The Violets just arent sturdy -their natural habitat isnt extreme and being highly bred adds to that. I think you would have better success with clay pots and extra grainy soils mix.
Somehow,someway thats whats kept one we have on the windowsill alive pushing four years. And it blooms.

C&S have the ability to capture & store water efficiently because they often are native to harsh dry environments.
Anyways, I don't worry too much about my C&S and water. I water about once every week when they're outside and growing in sunshine. When I put them inside for this Winter (November to (they go out in) April), I think I have spritzed them one time over those 5 months that they were inside.

Alright, that's reassuring to hear.

"When I put them inside for this Winter (November to (they go out in) April), I think I have spritzed them one time over those 5 months that they were inside."

In the winter, I don't really water unless it looks like they're really drying out. So, slight shriveling, feeling a bit softer, stuff like that.

Which does pretty much work out to be once during the entire five month period, although some I water less (mostly the cacti. They either don't show signs of water loss or, if they do, I've heard you still shouldn't water things like gymnocalyciums and astrophytums in the winter and that shrinkage is normal) and some I water more (The austrocylindropuntia never really went dormant for some reason. Same for a few of the Euphorbias. Some of my echeverias get fairly regular, though not exactly frequent, watering, too, as does the anacampseros).

Mostly I water if it looks like they need it and otherwise don't. Does that sound about right?

No, I wouldn't go by that personally, tho' I grow different succulents than you do.

I grow indoors in NYC & I water my succulents about once every week or every 10 days. I judge by the weight of the pot or the look/feel of the plants. I don't wait for them to shrivel, I think (IME) that's going too far.

It's in the nature of succs to be able to store water in their stems, leaves &/or roots. That's what makes them succulents, by definition.

AVs on the other hand (from what I've read) in nature would grow as ground cover. That said, I imagine they can always draw up a bit of moisture from the ground under them. Not true in pots (tho' I'm only OK w/ AVs & good w/ succs), I wouldn't let my AVs go w/out water more than 5 days, they're not rugged sturdy plants like succs, seem on the delicate side actually.

Mine are on a counter in a south room with lots of sunlight, and there's a heat vent on the ceiling above them, but not blowing directly on the plants.

So I water mine once a week because the leaves start to soften. That's the only way I can tell if they need water, even though I've read they can go a month without it during the winter.

I also have a Haworthia Retusa and the directions says not to let it dry out. C & S's are finicky creatures!

"I don't wait for them to shrivel, I think (IME) that's going too far."

Okay, that was probably an overstatement. I meant more like slight wrinkles in the surface of the plant. Not, say, complete dessication like you see in nature sometimes. I am curious, though, what kind of succulents you're growing.

One of things that happens in a pot where roots are confined is that an extended dry period ends up killing fine roots and root tips, whose function is to absorb water. Then, when the plant looks thirsty, you try to water but in reality the plant cannot absorb the water and instead there are dead roots sitting in moist soil. The weakened plant then succumbs to fungal rot.

On a warm, sunny and/ or windy day the soil mix in a pot dries out much faster than the same soil in the ground. Drainage in a pot is also generally not as good as in the ground. Soil temperatures are unfavorably higher in a pot than in the ground. Everything is working against what's best for the plant.

One needs to understand all these things and formulate a plan that works for a particular species in your growing conditions. Soil mixes can be tinkered and watering adjusted to keep the root zone in good shape. There are too many strategies to discuss but until the grower develops a grasp for these and other concepts, the end result will continue to be disappointment.

It's generally a mistake to let a potted plant get bone dry, no matter how 'sensitive' the plant is. That is a very stressful situation for the plant. Succulents are so well adapted that they can tolerate these abuses for some time. Then, all of a sudden a plant rots, leaving the grower to wonder what happened. And the blame is usually made on an overwatering.

The truth is that 1 or even 2 untimely waterings should not harm a healthy plant. A weak plant can suffer.

I realize this post seems vague but it is impossible to give details for such a broad topic. One piece of advice I can provide is to learn how to incorporate some sort of clay (ultra fine soil particles) component into succulent potting mixes. Clayey soil from the garden could work. As does Turface, a calcined clay product. Clay has excellent water retentive properties. During times of drought, the clay component of soil mixes can hold onto just enough moisture to keep rootlets alive.

Excellent porosity and aeration is also critical. You should comfortably be able to water any succulent in a pot so that excess drains out the bottom, without fear of a wet soil. If your mix is such that you only water a little at a time because you're afraid that the soil will be too wet, then you need to come up with a new formula.

Bonsai enthusiasts are among the most knowledgeable gardeners when it comes to understanding soil physics. There is loads of good information available online and on these forums.

x

I guess there's a lot of misinformation floating around. Cactus Art's general information, for instance, is to water cacti regularly in the summer and to keep almost dry in the winter (although there are exceptions they mention). I heard similar advice elsewhere -- even from people here -- and generally went with it, because it made sense to me. I mean, it seems like that's not really the case, and I'm not surprised, but now I'm just more confused than anything.

"One of things that happens in a pot where roots are confined is that an extended dry period ends up killing fine roots and root tips, whose function is to absorb water. Then, when the plant looks thirsty, you try to water but in reality the plant cannot absorb the water and instead there are dead roots sitting in moist soil. The weakened plant then succumbs to fungal rot. "

That's what I assumed. As I said, I don't typically let my non-succulents dry out that much (intentionally, in any case) and water pretty much whenever the pot feels light, which is typically once a week this time of year, and potentially a lot more when they're outside in the summer. So, this isn't really a phenomenon I've witnessed much personally.

And a constructive, follow-up question I never thought to ask before:

Since I've apparently been underwatering my plants, what steps should I take to ensure that when I start watering them again, I don't cause root rot? Obviously making sure they're in a well-draining substrate is a big part of it (and I'm pretty sure most of them are*) but what else?

* The ones I potted up could probably be improved, though. I don't really have access to decent garden centers, so getting stuff like clay chips and turface and whatever else that'd be *really good* to use isn't exactly easy. I DID get a bag of cacti and succulent mix from somewhere, except that was incredibly heavy. Mostly I've been using something that's mostly bark and perlite, with varying small amounts of peat, vermiculite, and coarser rocks/small gravel added in whenever it's available. It's probably not optimal and I tend to think it's still a little too heavy, but water does soak in pretty fast and drain out quickly. Also, in terms of maintaining individual particles instead of turning into a solid clump of dirt, it... does tend to remain fairly non-clumping.

See now, I find your post very interesting amccour. I've never rotted out a plant by letting them get too dry and then giving water, and I'm an avid underwaterer.

In winter I only water my cacti and succs every couple of months. However what happened to me this year was, as most of my cacti and succs are new babies and this was their first winter with me, they all got mealies, dead leaves, and pretty much went to H E double hocky stick in a handbasket.

But in the summer last year when they were getting ample water they were happy as clams. Did the decrease in water stress them so bad they became bug magnets? Stereotypically I thought they like to be dry so why should this stress them out so? And only the succulents were affected, no cacti. So do maybe baby succs not like being as dry as adults?

Sorry to add a question to your thread. It just got me thinking.

"I guess there's a lot of misinformation floating around."

Depends on how you define "misinformation". Leaving the cacti dry during winter is common practice at least in Europe, and used successfully by growers much more skilled than me. Might depend on your local climate too. I don't intend to water my cacti when the temperature is around freezing (there are a few exceptions). But if you find the right combination of soil, temperature and water to keep the roots alive without causing the plants to grow (and etioliate) or rot, then go ahead and use it.

If kept dry it is important to start watering carefully in spring - only a little to start with, and then gradually increase the amount. Many growers start by just misting the plants now and then in early spring.

Some cacti are extra sensitive and can lose their roots if left dry for a long period. I keep those warmer than the rest and water them occasionally in winter too.

"Depends on how you define "misinformation"."

Yeah, sorry. I think conflicting information would have been a better term to use.

"If kept dry it is important to start watering carefully in spring - only a little to start with, and then gradually increase the amount. Many growers start by just misting the plants now and then in early spring. "

That sounds reasonable. Considering I did keep them dry, would this be the time to start misting/giving small amounts of water, or should I wait till I can move them outside?

I should've added that in Winter my C&S are kept in an unheated shed. There's a window for some light, but no heat source. They sleep deeply. I do lose a few plants each Winter (maybe 2 out of a hundred), but my method seems to work pretty well for Northern CA.

AMC, I think some of these instructions are crazy.

Oakley (I think) said their Haworthia retusa warned to never let it go dry? Nonsense, Haws NEED to dry out a bit btwn waterings; don't know what these folks are thinking (Haws were some of my first succulents).

Something's getting lost here Oakley 'cause by & large succulents are NOT fussy plants at all. Once one understands their mixes & watering needs, they're rather low maintenance plants (that's why I grow them, that & a hot aptmt w/out a/c).

Hi AMC,

I write now from work, can check further at home on wknd, but broadly speaking, I grow: Crassulacea (Graptopetalum paraguense, couple of different Crassulas & some Kalanchoes), Haworthias, Gasterias, Aloes, 3 Euphorbia milii varieties, Euph francoisii, some Begonias, a Spider plant, a couple of Epis, some CC & my beloved Hoyas (epiphyte really, not really or maybe semi-succulents).

If you are unsure about the condition of the rootlets after a long drought, make sure to water lightly in the spring only after you see visible signs of new growth. With succulents, it means new leaves. With cacti, the growth point gets brighter in color. Then water lightly again maybe 10 days later if the weather is good. After about a month or so of new growth, any plant that has lost its rootlets should be well on its way with new roots.

By the way amccour, Vermiculite after a few years +/- breaks down into its clay components, but I don't know how one would predictably use that knowledge when composing a soil mix.

Information is not usually intended to be misleading, its just that there are so many variables that it is impossible to give absolute rules in horticulture.

As the saying goes, YMMV...your mileage may vary

x

Hm. Might you have any advice on getting my huernia to reroot? It fell apart on me last year because I didn't really know what I was doing, though I saved some of the branches. They're putting out new growth, except they still lack roots, so I'm not really sure what to do about that.

Otherwise, I'll take your advice about waiting for new growth. The only thing that's really in leaf or growing right now is the monadenium, though.

To Pirate Girl: I've been watering my crassulaceae about once every other week. As I said I generally wait for the leaves to get a little soft, although you made it sound like I might want to water before that happens.

I do think I've been keeping my aloe-related plants too dry, though. In one case it was sort of necessary because it was one of those drainage-less planters from Lowes that I got as a christmas present and I haven't really been able to repot it for weather concerns. I think I'd been going mostly by what I saw on the crassulaceae -- waiting till the leaves got a little soft (not shriveled or mushy or really wilted. Just when a loss of turgor pressure was noticeable).

Huernia and other Stapeliads will re-root from stem segments pretty easily, just lay them on top of the soil and eventually new roots will form.

Warmth and humidity will do the trick. If it is not warm or humid enough, then the stem segment may just dry out before it has had a chance to root. Mid-summer is the perfect time.

x

Okay, so one of the euphorbias I got at the C&S show last week is starting to put out flowers and some new growth, and the potting medium was dry, so I lightly watered it.

Anyway, this actually leads me to another point. I remember reading a few sites suggesting that you use a small amount of topsoil instead of a small amount of peat in cacti and succulent potting mix because it tends to be fairly loamy and a lot easier to re-wet than peat, which I tend to believe because peat is terrible to re-wet. However, I kind of assumed that topsoil would be too heavy for most container plants. Then again, if it's in a fairly small amount in proportion to perlite/pumice/bark and the soil is still relatively airy and fast draining, maybe not.

What made me think of this again is that, when I watered the euphorbia in question, the moistened soil DID have a distinctly topsoilish smell to it, and the mix the C&S society guys have their stuff potted in seems to be fairly fast draining. Also, C&S Society, so I figured they'd know their stuff.

I think you also mentioned adding clay into the mix earlier (though I'm not sure if you meant clay-based soil or clay chips/balls). Anyway, a (small) amount of topsoil seems like it could work for this, although, as I said, I'd be concerned that it'd still potential be heavy or prone to caking.

Any thoughts on that?

Yes, topsoil in small amounts works nicely. There is a clay/ loam component to it which could be beneficial as long as the rest of the mix has coarse substrates.

It may require some experimentation to figure out how to adjust your watering scheme. Adding topsoil or garden loam will make the potting mix more water retentive, which helps sustain rootlets but can be disastrous if there is too much.

For starters, maybe try for not more than about 10-15% of the total volume.

Some genera, like the Mesembs (Lithops, Argyroderma, etc.), prefer a dense mix, in my experience. I personally use up to a third of plain old garden soil in their pots.

x

AMC,

I don't know which Euphorbia you mean, but it in the Milii group, they can take A LOT of water, deceptively so; no small sips for them.

Being paranoid about rotting succulent plants is good, and normal.

In this thread from a few months back you will find the precise time to wait before watering succulents:

I have a watering question for succulents?

The short answer is: It depends.

Understanding why will prevent rotting of any species. ;)

Brad

The prime directive:

When in doubt, don't!

This axiom is true for watering, trimming, repotting, fertilizing, etc. Take no action unless the plant will suffer because of your neglect.

These things are generally true for succulents, but not African Violets:

Water when dry in the growing season(s). Leave dry when dormant.

Knowing your plant is the key. So are things only you can know: local conditions, season, potting materials, when you last watered, or it rained, etc.

Practice benign neglect.

Most succulents do better without your attention. Another day, or week, or month of neglect will probably not kill them. Constant fussing certainly will. Letting plants dry out completely is what killed my African Violets many years ago. I panicked, and watered thoroughly. They died surprisingly quickly. I switched to growing succulents because they have better flowers, and are much more tolerant of procrastination. :)

Brad

"I don't know which Euphorbia you mean, but it in the Milii group, they can take A LOT of water, deceptively so; no small sips for them."

This is a... Euphorbia viguieri or something. Also I was under the impression that E. Millii was less succulent than, say, E. lactea or something.

Actually, that reminds me. I got conflicting information on whether or not Alluaudias are actually succulent or not. Some source say yes, whereas some say they're not really succulent and just cope with extended drought by really pronounced dormancy. As far as I can gather, they can take a lot of water when they're actively growing, in any case, and most of the places I've seen have said to keep them dry in winter.

Anyway, I'll check out that link. I'm sure every question I already asked was already answered there, and I'm going to end up with egg on my face :)

I am a bit paranoid about rotting some of my plants also. Euphorbia milii was mentioned. I took a total of six crown of thorns cuttings from two different visits to Florida beginning 2 years ago. Half I kept alive, but half started to root and then rotted. I had a crown of thorns for 20 years from a cutting previous to this, but when I moved, I discarded the plant and took cuttings, none of which rooted, to my dismay.

Brad's advice is on the mark. There are so many variables to be aware of. For example, the humidity inside one's house or apartment has a great effect on the health of one's plants. It's a non-stop learning experience.

Christopher

I've been doing some research about the various plants I grow. While I'm not really looking at hard and fast rules, I think I've seen a couple trends come up:

1. Euphorbias, it seems like, generally need some winter watering. How *much* varies by plants, but it sounds like they can take more than I've been giving them.

2. Geophytic cacti sound like they need to stay very dry in the winter.

3. With the exception of caput-medusae (which I don't grow), it sounds like Astrophytums do to.

4. Things with large tubercles, such as Leuchtenbergias and certain Mammillarias and the afforementioned Astrophytum caput-medusae, sound like they need *more* winter watering than some cacti, which makes sense since they'd have more surface area. In the case of the Leuchtenbergia, it sounds like being kept to dry causes tubercle yellowing and possibly drop.

5. Also under the impression that tuberous cacti/cacti that act like root succulents also need to be kept dryer in the winter.

I'm also assuming that smaller succulents (As in, stem succulents with narrower stems) would need more water since they've got less mass in which to store water.

In the ballpark? Completely off-base?

*SIGH* will one of you people come to my house and look at all my plants and then perhaps make an Excel spreadsheet or even just a venn diagram or bubble graph to show me when to water which plants? ;-)

I'm so glad I found this forum. . . altho I often come away more bewildered than when I arrived. HOWEVER, my plant attrition rate seems much lower now that I've started reading the wealth of information here.