What's with this "us" and "them" stuff?? I'm a member of DG and a contributor/user of GW. If I want to use/contribute to both sites, I'm perfectly entitled to do that. If some of what I use/contribute is found on both sites, that should be fine.

OK
All those DGs that want to come over to OUR site and muck it up are free to leave now.
Winter Sowing has been around for many years.
Trudi's "method" was started in 2001.
By the way there is no place on the internet with more information on winter sowing.
Good luck with YOUR database
Ron

I have been a member of GW for 5 years. I have Wintersown for 4 years. Trudi, did you really put mistakes in the database?

Thanks,
Necia

Anyone need seeds?

Darn those folks can't read

Well, let's just wait this out. It's apparent that some are worked up without thinking this through first. Loyalties are something we feel as they do, just as everyone does. When the problems that caused this come to light I'm sure the situation will tone down.

Posters at DG have often used information copied and psted from WinterSown.Org at their site and I have never had a problem with that because they are using my own work. Our database has been compiled by many people here and I could not in good conscience say "okay, you can take it". WSEO has a policy on the front page of allowing information on the site to be used for non-profit or educational purposes, but technically DG is a .com and the information has been harvested by his posters to benefit the poster on his site.

I emailed Dave that I it can remain there, but he needs to be aware that his posters have copy and pasted onto his site info from WinterSown.Org. I don't think he was aware of this in the past.

T

I am not a member of dave's garden (first saw that before coming to this - but you have to pay and I didn't want to pay at the time). But I have used it for reference... so explain to me what is going on? Is someone copying and pasting from this forum? I am confused. If I ever did decide to join Dave's Garden as an official member, (but didn't contribute any info from this site), is that okay?

I am confused. I have no intentions of going anywhere, but want to know what happened. Also, can't "Dave" himself get into all of Trudi's information and even though it's stealing, copy and paste it himself, rather than a member doing it? I am confused.

I need to re-read all of these posts to understand, unless someone can tell me in simple words what this person did. Are we allowed to talk about wintersowing at another forum - using that phrase? Passing the word about its effectiveness with of course mentioning "thanks to Trudi Davidoff"??? I want to know the limits of any conversations I may have elsewhere, although I have no intentions to be active anywhere else.

Thanks - Carrie

How about this:

I (to the extent anyone cares what I think) challenge you guys at DG to come up with a fantastic, comprehensive database that will provide gardeners with information for years to come. I sincerely mean this. I have viewed some of your material in the past and found it useful and helpful. Do it again.

We have our projects; let's see yours!

This thread is just not right on so many levels, I don't know where to start. So I will start with how this effects me as a gardener who in the past has enjoyed talking to other gardeners online. I don't enjoy this at all. The conflict does not promote a feeling of community or warm and fuzzy feelings that you can't wait to just get online and talk to others. I try very hard to keep my posts polite and as friendly as possible. When I see a thread like this, the only thing positive it gives me, is a reminder of how easily an online conversation can go downhill and bring out the worst in people. I wonder if the anonymity of the internet fools people into speaking impulsively with less caution? I am sure I have responded on a thread without thinking long enough about what I was going to say. We are all guilty of it at one time or another. Maybe a reminder of how easily a person's posts can be misunderstood, since we don't know the person we are speaking with well, there is no body language or facial expression to go along with it and haven't we all read articles about how high a percentage of what we interpret in a conversation is the body language and facial expression? I would also be willing to bet that there isn't one person on GW or DG who has not posted a response to a thread and got a response back that completely misinterpreted what you 'meant' to say or thought you were saying, isn't that right? I have had it happen to me a few times. Enough to know that if you really want to be fair, you have to try not to read into things and ask for clarification before you blast someone...and really blasting people online seems to me to rarely be called for...and even when called for, it can be done with respect.

Garden Web, Dave's Garden.....I have belonged to both sites. People are people where ever you go. I have enjoyed conversations on both sites, I have seen problems on both sites. GW and DG offer different benefits and formats. I think that is great. We all benefit when there are choices, because we are all different and who would be happy with all vanilla ice cream and no choices? There is nothing essentially wrong with either site, but they both have potential and to my viewpoint, inevitable problems...people problems. Communication problems. Respect problems. Everyone should be looking at themselves and measuring whether they are behaving in a way that they think promotes respect and good communication and tolerance and wanting to spend time together talking about gardening. Because really these gardening sites are only as good as what we make them. There is going to be disagreement...of course there is. It takes a lot of work to disagree constructively and respectfully. You can't beat other people over the head with your opinions. It does no one any good to call names...especially the one calling the names. And have you ever been on the receiving end of one of these personal attacks in a 'public' forum? It can definitely test your patience and tolerance quota for the week, let alone the day.

Maybe this discussion needs to continue to work some things out, but if it is just going to be more name calling then it is a waste of a good opportunity to resolve something in a good way. I am now jumping in here to say in a most respectful way, that I think there is what started out as a big misunderstanding that has been over reacted too and brought onto a 'public' forum when it should have been between the parties concerned. Yes, perhaps there was a need for the WS forum members to be consulted about how they felt about what was 'perceived' as an effort to copy the WS database, but that was where it should have stopped. There was no need for dragging personal correspondence with someone's full name onto a thread for everyone to read, without that person's permission. That was crossing the line and very disrespectful...which is ironic since the reason stated for doing so, was to show how disrespectful someone else was.

Let me back up here for a minute. I have not heard anyone on this thread acknowledge the unbelievable amount of passion, hard work, organization, generosity and time spent accumulating, experimenting, getting the kinks out, holding of hands, promoting and getting the word out about winter sowing that Trudi has done. No one on GW or DG would be winter sowing or would have a data base to argue over if it wasn't for Trudi. I don't care how many people's grandmother's winter sowed in some form or another. Trudi has never claimed that she invented winter sowing. So I don't know why people keep charging that to her account. She has this huge body of work that she has spent what....the past 7 years of her life working on. She came here and shared her passion and her seeds and her knowledge and didn't ask for anything in return. She could have created a 'for profit' website, I suppose and had herself a nice little business with it all.

Seeing as that is true, I do not find it difficult to understand why she might have gotten a little bit unhappy about the thought of what she 'perceived' as someone telling her that another garden website was hoping they could reproduce all the winter sowing information that she was responsible for and/or all the data base information that all the members of the GW Winter Sowing forum were responsible for creating. And I don't see where it is arrogant of her at all, to express that if Dave's Garden wanted to ask about the WSowing forum information available here that it makes perfect sense, that the owner of DG would have discussed the subject with Trudi or GW.

Yes, there has been a very unfortunate tone used on both sides...and a lack of respect on both sides. Feelings have been hurt and understandably so. Someone mentioned their 'right' to speak....I ask that everyone involved remember no rights come without corresponding 'responsibilities'. We have the right to speak, but we have the responsibility to be respectful, tolerant, long suffering, patient, and certainly a little kindness goes a long way.

So can we please resolve this and be finished with it, keeping that in mind? Not only for the sake of those involved, but please think about all the members of both GW and DG that would like to feel happy to come here to these forums and happy to go to either one, without wondering if there is some leftover animosity aimed at them because of this misunderstanding.

Aside from the personal insults going back and forth that I think should be resolved privately, I personally would like to understand two things....one, what exactly is the intention of Dave's Garden as far as Winter Sowing goes? Are they creating their own forum on the subject? Are they trying to create a database of information like the one that Trudi has created here at GW? Are they planning to create it based on their own experiences with winter sowing, or are they using Trudi's experiences or the GW forum member's experiences?

Secondly, about the question of whether the database of winter sowing information is correct or not, for everyone's sakes, let's be clear on this. I have had a couple of people offline already mention to me that they are now wondering if there is information that cannot be relied on in it. Personally, I think this has also possibly been misunderstood. I did not hear Trudi say that she deliberately created information that was inaccurate for people to follow in the WS information. I didn't really understand what she meant, but in giving her the benefit of the doubt, I thought it might simply be some sort of coded identifying information in order for her to identify her own material. She did say that it is a common business practice and that could be true. It is outside of my own frame of reference, so I cannot say. As far as the information being reliable...we all have had unlimited success following all the directions that Trudi has put forth in her material, so, unless someone has run into a problem that I am unaware of...I am crossing this concern off my list. I can think of a couple of reasons that Trudi would not want to clarify that, so for me,I am leaving it with her. I have already used all the information on winter sowing that I have found through this GW forum and thanks to many people who generously helped me learn to winter sow and shared seeds with me, including Trudi. I am very grateful to Trudi for all the work she has done, because if it were not for her 7 years of effort in experimenting and refining the methods, getting the word out, lending support and sharing seeds, etc etc...I probably would never have even heard of winter sowing! I have had a lot of fun and it has been one of the more exciting aspects of gardening for me in the past three years. So let's give credit where credit is due. Is Trudi perfect? No, and neither are any of us here.

pm2

PrairieMoon,

I thank you for your eloquent post. I don't think any of us could come up with better words than you. You have always had a great tone in your posts, you are encouraging and generous with your ideas and kind words to beginners and experienced WSers alike.

The database is accurate for yes/no content based on the information that was supplied to it in the past.

There are no 'bananas' in zone 3, lol ;-)

T

prairiemoon2

AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

First of all I would like to state that I am a newbie and I don't know if my opinion counts, but I would like to have a say. My biggest problem is that DG should not have even thought about their "own" database, out of respect he should automatically referred people to Trudi's site or here. Copyright or not, that would have been the appropriate thing to do. I feel that DG is trying to up their membership or hits to their website by offering something more. (I personally find it hard to believe that this is not the intention of DG).
Second, I have been to the DG website a few times and have not really found what I was looking for. Everytime I do a plant search I get the Vendor info. I hate that. If I need a picture or info I like some of the plant societies listed on the web and also GW. I have never had much luck with DG. I also don't like the idea of a site I have to pay for, I can get that from the NGA. I will stick with GW, Trudi's site, USDA, and some of the other free sites if I need information.

Thanks for listening

Rhonda

As a member of both DG and GW, I have to
say that I do not intend to divorce one or
the other. While I've been pretty active on
one, I still enjoy popping back over to the
other from time to time to say hello to everyone,
strike up a few old chords and talk trash. Garden
Junk. Trash to Treasure. Whatever.
Depends on my mood. I enjoy both sites.

Knowing that high emotions are present for many,
I have to say I'm very disappointed to see how
conversation has turned into confrontation.

However, I'm still stretching out my hand with
a plate full of brownies for all on both sides.

Who's next?

:-) Karen Marie

YUM! Sounds great. I'll whip up a batch of brew and pour.

Who wants some?

mmmm.....brownies!:)

with a scoop of ice cream on top...

I have a recipe for making the most fabulous diet "glop" you have ever had...creamy yum and sorta-kinda healthy, it would be good with th0se brownies chopped up and stirred into it.

Take a 32 ounce container of fat-free plain yogurt.
Beat in 2 small boxes of sugar-free instant vanilla pudding.

Wait 30 seconds and dig in (this glop thickens immediately.) You'll find it tastes a lot like cheesecake. I had some for lunch with cling peaches. Yummy!

Okay, I'll play. Has anyone had the White Chocolate, sugar-free jello pudding? Make it with heavy whipping cream and it is a delicious, carb-free treat!

Brownies are still better, though!

Necia

... I am still wondering what seeds bakemom is offering.... LOL

Carrie

She has a thread started on the WS exchange page. She is offering seeds for newbies and oldies, too! Go check it out!

Necia

...(I was kidding), It was a follow-up on her post within this thread to lighten us all up - She's a gem!

Carrie

Gramma has a recipe for "Chocolate Death" cake ,it is completely vegan and so rich one bite can cure a chocolate craving,if any one is interested let me know and I will gladly pass it on! :)

Wuvie, you are proof that you catch more flies with honey than vinegar : )

I want to thank PM2 for her beautifully worded post, which I hope people will take to heart.

It's funny, I didn't even know that there were forums at DG, even though I've used the Watchdog and Plantfiles many times. Hopefully, the small sample of posters here from DG, is not representative of the group as a whole, as I am not enticed to join based on this thread.

I won't address the whole "database saga" as I am weary of it, but I will say that other than this thread, I have never heard an unkind word spoken on this forum. Not only have I learned a tremendous amount from Trudi, and all of the other folks here, I am also thankful for the encouragement and generosity I have found here.

Somebody pass me a brownie, please!!!

Bonnie

Uhhhh, Sorry Carrie! I am so tired, and can't even type!

Necia

Ah, now this is much better.
I'll even wash the dishes! ;-)

Heading off for bed. Take care, all.

KM

Ok Trudi has asked me to post the recipe for all of you to see! :) So here it goes:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Vegan Chocolate Death Cake~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
*4 1/2 c. all purpose flour
*3 c. sugar
*1 c. cocoa powder
*1 tbs.baking soda
*2 tsp. salt
*1 1/2 c. vegetable oil
*2 tbs. pure vanilla extract
*3 c. strong brew coffee
*1/4 c. cider viniger
~Heat oven to 350.
~Grease 3, 9 inch round cake pans,dust with flour & line bottom with wax paper.
~Sift together dry ingredients in a large bowl.(Not coffee)
~Add oil & Vanilla extract.
~With electric mixer on low speed blend until well combined.
~With mixer on medium speed,gradualy blend in coffee.
~When mix is smooth,add vinegar & blend on low speed until combined.
~ Divide batter into pans
~ Bake 20-25 minutes or until knife/toothpick comes out clean.
~Remove from oven & cool 15-20 minutes on wire rack.
~ Cool completely before icing.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Icing Recipe~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
*1, 12 oz. pack of silkin firm tofu
*3 c.,semi-sweet chocolate chips
~Drain Tofu
~Crush Tofu and place in medium saucepan with chocolate chips.
~Stir together over medium heat until chocolate is soft.
~ Put in blender & puree until blended
~Cool to spreadable consistency
~ Frost between layers,top and sides of cake

Enjoy! :)

Prairiemoon....finally, words of wisdom!

I've really been trying to keep out of this, but I can't any longer. Who cares about this copyright thing! But seriously copyright protection would only be infringed on IF the work is a spitting copy of the first. Under no circumstance can facts be copyrighted, BUT if for example the work of another was NOT re-formated creatively AND with original thoughts (with YOUR OWN WORDS) then that IS infringement.
What it would all come down to is just plain ol' bad etiquette...bad manners. Friends are just not to be made like this! There's got to be a solution that will make both parties (and all concerned) satisfied.

Vera

Here is a link that might be useful: Copyright and Fair Laws-Overview

Awesome! Slurp! I like that the recipe seems to be easily cut down if you wanted only one or two layers. My family would want all three every time!

Thank you for sharing, the next time I have to make a chocolate cake I will try your grandma's recipe.

If you like egg-free cake recipes there's a yummy cake that I've made very often..sometimes SunMaid puts it on the back of their large raisin tub. Its called Depression Cake because the recipe was developed when people didn't have the money for butter or eggs. I'll paste in the link, it's such a fine recipe that I've got it bookmarked.

Here is a link that might be useful: Depression Cake

Thanks Trudi! Gramma prefers these types of recipes,she really watches her cholesteral and fat intake.I think she will like the Depression Cake recipe ,that is if she doesnt already have it some where amongst her 1000+ recipes...lol!
I saved it for her and will print it out and see if I can get her to make it for the Holidays! :)Thanks again,and please keep Gramma in your prayers she will be having surgery in the next couple weeks.
I just love the way a disagreement can turn into a nice discussion on brownies and cakes! :) It's much better this way! :)
Hey...one more thing....how many people either ate brownies last night or are making them today? I would fall into the latter part of the question...lol

Everything always comes back to food, lol.

If grandma makes this in a large shallow pan the cake can be dusted with powdered sugar and used like bars for a nice go-with for coffee.

I like the way you think Trudi!...lol..That idea is probably going to become reality here,real soon! :)

Great post, prairie - You sure did straighten out my question about what this was all about...

I never doubted that any information was incorrect, so I never gave THAT another thought. So glad you pointed that out to those who might have wondered. Thanks for such a considerate and wise post.

Carrie

Agirlsgirl, no brownies, but I DID eat some Pumpkin Chip cookies, made from my not so little 'Jack B. Little' pumpkins!

Bonnie

Mmmmmm...those sound good...maybe you could share the recipe? :)

Sure thing! The recipe came from Taste of Home. It calls for chocolate chips, but I like to use butterscotch chips instead. I also add a teaspoon of pumpkin pie spice. If you want to make it a bit healthier, you could sub craisins for the chips. I feel I must warn you though, that the recipe uses a whole cup of butter, so not exactly lowfat, LOL.

Bonnie

Here is a link that might be useful: Pumpkin Chocolate Chip Cookie recipe

"I have made deliberate mistakes in our database and I will continue to do so..."

I am horrified that deliberate mistakes have been planted in the database; that is inexcusable and terribly unprofessional. I had previously told many gardeners in our local horticultural society to check out your website for winter sowing information Trudi. Never again.

A former fan.

Jo, send me an email, I can't reply to you.

prairiemoon ... you're beautiful, that's for sure ... may the seed you sow take root and prosper. Flowers to you that we may all celebrate your clear thinking and very sweet essence.

Now ... somebody pass the merlot and take those fartguns away from the few stragglers I still see out there.

(he said while singing very loudly "I don't wanna work ... I jus wanna play on dese drums all day...")

MIMS! You're always so nice to hear from!

Here ya go! I'll drink to you and to the first snow of the season! Doesn't it look great?
{{gwi:451213}}

grow jo, from my understanding, the deliberate mistakes are nothing that will prevent anyone from having success wintersowing. Sometime a slight variable does not affect the outcome. I used hot chocolate mix in these cookies instead of straight cocoa. Either way, the cookies are delicious!

{{gwi:451214}}

Enjoy!!!! .

Maggie

MMMM! Maggie you must share the recipe.

Right on the money Maggie! All entries are valid.

And those cookies look awesome! Maggie, I might be missing it, but dod you post a link to that cookie recipe? Those would be a fine thing to bring to a Christmas party. They are soooo pretty and yummy looking. (druel)

T--chewing another wonderful and thrilling gosh-awful baby carrot. Sigh.

I knew that too Maggie! I could be as simple as (thought left out on purpose)..... I would never think Trudi would deliberately lead a newbie astray. Some folks tend to go to the extreme LOL!

Now I wanna a cookie Maggie....mmmmmmmm they look delish!

Vera

Here is the CCCC recipe, however, I used 3 packages of hot chocolate mix (with bunny shaped marshmallows :-) & decreased the sugar a tad...Also, I did not do step '5'. I put melted chocolate into a baggy & piped it on top. They taste soooooo good!
Maggie

Here is a link that might be useful: Chocolate Covered Cherry Cookies

My goodness! That was wonderful to read. I'm glad you're happy with thes seeds and I hope you will enjoy growing them.

I'll give you another good recipe!

Actually Delicious Turkey Burgers

Geeezzze.
Anyway, not to change the subject, but does anyone ever listen to Harry Belafonte? He has a great song called "Mama look at Boo Boo". If you every get a chance, listen to it.
Maggie

Here is a link that might be useful: Mama look at boo boo

Hmmm...thanks for digging that up. So that's a confirmation from six years back that I've asked that DG people don't copy any of the work and it was ignored.

Oh yeah, along the way I learned about copyrights, method, patent, etc. I've got a bunch of registrations right here on the wall behind me. WS has been a huge learning experience. Publishing onto a .org website has been the fastest way for me to freely share the information with the widest audience.

This is from my the front page of my website--FRONT PAGE--so it's clearly there:

The contents of this site are protected with registered copyrights. Permission for duplication of our Winter Sowing information, graphics and photos is granted for educational and/or non-profit purposes.

Direct linking to this website is encouraged.

Paraphrasing of any of this website's content, and/or paraphrasing of any GardenWeb FAQs authored by "Trudi_d" is discouraged unless credit to Trudi Davidoff, Trudi_d, and/or WinterSown.Org is given.

Now, as to that work of mine that was copied and published on DG, a for-profit website, without my permission....I'd like it all removed. I didn't ask before. But I'm asking now that Dave remove all of my work from his website that was added without my permission from his website. (Of course if Dave has already started this I do understand his point of view.) I'm sure DG's adept members will be able to tell him where it all is. Start with the people who copied it and ask...did you ask Trudi first? And if so, do you have a copy granting permission? If not, you know what to do.

To remind you of the policy in use at Dave's I ask that you please look at DG's acceptable use policy and see section 8.

Here is a link that might be useful: DG TOS

govols

The "MISTAKES" in the database in no way effect anyone using the database.
This group has been after Trudi for years to publish a book.

Now by coming over here again and trying to degrade us again you have POed the wrong person and caused Dave a ton of work.
I'm sure he will be pleased.

Trudi
WAY TO GO GIRL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
By the way Did you know I have professed my love for you on their site ROTFLMAO

Thanks for the lyric link Maggie, I don't know if I've ever head that song before so I'm cranking up Rhapsody right now to find the song and hear it...maybe I'll remember it, but I'll confess that the Banana Boat Song may be about the limit of Harry Belafonte songs that I know.

Okay I'm listening now...it reminds me of the band that plays on cruises to Bermuda. It's perfect!

I found the song on the Harry Belafonte "Platinum and Gold" Collection. I added the album to my playlist.

Similarly off topic, but just as joyful, I found a great news article about a budding young artist, I think everyone will enjoy reading it. I'll paste in the link.

Here is a link that might be useful: Artist Fools Critics

You know I've always had sepcial feelings for you too. I think you may have been my first "guy" WSer. Wink Wink.

No, I haven't gone back except to copy the DG TOS link. Hopefully the DG people will help Dave out and supply him the areas that have to be deleted and they can quickly move beyond this.