to Lepidoptera I guess. On the cover, as it applies to Lepidoptera, it looks like total foolishness right out of the bleeding heart liberal La La Land and regulations that I would personally fight. I always took Lepidopteran regulations very serious when I was actively studying Lepidoptera, not so much because of the legalities but mostly because of personal ethics AND believing they had a valid purpose. I was very well versed on all of those regulations, stayed current on them and ALWAYS obtained permits when required. But trust me, I did serious knock-down dragout battles with US Customs more than once over them because I was right and could prove it and they were wrong. So I plan to do some heavy research into APHIS, eventually to the point of calling their contact person for a discussion to get to the bottom of it. Its probably pretty certain that I wont agree with it entirely as most of the regulations on Lepidoptera are full of holes with real world reality commonly left out. But the last thing we want to do on this forum is give people bad information, especially information that involves legalities. Then each can decide for themselves how they will follow the regulations. Will take some time with the health issues looming, but when I fully understand it Ill post the findings on the forum so hopefully we will all understand it in laymans terms.

Larry

Larry;
You are probably familliar with this organization, The Sonoran Arthropod Studies Institute. They have a conference every year for invertebrates in captivity. They have the guru of APHIS come and talk once in a while. Here is his abstract from 2006 so you can get his name and contact him.

Chrysalis Parasitoids and Disease Trends -Year 4: Interpreting Worldwide Data for Farm Raised Butterflies.

Wayne Wehling, USDA APHIS PPQ

The USDAs Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service requires butterfly house exhibits showing exotic butterflies to submit annual reports for imported pupae. The report is expected to detail by supplier and species the number of pupae received, the number producing healthy butterflies, and the disposition for all others. These data place APHIS in a unique position for asking questions about this fascinating industry. This is the 4th year for summarizing these data. Who is the biggest, smallest, best, or worst? Are there any trends in the industry?

- Elisabeth

I know a person that just left today for a national invertebrate conference. He told me there would be a lot of talk about butterflies. When he gets back, I'll have some questions for him.

Sandy

Sandy,

I'd be curious what he has to say about butterfly numbers and the health of American habitats.

Jeff

Thanks Elizabeth. I already have that gentlemans phone number written down as the APHIS contact person and he is who I had already planned to call after I've had time to peruse their website completely.

Strong control of the butterfly houses that rear and exhibit foreign species and the researchers that rear them not only makes sense, but I believe is very necessary. So is control to prevent the spread of pests and disease no matter in what form. But strong control over local Lepidopteran species, especially between states where they occur naturally is not. That's just Big Brother flexing muscles he has no moral or ethical right to flex in my opinion.

I have attended Lepidopteran conferances, and they are not for the layman for the most part who does not know taxonomy. That get pretty deep and involved and mostly are very scientific. But they are the way to get current on what has changed and what is happening in this field.