to me....it seems an aweful lot to spend on something you can get for free, if you use 2ltrs, they work, i used, juice containers, well, basically anything!! if it can have a hole punched in it, i used it, and i put syran wrap over the top on some of the stuff. with holes in them. it workes great!! you should see all the stuff i got out of everything!! i have way alot of things!! we used 5 gal buckets, butter containers, everything, ~Medo Hope that helps some :'))

The problem with using recylables is that we don't buy much of anything in plastic. In the next 6 months we'll get at most 12 milk jugs, and not a single pop bottle, butter tub yogurt container or plastic clamshell container. Of course, we could keep a stick in the truck and grab plastic out of the recyling bins in the Walmart parking lot. (We've been collecting flower pots from there, but not milk jusgs or anything yet.

Except for cover bags, we already have a huge supply of little pots, flats, gallon pots we've purchased by the case in the past. We've also got a big stash of pots that we get from neighbors if they ever buy plants.

Normally I don't like to spend money on stuff, but in the past years we've been starting so many plants each year (regular sowing, not winter sowing) that we've spent the money to set ourselves up like a professional grower in some ways. Those flats and 3 inch pots added about 5 cents of cost to each plant we grew the year we buy them, but some of the pots are now 10 years old and still as good as new.

For us, that actually turns out to be less costly than buying food in re-usable containers - espeically since we tend to be more the beans and rice and homegrown veg types.

Oh - I just got an e-mail and I might actually have the bag situation solved in an unexpected way. This morning I sent an e-mail to a plastic bag manufacturer to as for ONE single sample bag of that gusseted bag I was thinking about.

I'm not sure yet, but I think that what they are shipping as a sample is actually a case of 250! If it turns out to be, and if it turns out to be right for the job so we would have bought a case anyway, of course we'll offer to pay for the case of bags.

I'll know for sure when the sample arrives, but my winter sowing may end up with us trying to find anything we can stick bags over!

Lynda

{{gwi:355487}}

This was my 2008 set up for ws. It'a a bread crate with 16 ounce cups, covered by a large bedding bag with holes poked in top and bottom.

What a beautiful set up, ishareflowers.

Are you happy with the way it worked for you or making any changes for next year?

Lynda

Hello:

I'll continue to wintersow my almost-free way, but your reasons for making an investment certainly are sound. Your uniform containers will also look nicer during the winter, if that matters to you or your significant other.

Could you post a photo of the gusseted bags? I tried looking those up, and what I found were polythene bags that I fear may not hold up to UV for more than one season? Have you discussed that with the supplier? After looking at some gusseted bags, I read about different bag materials on this site:
http://www.bagbarn.com/liner.php

They do have 2-mil clear bags. I don't know if any of those products will be stronger or longer-lasting than what you've been looking for. The prices are lower than for your gusseted bags.

Being 2 mil, will those gusseted bags have any structure to them, or are they floppy? Polythene is floppy. You'll need something to keep the plastic off the top of your pots, like dowels or sections of venetian blinds. If the bags have structure, you can just clothespin them to one another so they don't blow over.

Your 3-inch pots and other containers should work fine in whichever bags you choose. I think they're 3-4 inches deep. Fill them to the top when you sow! The smaller your container, the faster it will dry out when the weather warms. If they do dry out fast, dump some dirt into your holding bag and put your pots back in--they will root into that dirt, but they won't dry out as fast.

I hope this helps, and I'd like to see the bags you're looking at!

Hi stage rat

These are the gussetted bags I was looking at: http://www.uline.com/ProductDetail.asp?model=S-11077&ref=154

And these are the type of flats we use: http://www.greenhousemegastore.com/prodinfo.asp?number=CN%2DTRK

The photo is of a 15 pocket, but the ones for the 3 inch pots are 28 pockets.

Right now, for bulk spring sowing I use the 3 inch pots and fill them with a really nice seed starting mix we special order from the folks at this nice family owned Ohio nursery: http://www.goodseedfarm.com/ (I like putting in a plug for them since they were so helpful getting us a good price a big bulk order of perlite.)

We're considering adding to our 2009 pot stocks with an order of 4 or 4.5 inch Kord pots from Greenhouse megastore, and a case of 50 flats to set them in. If we do, I can pot up into them if we have some plants that really blast off in growth early. If anyone's really vigorous we can also always move him to his own gallon pot if need be.

When we pot up from the 3 inch pot, we use our own container mix that we make from homegrown compost and perlite. Since we order our perlite in bulk and the compost is constantly replenished courtesy of Connie the Cow (Queen of ccompost), that's a very low cost but nutrient rich growing medium and we can use it freely as if the supply was truly unlimited.

Over the years we've put a bit of money into pots and flats, but even without winter sowing this year we got to a point where we had so many vegetable and flower seedlings that hubby and I had all 700 three inch pots, most of our gallons, and most of the mix and match neighbor donated pots in use.

We like to grow the garden bed plants on a bit in pots until they get a nice root ball, because the one that go directly in the soil here are going into pretty harsh growing conditions with amazingly poor soil.

Even though we sink a bit of money into nursery equipment and supplies, we get it back in food savings. In the past few years the only vegetables we've purchased have been an occasional bag of onions or carrots. And we've almost got to the point where we'll put and end to buying those soon. That, combined with the fact that we are vegetarians (with a big freezer) has us looking at nursery pot costs as part of our food budget.

Dropping another $120 or so for the ability to start another 500 vegetable plants for the year has been a really good value for us.

Of couse, this many nursery pots means that every week or so someone driving by pulls in the driveway to see if we sell plants! Maybe in another year and with a bit of winter sowing I should actually consider selling them some $5 and $10 perennials. :)

By the way, hubby just potted up another 41 okra plants today. Looks like we'll be having vegetarian gumbo this winter.

Lynda

Might have the posting photos thing figured out:

{{gwi:414617}}

This is with a comforter bag, not the gussett bags.

For bag support, I was considering wire mesh frames as needed. (see link)

Here is a link that might be useful: Ron's container cages

ok what if ya went to lowes and got some of that 6ml plastic and made a nice little crate/bin type of thing for your plants? kinda like a box, only using a frame, and you'd use the plastic to go on the outside. that's what i'm thinking about doing on some of mine. i don't want to do a huge thing this time. and i'm sure it will work.

medontdo - could you image what we could make with giant 6 mil bags like this?

You could even set a lawnchair inside and make a two story contraption.

I sure wish I knew some place that used bags like this and threw them out afterwards. It's like a ready made version of your crate bin idea.

I could give up wishing for a greenhouse with a yard full of these.

Here is a link that might be useful: Amazing cool plastic bag

Wow, these things sound pricey and sound like a lot of work and trouble.

It's only me and my husband here at home now, and we don't buy gallons of milk. But I did sow over 80 gallon jugs of seeds this year, all the jugs obtained from friends, neighbors, and coworkers. I also went out on garbage night and took them from home recycle bins before garbage pick-up. They're free and easy- no frames to build, nice depth for soil (you need 3 to 4 inches of soil) and lots of headroom. Remember, if using small containers inside a plastic bag, you do have to allow headroom for the seedlings to grow, and the "roof" has to be sturdy enough to hold it's own against rain, snow and wind.

Also, I don't pot up. Everything goes from milk jug to ground.

Karen

that is nice, but lowes has the roll of 100 ft by 50 i think, i bought mine for 50 bucks, and i did my front porch its 15x6 or 7 and i still have tons left over!! if you or your hubby have some building thoughts, hey can you imagine the fun you can have??? LOL i don't know how to build things but i do have idea's and they turn out pretty decent, LOL i know its alot of money but i have tons to do stuff with and i was thinking ahead. LOL i tend to do that. ***sighing***
now all i have to do is finish getting my gh up, my brother and his wife and little one came down for the 4th and him and his wife started putting it up for me, they are doers, and now i have to finish it, LOL ummmmm it was sitting on the porch since feb. LOL it woulda been done except he got stuck on the top front. errrrrr!!!! LOL ~Medo

I too, am thinking about that cost for WS. Spending that kind of money defeats the "almost free" part of WS.

On the other hand, have you thought about this idea. Freecycle?

There are freecycle groups all over the country and once you join, which is free, you can the post a wanted post asking for a steady supply of water and milk gallon jugs or any other kind of disposable container you would like to use.

I know quite a few people that have done just that and not only have found several sources for steady supplies of the gallon jugs, and have also introduced WS to these people and now they share the WS and have twice as many plants.

Just go to recycle.org and from there find your state and the closest recyle group to where you live.

As for worrying about keeping the plastic off your seedlings, I've been WS for 5 years, never worried about the plastic on the seedlings, and have never had a problem with it on any seedling.

I use and reuse zippy plastic bags, some of them for several years and it works fine for me.

Fran

lgs,
This was my first year at ws and I had great results. They stayed moist watering once daily and I had sprouts a couple of weeks before anyone in zone5. I'm thinking it had something to do with the insulated cups keeping them warmer.
The bags that your looking at will only last one year, that's exactly what I used.The holes poked in top and bottom did tear a little bit as time went on. Although, I was poking and prodding the bags daily to see what had sprouted.

I still keep coming back to the idea that the no-fuss way for our family to get into winter sowing is to just take what we've got already and stick a plastic bag over it - even if I end up shelling out 33 cents a bag.

This is a little bit of what we've got now:

{{gwi:414618}}

That's about half of what I planted AFTER I had officially stopped my spring sowing.

I think in total this year, I started about 25 flats and that doesn't count my husband's stuff (he grows the herbs and veggies.

The photo shown is after potting up. Those nicotiana in the first two flats were all started in just 4 pots. The Siberian iris in the 3d flat were started in 8 pots (4 seeds to the pot) and the gazanias in the back flat were also started 8 to the pot.

I'm thinking that sprinkling four to a dozen seeds in a pot, sticking in a flat, and tossing it in a bag has got to be the easy way for us.

For the cost of one gallon of gas, I've paid for enough bags to start 12 flats of 28 pots. Even lightly sowed at 8 seeds per pot that almost 2700 plants and uses less than half of the 3 inch pots we already have. And then when the seedlings are planted out the stuff stacks tight and stores in practically no space at all.

The only problem I see so far with winter sowing is that I'm going to end up really busy this fall and early spring digging even more garden bed to put next year's babies in.

I'm enjoying hearing all of the different ways you folks set up your containers and jugs.

Lynda

I can't believe you pot up all those things! If I had to do that much work, I'd give up WSing.

As long as I can get the good old type milk jugs, I'll use them. And everything will go from jug to ground.

Karen

Hi Karen -

We're in the unglaciated hills in the southeast part of the state, and we have the leanest garden soil you've ever seen. Believe me, if I could get seedlings to root in the ground without a bit of potting up I'd toss them right in there!

This is what our garden soil like in a three year old garden bed that has been augmented each year with plenty of compost. Those black bits between the rocks are the coal.

{{gwi:414619}}

One things that's nice is that it's also tough for weeds to grow in this soil so it's pretty easy to stay on top of that. After the plants are in the ground, most of our work for the summer is chipping the top surface of the soil to keep it open enough to let water flow in instead of running off.

Lynda

I think, of your 2 methods, I'd go with the bedding bags. You should be able to keep headroom with just 2 strips of cardboard, slit 1/2 way though at the halfway point so they slide together to make an X or cross. That will sit in the middle of the bag.

I don't think either type of bag will last more than one year. Ishareflowers says the bedding bags won't, and I think that'll be the same for the gusseted bags. How about buying big clear-sided storage bins? Someone on this forum did that, using cups and pots inside. She even stacked them on top of one another, I believe. If you stacked, I guess a clear top wouldn't matter, since the sun would reach the pots only from the side. If stacked, you'd have to monitor their moisture, since they wouldn't get snow and rain. And you'd have to unstack them to vent. The plastic bins might become brittle in the cold, but I think they'd withstand the sun better, and last 3 or more years. If you got the same bin, they'd all stack together, or separately could store your pots.

If you have room for storage, sticking used 2-liter or milk jugs into a garbage bag and sticking that in the garage rafters works really well, too! (I recommend clear bags only, so there are no garbage-day accidents). You definitely can get a lot of jugs or 2-liter bottles using Freecycle, Craig's list, talking to Starbucks or preschools. If you have to make a lot of long drives to get a few jugs at a time, I can see how just buying your bags would be appealing.

It will definitely be less work for you to have containers you don't have to prep, and that you can use your already-existing pots with. Something you don't have to build elaborate supports for would be good. Something that will last more than a year would be really good, too! If I had to spend that much every year for either of the bags, I'd go with the clear bins, or make the time investment to prep jugs. But whatever you choose, take a lot of photos and tell us how it goes!

A little off-topic, but your land sounds like the perfect candidate for lasagne beds! It seems like an awful lot of work to grow SO many things in pots. I can't imagine filling all those pots with growing medium and watering, fertilizing, etc. Plus pots are unsightly, and I'm always trying to whittle down the "pot ghetto" cuz I get sick of looking at it. Of course, you can move pots around, which is sometimes a plus.

Also, because of the huge volume of plants you start from seed, I would forget the gusset bags and milk jugs and go straight to a greenhouse! But that may not be feasible for you.

Part of the appeal of winter-sowing is the economy of it - that you use recycled materials (I didn't spend $1 for materials, just for seeds and potting soil). You take advantage of Mother Nature's sun, snow, and rain, even the alternating freezing and thawing temperatures, which are FREE, to sprout your seeds. No lights! No electricity! Heck you can even get practically free seeds (cost of postage only) from many generous seed-traders. Even someone with a very limited budget or living in the city can fill a few containers and throw them out in the yard.

I do have about 100 baby perennials and vines potted up in a hodge podge of small nursery pots, 16 oz cups, etc. so they could grow up a little before planting out. They don't look nearly as tidy as yours! :)

I need to look into lasagna beds a bit further.

We do have one 10 x 25 raised bed that was made from rustic framing (using homemade fence rails) and was built mostly lasagna style. We just layed down cardboard and then topped it with the contents of the goat house when we cleaned it. Goat house floor starts with good draining ground, a layer of wood chips, shredded leaves, and then as "nanny berries" accumulate we top with more shredded leaves. It actually composts really nicely like that, drains well, and stays clean and fresh smelling. When we dig it out we shovel out rich layered compost.

Cow pies have to go through the normal heap composting process to cook down further but the goat bedding can go straight into a garden bed without further composting. It's amazing stuff and with just a rough frame it's a ready made garden.

At the end of this year's growing season, Part of the container contents is going to be used to enrich my garden beds (since they've already been dug we might as well make the most of them) but a lot of it will to set up additional raised bed. Not sure if it's true lasagna style, but we've got a source for giant tractor tires and we'll put cardboard underneath and then layer in with the used container compost and shredded leaves.

You've got me wondering now whether there might be an easy way to lasagna an extension to my front border garden. The only drawback is that the next section I want to put in is about 6 ft x 80 ft and once we put in a few new raised beds that's not going to leave very much compost for the border garden. We're still in "food before flowers" mode here, so food gardens get first dibs on the compost.

It's funny that you mention the greenhouse. We are looking at putting one in within 10 years. We want a 60 ft commercial greenhouse to put out back. We'll still do most of the veg with our current set up, but we'll be able to move buckets there to extend the season. I'd really like to decrease the number of months each year that we miss out on fresh tomatoes and peppers. :)

Our other plans for "ultimate greenhouse" as we call it include some big scale rainwater catchment systems, some solar power stuff, and a hydroponic green fodder system so we can grow treats for the goats and cow year round.

Even with Ultimate Greenhouse, I honestly think that winter sowing is still going to be an important part of our growing. The success you all are having germinating perennials and hardy annuals is better than you could get in greenhouse growing. All of those "takes 4 weeks to a year to germinate", "germination is light and erratic", and "cold stratify for 8 weeks, germinate at 72.8 degrees and grow on at 57 degrees" type seeds seem to thrive with the winter sowing approach. No matter how big a greenhouse we end up with I still expect that we'll still be winter sowing plenty of our plants.

I can tell already that our sense of economy is going to be a little different that most folks here on the forum. Hubby and I live kind of a homestead lifestyle. We have small part-time home businesses (I'm and illustrator and he does musical instrument repair and consultation) but most of our "work" centers around our animals, growing our own food, and generally finding ways to make ourselves self sufficient so that we never venture out beyond the end of our driveway. :) (Maybe that's why I'd rather have UPS bring me another case of pots instead of going out to track down a Freecycler.)

There's a big recreational aspect to our gardening and animal care as well. We just find all the work a lot more enjoyable than something like going out to dinner or to a movie, or going shopping. I guess the fact that we have the time to enjoy the work without having to rush and fit it around a conventional work schedule makes a huge difference.

During the spring, we have the luxury of being able to put everything else on hold and spend 3 or 4 days potting up the vegetables, enjoying the sunshine, and taking an occasional break for a cup of tea. It's very different from when I used to have a conventional job controlling a lot of my time.

We also have a strange mix of abundant space, lousy soil, steep hills, flash floods, and rural setting with few neighbors and now home owners associations. We're also living on a piece of land that we'll be staying on for the rest of our lives, so a lot of our garden planning is for what we want our lifestyle to be like 10 - 20 years from now.

Gosh, the coffee seems to be kicking in! Time to take a break from chit chatting and get going on today's chores.

Lynda

Here is a link that might be useful: hydroponic greens for the goats

This wouldn't be as compact as your set up but instead of a milk jug type have you considered using laundry detergent jugs. I know I go through a lot of those. I generally give the lids to my toddler as a bath toy too.

Well, I got the sample plastic bag and I'm not impressed enough to spend money for it.

A flat of agastache seedlings modelling the gusseted bag:

{{gwi:414620}}

The size, shape and fit are really good, but 2 mil plastic isn't even as sturdy feeling as a recycled zip lock bag. I'd do just as well getting a box of clear leaf bags and using those.

I'll definitely be saving milk jugs and using those for some of the things I'm going to grow as HOS. I've got a fairly nice stash of gallon vinegar bottles as well - so they'll get put into use too. And for the kind of stuff that self sows readily around here even the cheapest clear trash bags should be sufficient to help keep humidity in.

I had several flats this year that weren't winter sowed, just direct sowed into the pots and left outside to mostly fend for themselves. I'd give them a drink of water when they got really dry, but other than that they were left alone. The only thing that did not work well with that was when the elm trees bloomed early and dropped dozens of seeds into each pot to fight it out with my intentional seeds.

Too bad I wasn't trying to grow elm. I germinated hundreds of those this year without even trying.

Well - I've still got the greater part of 7 months to think about all of this. But I'll going to go ahead and hoard jugs and plastic while I make up my mind. :)

Lynda

Here is a link that might be useful: Another photo of the bag & flat

Lynda: Also ask friends, family, neighbors, co-workers to save them for you. And if you take a walk on garbage night, you'll find a lot in neighbors recycle bins.

Around here most in curbside bins have been squashed too badly to be usable, but I have gotten a few that way.

Half gallon milk jugs and 2 liters work, too, and juice cartons, lots of things. Just keep in mind 3" of soil and some head room.

Karen

Karen wrote: "Lynda: Also ask friends, family, neighbors, co-workers to save them for you. And if you take a walk on garbage night, you'll find a lot in neighbors recycle bins. "

:)

Oh Karen, you made my hubby and I smile with this.

If you are ever in the southeast part of the state, let me know so I can show you the neighborhood. I'm more likely to find a moonshine still than a recycling bin in my neighborhood!

And family is a great idea, but you're about 10 hours closer than they are! No co-workers either - we homestead.

I really do appreciate your helpfulness and always get a chuckle out of how different our lifestyles are when both live in the same half of the state.

I bet you folks even mow your lawn instead of letting the cow eat it!

Lynda

Lynda: Truly, I can't relate.

But you must see people other than your husband on some level? Belong to some social groups? Church? You must go somewhere to buy something? I can't imagine that in this day and age you exist totally as an island unto yourselves?

You must have some friends other than virtual online names? If you have computer service, you must have some connection to modern life?

Karen

Lynda, you're living the lifestyle I fantasize about switching to, especially when I have to mow the lawn! I think "The neighbors would notice a goat, wouldn't they? Are there any...mute goats out there?" and I mow on. Sigh.

You're going into this in a big way, using flats and nursery pots. You really could do it in a small greenhouse, (not the Ultimate one, just a little one), even a couple of those very small ones, the shelves with the plastic cover that zips closed. A few people on here wintersow in those. They can blow over in the wind if unsecured, of course.

Here is the tall mini-greenhouse, it's the second on the page. I think you could find this for less, or less in shipping:
http://www.portable-greenhousekit.com/portable_greenhouse_kit.html

Or, I'm estimating that you could have 24 flats in here, with plenty of headroom for growth (You'd have to build the shelves.) It's $85:
http://www.ivgstores.com/IVG2/Y/ProductID-18431-Easy-Setup-Greenhouse-Large-Pop-Up-Rip-UV-Resistant.htm

Those are just a few more ideas for you.
Here's 2 photos of the clear plastic storage bin method, done by Pameiliap:

{{gwi:414621}}
{{gwi:414622}}

{{gwi:414623}}
{{gwi:414624}}

Hi Karen -

We do have a neighbor we chat with occasionally, but as far as local contact go, that's it. We leave the land to run errands once every 3 weeks or so, but that's all.

As for social contact, both hubby and I are in touch with family and long time friends on a frequent basis, but that via e-mail as they are scattered all over the world.

Our phone rings at most once a week, and it's usually a wrong number. No cell phone, but if we did have one we couldn't use it unless we go up 200 ft to the top of our hill.

Last year we put a grand total of 1585.4 miles on our cars, but a lot of that was extra driving because we had a goat with a broken leg who had to go up to Columbus for vet care.

Pretty different, huh? We love it, though.

Stage rat - I like the idea of the pop up greenhouse. It would eliminate the advantage of natural exposure to rain and snow, though. We do also have some old chewing gum vending racks we got from our friendly local scrapyard dealer. I might be able to just line up the flats on those and clothespin a clear top over it.

And yes, you need goats. I need to get some good photos of our guys up on Flickr. You'd like Buster the black goat with white polka dots.

Oh, I do have an old photo of him on photobucket. Here you go:

{{gwi:414625}}

Lynda

Oh I have always wanted a goat. My husband wants to cement the back yard so he doesn't have to mow and we only have 1/4 acre. I keep telling him when we get a bigger place a goat is the way to go. He is trying to talk me into moving into a development though, sigh no goats allowed there. Are they in fields or among your flowers?

Hi floodthelast -

We've got 15 acres, and when we fenced it we fenced OUT the house, front yard, and a little part near the garage. The goats have access to the fenced 15 acres during the day, and then go into their 1-2 acre safety area at night. (That's inside the 15 too, and gives them two layers of fence protection from predators.)

Our garden area is limited to the area outside of goatland.

Last year when Buster broke his leg and had to live in the laundry room and kitchen area for 12 weeks (thank goodness he was easy to house break as long as we put him outside every 3 hours) he did get to take an occasional stroll around the edges of the garden. Black goats look adorable when they have a mess of black eyed susans hanging out of the corners of their mouth while they munch. He also ate the veterinarians pansies.

Generally they eat trees, shrubs, weeds, wildflowers and grasses.

BTW - for Karen. I'm guessing that you've probably also never had the fun of having a goat in the house, right?

One other note. That soil in Buster's photo is ALL coal. That's the hillside along what we call Back Yard #1.

Lynda

If Buster had to depend on sharing my house to live, he would have been up the proverbial creek.

Enlighten me. What made you want to live in total social isolation? How did you come to live on your coal mine? Inherit it? I am familiar with the historical homestead act, are you referring to the same today? Modern references are made to "homesteading" where the term simply seems to mean simply growing one's own vegetables. Seriously, how did you come to own a coal "farm" where you grow your plants in buckets? Are you raising children there? If you are making mortgage payments, how do you make money? How do you find contacts for your illustrating business? On the internet? And your husband's musical instrument repair? Whose instruments? I am serious.

Karen

Well, I used to be a Chemical Engineer and live in big cities, but I saved my pennies well.

In 2002 I got a lead on a great job, great pay, in a place where most people didn't want to live (one of Ohio's economically disadvantaged Appalachian counties.) We could buy our dream retirement land with a decent little house on it and still get change back from selling our house in Baltimore. People aren't rushing to this area, but we love the hills and the quiet - even if the only way we're going to get decent garden soil is by growing it ouselves in our compost heaps.

While I worked, hubby's job was to prepare the land for our retirement - digging the gardens, fencing 15 acres, cutting paths through the dense brush (doing laundry, making me a cup of tea when I got home.)

I worked until 2005 and then the company needed to downsize. We already had enough to retire and were just banking away a bit extra just in case, but the chance of getting out of the conventional work force before age 45 was too good to pass up.

Having no kids made this all easier. It was easier to save money. We didn't need to consider school systems or kids' socialization needs.

We're not off grid or fully self sufficient, but we grow enough food to still be eating last year's veg as this year's is ripening. And that's with us being vegetarians and eating lots of vegetables. Long term we want to have ourselves close to self sufficient with energy and water, but that's still a way off.

For the illustration business, I draw (and sometimes photograph) what I'm interested and I work with a stock photography/illustration agency in Europe that handles finding clients, making sales, and leasing the image rights. When someone in China or Peru buys a picture of one of my posies the agency sends me a check.

Hubby's work is very specialized, and the instruments he works on are small enough that they come to us by mail, UPS, or DHL. He has a 6 month to a year waiting list, and this month's clients were in Scotland, Japan, and I think there was one for Italy as well. People seek out his work, send an e-mail, and if he's interested in the work he lets them ship the instrument and puts them in the queue. He turns down more work than he has time to take on.

The whole land isn't coal. :) That's just a big seam in backyard #1. We've got quite a variety of different kinds of inhospitable soil.

Let's see. We bought one loaf of store bought bread in 10 years - but that was on moving day before the truck got here. I haven't even used commercial yeast in 3 years (I keep a sourdough starter going) but we do still buy it once in a while for hubby's baking.

We really feel like we are living the life of luxury. I can step outside and pluck a strawberry. Dinner goes from plant to table in the time it takes to slice it, cook it, and serve up some rice or noodles. When we sit on the porch or work out front there's a dozen or so folks a day who wave, and we actually know a couple of them. We've got a great neighbor up the hill on on side, close enough so that if a tree comes down we can expect them to come to the fence and peek down to make sure we're OK.

What else. We used to have garbage service, but it cost $12 per month and we rarely had anything to throw out. Now, without garbage service, we usually end up with a little bag of trash (mainly AOL disks from the mail and stuff like the plastic packaging from batteries) the size of a padded envelope every three weeks and we take that with us to Walmart and put it in the trash can on the way in. We burn cardboard and paper and recycle the little plastic we have.

We'd be more self sufficient if we kept our animals in milk and made our own cheese as well, but our animals are also pets and we don't want to breed them and risk losing one in childbirth. So we buy store milk once every three weeks and use powdered in between store trips.

We're training our cow as a Lady Ox, and she will pull in a harness. We've also been training her since she was a baby to be a riding cow. We're still a little behind on that. She lets us sit on her whenever we want, but she won't move unless we let her know it's ok by leading her on a halter. But that's better than having a riding cow that blasts off without notice.

This used to all feel pretty cool and novel to us, but now it just seems normal. I just couldn't image ever again putting my life and interests and family on hold for 8 to 10 hours a day just to go earn the money to drive back and forth to work, to buy dress clothes, or to pay someone to do some repair or maintenance that I don't have the time to do because I'm working all day. Not to mention the whole business of having to deal with bosses, parking spots, meetings, the business crisis of the week. Blech. I'd rather pot up some plants and go harvest some seeds.

So that's what we do. We forget it's kind of odd by most people's standards because here in the hills it's not so terribly different than the way a lot of people live.

I bet Buster would win you over if you met him. How could you not love those spots. :)

Lynda

Wow, so do you shop online a lot?

My parents live in Minerva are you much farther SE than that? I would suppose you are but then again I am geographically challenged.

Also I didn't know you are an illustrator. I love photography and would love to find a source for selling my flower pics. If you don't mind giving me advice feel free to send me an email. You can send me an email if you just feel chatty too, although this site probably takes care of that.

I see now why you need so many pots.

I'm about five minutes away from any store I can think of and walking distance from several more. I like it but I would like more land to garden with and have privacy. I can see out my bedroom window into the neighbors house if we leave the windows open.

If I ever have another pet it will be another golden retriever.

It sound like quite an interesting life, good that you are happy. Not one I would choose- I like having friends and neighbors around and enjoy the stimulation of professional life. Once I was unable to work for 10 months and felt depressed and isolated because I missed working.

I have taken this way off topic, but I enjoyed the trip.

I'm sure you will come up with something for wintersowing. With all the pots that you have, a large plastic bag or sweater or blanket bags might be your best option. You'll just need to build a cage with chicken wire or something over top to hold the plastic off and give seedlings some headroom.

Karen

Floodthelast - About online shopping. We don't shop much to begin with. But for things like birthday and Christmas presents for family, seeds, pot & flats, kitchen appliances if we need them, or books - yes, that's all online. If it's not at Walmart or the feed store, we'll probably order it on line.

We do like good tea, but we usually get that as a Christmas gift after sending family hints and links to it on Amazon. :)

I'll drop you an e-mail to answer the other questions.

Karen - off topic has been fun. And I always enjoy a chance to show of Buster and his polka dots.

I have thouroughly enjoyed to trip 'off topic'. Lynda you are living a life that I have dreamed of and I have enjoyed reading about it. We are doing more and more of our own veggies but are a long way from being self-sufficient in that area but each year we experiment a little bit more. I have been in this WS mode for 3 winters now and am still looking for that perfect set up but it has been fun. I am finding a lot of good tips from what you have been doing and look forward to reading more - thanks for sharing your story with us.....

Lynne

I too have dreamed of that self sufficient way. Be sure to post regular and tell us what neat things are going on in your life.

I think that this discussion was fascinating. I think that with the internet, it's much easier to live "offgrid" now and still enjoy a well-rounded, well-connected life. If you haven't read it, The Omnivore's Dilemma is a very engaging and interesting book that you may find very relevant to some of the decisions that you have made for your life. In it, the author details where our food comes from, and there's a very neat discussion of sustainable agriculture in the middle chapter of the book.

some good friends of mine are considering a similar lifestyle change in Texas. They already have a hobby farm and livestock, but they haven't progressed to full sustainability with full veggie gardening. they are also a chemical engineer and a chemist by training, funnily enough. It's a training that tends to attract independent, smart folks who like to tackle challenges...

Homesteading seems to be something that more and more people are doing. Just yesterday I read some very interesting posts on the Homesteading forum of Mother Earth News (link below - see Sustainable Farming).

You have a very interesting lifestyle Linda. I have always been a homebody and lately have been more so. Over the past year and a half I have been working towards having less "stuff" and more "substance" in my life. Very liberating. Compared to you, I am in the early stages of changing my lifestyle but maybe one day.....

Maureen

Here is a link that might be useful: Mother Earth News - Forums

Well, if I've got a full cup of coffee it doesn't take much more than a nudge to get me typing for a while. I'm really enjoying the company of winter sowers - this forum seems to attract the most pleasant of gardening folks.

And it's always fun to peek into other people's gardens and to have people to show your own flower photos to. :)

Lynda

Hi all,
I work at living a very isolated life amidst over 2 million people in Chicago. I like having the access to the big city but my house is situated on a quiet cul-de-sac somewhat cut-off from the hustle and bustle. I much prefer it this way. Very often I resent that I am forced to lead a conventional life dictated by bosses and time clocks. It really interferes with gardening time.

I have thoroughly enjoyed this OT discussion. Linda, you ought to write a book! I haven't laughed so hard in a while. I too am looking for a new set up. This was my first year w/s and I had mixed results.

Most of what I had success with i chose to repot since I have so many critters chomping away at my babies and just about everything that germinated died once planted. No poppies I'm really bummed about. I don't know what I did wrong.

I hope to hear more of your exploits and ironically enough, I have said on many occasions, I ought to have a farm, because almost all of my time is spent outdoors in my yard and I'm about to run out of gardening space soon.

Oh yeah, thanks for sharing your pics of Buster, he's adorable :)

LaDonna

Lynda, very interesting. Not for me. Can't live without my city and love the city burb. I think it's very cool what you are doing. Please continue to share. I think we can all learn something.

Well, since the thread's come around again I might as well show you all the new photos from today. Be sure to check out Lawn Moo-er Connie the Cow. She's really cute.

Other highlights include the first of the new tire gardens. To dispose of a tire, it costs $3 for a car tire, $10 for a semi tire, and $30 for a tractor tire - so it's always easy to find someone who'd like to give a way a tire, or even deliver a truckload of them to your house.

The more I work with the soil I have here, the more I'm ready to give up fighting it and just plant in containers or raised beds. So next year we are going to add to our gardens with lots and lots of tire planters. If I'm lucky the heat absorption may even give me some zone 6/7 or zone 7 microclimates where I can overwinter zone 7 hardy tubers like 4's and some dahlias. Connie has already been told that "more compost" is on her job list.

The tires should let me go straight from winter sow container to tire planter with no need to pot up since the tires will be filled with the same compost + perlite mix we make for potting up. That will be a time save.

So will not having to dig more garden beds, and having a lot less summer watering and soil chipping because the plants will be growing in nice rich soil. We still do have to cut tops off tires and add more drainage, and sieve and mix the compost.

If you want to see the big version of the photos you can just click on them or start with the first and step through one at a time. And after you browse the latest photos, you are welcome to click on the "collections" tab at the top and see what plants are going to have their seed collected this year. In fact, time to go see what's ripe now - then on to watering.

Lynda

Here is a link that might be useful: July 18th photos

Lynda

I would love to trade for some of your cerinthe. It is a very unusual plant. Is it hard to grow? thanks let me know

Paula

Hi Paula -

The first time I grew Cerinthe was in 2001, and I direct sowed in Spring. I bought 100 seeds from HPS Seed and only got two plants to germinate and grow, but those were beautiful. The big fuzzy bumblebees love them.

This year was my second try with it. I didn't know about winter sowing yet, but what I did was similar - just with a later start (March/April), no cover to keep moisture in and tree seeds out, and shuffling the flat off to the garage to avoid a big frost. I got something like 26 out of 28 seeds to germinate - enough for three garden bed sections for me and a couple to give to the neighbor up the hill.

I bet they'll be easy with winter sowing - we just need to figure out if they go out with the hardies in January or the half hardies in March or so. Vera (who I think is a zone 5 person) usually has a cerinthe or two visible in her garden photos so I bet she could tell us.

They transplanted well for me, and my best stand of them is actually growing about a foot or two from where I took the lousy garden soil photo. The other two stands are doing almost as well, and their soil is just a bit better.

I'm still waiting for the seeds to grow and ripen, but there's a lot of flowers in bloom on them so there should be plenty to share. I'll take a peek at your trade list (especially at things like your snap dragons) and drop you a note to work out details.

I've never had this many plants and this much potential seed before, and it's need to be turning into someone who actually has some stuff to trade. Now all I need to do is figure out all the bubble mailer and postage stuff. It's really quite exciting! Especially with something like cerinthe that used to seem so exotic and uncommon to me and now they are as plentiful as zinnias and sunflowers.

Lynda

Lynda

I will also be adding more things to my list as things mature and I collect more seeds from them.

And I might take a clue from you and take pics of the flowers that I am collecting seeds from to show people what they look like.

Paula

Lynda,

well if you're doing tire planters, you might forgo the pot step entirely. I've covered my wide planters loosely with plastic sheeting that I've cut a few holes into, and "wintersown" the planters in March very effectively. A few stakes in the center to keep the plastic off the seedlings and some method to keep the plastic intact - rocks, a few pieces of tape, a few clothespins - and you're set.

Also, you mention both Connie and microclimates - have you ever googled the concept of a hotbed since you have access to fresh manure? I know it was used in cold climates like Michigan, MN, to get a jumpstart on seedlings. It's a coldframe where fresh manure was layered under aged compost, and seeds were planted in the top layer. The heat given off by the cooking of the compost and the insolation together were sufficient to heat the interior of the coldframe sufficiently to greatly speed germination and growth in the late winter.

Paula - you may want to look into Flickr if you decide to take photos of a bunch of your seed parents. I finally coughed up the $24.95 (annual charge) for a pro account because it's just so much easier to organize my photos there than on my computer. Makes sharing individual photos or sets of them easier as well, and I have to admit I like being able to give and receive comments - and peek at gardens from around the world.

Spartangardener - I was tossing around the idea of going directly to tires but am a bit concerned that some of the grass and weed seeds we have in the compost might compete with my winter sown seeds. In smaller containers I can use a good quality sterile weed-free seed starting mix.

Depending on when we get the tires ready to go, I may go ahead and tire-WS a few "riot of sunflowers" tires or mixed planting tires using my most abundant seed. If all 56 of those nicotiana I planted out last week contribute to the seed program I can sow recklessly with the seed and if I lose a few while pulling out weeds it won't be a big loss.

It would be nice to use the tires as big HOS germinators from December to May, then harvest their HOS and move most of them to colonize the really inhospitable garden areas. Then from May to September or so the tires could serve double duty as pretty gardens and nursery beds for perennials and seed-harvesting annuals - most of which were WS started in smaller containers.

The prospect of growing large numbers of plants looks more doable than it used to thanks to things like winter sowing, tire gardens, HOS transplanting, and getting a stock of perennials going for future division. I'm thinking of something like this as my general plan:

WS into pots in flats as the way to start seed packet seeds and other seeds that I don't yet have established.

Tires as rich soil growing areas to be used as nursery beds to take perennials to dividing size and to grow annuals for seed.

Current garden beds will get augmented with the vegetable container compost this fall, but they are still going to be tough environments for plants to grow in. They are a good place for plants that I have in such abundance that I can lose a few and it's not a big deal. Things like most of the zinnias, 4's, cerinthe, perennials that I'm starting to get a lot of - always with a couple safely held back in tire gardens to ensure next year's seed crop.

Then there's the wilderness. The first spot is in front of the front rail fence and behind the front border shrubs. It's a nice big area with brutal growing conditions. Digging it would just give me another really awful garden bed, so I'm going to plant it with tough plants in HOS placed into holes with a bit of compost, and for the first year it's going to be a weed whacker garden. (That's one where you've got some islands of plants colonizing and you weed whack in between them - then dig more holes and plant more each year. I'm planning on hitting that area with hunks of hollyhocks, black eyed susans, cone flowers, corn flowers, blanket flowers, and probably a bunch of 4s.

As we start to get to ridiculous numbers of plants here, the next spots to plant are the two steep slopes to the right and left of the front yard. These are wild brush covered slopes and the soil is so poor it's almost impossible to describe. When I have a good stock of bomb proof perennials we're either going to brush cut out sections or temporary fence it and let the goats eat it down to the ground. Then I load in plants and seed and hope for enough spring rain to let things get a foothold.

I'm looking at starting 2000 - 6000 plants this winter and hoping that between the tires, current garden beds, and HOS colonization I'll have enough established perennials and annual seed to actually start getting something established on the slopes in Spring 2010. If we can get enough seed this year to direct sow the goatland area in Spring 2009, and if they don't eat every flower, I'll have a second potential seed harvest source there as well.

And once I have banks of flowers established on the front rough border and the two slopes I can just take it easy, collect bags of seed to direct sow each year, and just WS to add fun stuff to the garden. I plan on doing a lot more sitting on the porch, drinking coffee and looking at the gardens after the first 5 years or so of work on them.

As for hotbeds, no I hadn't heard of them but hubby has. We'll look into it further - sounds very useful.

Well, the rain is going to miss us again. Maybe I still have a chance to get it to rain if I go out and start my watering. :)

Lynda

Oh! Hooray! Rain started while I was spell checking! Hooray!

Lynda, Walter and I loved your pictures, especially Buster the Goat and Connie the Cow. We have a Buster too, but he's a black lab. I envy your lifestyle...and of course your Clownie. That plant just has so much character. ;)

Did you get your gusseted bags yet? Did the company send you a while case as a sample? I want to do some WS in flats of pots too but I think I might try some without any plastic.. do you think that would work for some seeds? My friend just gave me a gazillion 3 inch pots and flats to hold them and she has more if I need them. I just need for my WS to be pretty much free. I'm a single mom and have to watch my budget. >::

Gerri
(Clownie's #1 fan)

Hi Gerri -

I got the gusseted bag sample, and it was just one of them. I got the 2 mil sample, and the shape is great. Thickness I'm not so keen on. - but it would work in a pinch. And double bagging with that would get me through even severe late frosts.

The whole bag and flat idea seems like a really simple way to go if you already have pots and flats. It looks like the Do It Center hardware store chain carries a big clear Hefty type leaf bag. I haven't seen it in person, but it's something like $11 for 24 bags.

Each of my flats holds 28 pots which will be 100 - 200 seedlings for most seeds. A box of the giant clear heftys would set up a lot of trays. The leaf bag size might even be big enough to hold two flats.

Instead of supporting the bags by propping them up, I plan to place a couple of metal T-posts in my WS area, run a wire between them, and drop strings downward and then clip them to the top of the bags with my tomato clips. I think it will look like a miniature version of a depression era tent camp - only with transparent tents.

As for WS in uncovered flats, I did late winter sowing that way this year and had pretty good success. The big drawbacks are that it's a lot easier to over or under water them, you really have to watch the weather and be ready to cover for frost (and hope the cover doesn't blow off), and if there are any trees anywhere near they will drop all sorts of seeds in your pots. Then you end up trying to figure out which seedlings are the ones you want and which are more elm and maple trees.

If you've got all of those pots and flats handy you might want to nip into a Do It Center type hardware store if they are in your area and check out the big clear plastic leaf bags. Or if you Walmart shop and buy large items, even a single or double bagging with the big sized Walmart bag might fit nice. Just keep an eye on them and be ready to replace or tape up if they tear late in the season.

One other thing that might work for you if you have any bigger sized pots. Do you use Glad Press and Seal wrap? That stuff seals well and weathers well. You could fill medium sized pots halfway and then cover the top with press and seal and poke a few vents. Instant mini-greenhouse.

Hope that helps. And keep in mind that I'm a newbie with WS so this is all just guessing on my part.

Lynda