More photos. I think they are the same tree:

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First series - ash

Second series - hickory

I agree.

Nice job, J0nd03 - now tell RedSun why.

By series, are you referring to another post? I'm seeing all hickories all the time in this thread.

+oM

Tom, the tree in her OP is an ash tree. The tree in her second post is a hickory. Buds would also be a definitive ID between the two. Hickory is alternate leaf arrangement and ash is opposite IIRC - can't tell from the pics. IME, ash has more of a circular leaf shape with smoother leaf margins compared to the elangated oval shape with more definitive serration of hickory.

Edit: To me, hickory has an almost teardrop shape to the leaves with the widest point almost always occurring in the half closest to the leaf tip.

This post was edited by j0nd03 on Thu, Oct 2, 14 at 9:46

Well, always hoping that some people take the initiative to look deeper given some information.

As j0nd03 says, the leave arrangement is different (understanding first that what you are dealing with here are compound leaves so you have to look at where it joins the woody stem to see the arrangement). That is not readily apparent in these "from the top" pictures, however, except the 2nd hickory one which is from the side.

wisconsitom, there are 4 pictures in one group (series) that are ash and 3 pictures in a second group (series) that are hickory. Not being able to see the leaf arrangement in the first series makes it tough.

Yes, of course I'm aware both genera feature compound leaves. Likewise, the opposite/alternate features are things I'm well aware of. I remain confused though-are we talking pics from two separate threads, or all pics are within this thread? I see only hickories in this thread, albeit, the first four could be ash-I can't make out the leaf attachment, let alone buds, etc. It's just not what green or white ash, let alone black ash, looks like. In fact, the rounded leaflets of the top group look exactly like shagbark hickory to me.

Whatever...out in the landscape, the correct id would be obvious. It's as you say, looking down from the top, that is helping to make this difficult. I can't however, agree with your overall descriptors of ash leaves being more rounded, hickory more narrow. Given the right examples, exactly the obvious could be said. That's too general to have much meaning within this context. For example, black ash leaves are narrow, almost willow-like, while going back again to shagbark hickory, they tend towards a rounded shape.

It's autumn. Some pics showing the buds would clear this up in a millisecond!

+oM

In my Arkansas woods, what I said above is what I have consistently observed for the last 6 years with white and green ash compared to mockernut hickory. There are always exceptions to the rule (or in this case non professional anecdotal observations) but it is generally consistent.

I have seen literally hundreds of ash saplings exactly like the OP's first series and I was able to check the bark, buds, and leaf arrangement in person. I have also seen many dozens of hickory saplings just the OP's second series and was able to see the leaf arrangement, bark, and buds in person. Also, understory leaves have different shapes than their larger brethren.

I would make a $100 bet on both ID's as being correct at least as far as genus is concerned. Wanna take me up on that, Tom?

Zooming in on the first and second of the first set of photos, leaf arrangement does appear to be opposite, which would indicate ash.

As it happens, I was just taking a break from trying to nail down the species of some volunteer ash trees in an urban watershed...some days it's the same thing, over and over again...

tom, the education on compound leaves wasn't meant for you, I know you know that. That was for the OP. My comment for you was just about the fact that all the pictures being discussed are in this thread ....

Yes, leaf buds in the fall are great identification features!

Here are some more pictures (set #1):

This tree, its leaves have 7 leaflets and the leaves are more rounded. Leaves come from opposite side of the stem. I believe this is the tree in my first set of pictures:

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Sorry, for set #1, the leaves come from the same side of the stem, not from the opposite side.

This is another set of the pictures (set #2). I believe this set is the same tree in my original second set of photos.

The leaves have 5 leaflets and the leaves come from opposite side of the stem. The leaves have sharper points, not rounded. I believe this is the real hickory tree.

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This is a bigger tree, similar to the one in set #1. Again, the leaves have 7 leaflets and leaves come from the same side of the stem/trunk. Leaves are rounded.

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BOOM GOES THE DYNAMITE

(I was correct with both ID's, RedSun ;) ) I figured when both esh and VV supported my ID's, they were correct. Maybe Grandpa Tom forgot to put on his bifocals this morning??? Kidding of course! Edit: and your last tree just up above is an ash

This post was edited by j0nd03 on Thu, Oct 2, 14 at 12:54

Yeah, I'm with ya now! Buds'll do it every time. As for leaf morphology, can we agree there is variability? Shagbark and shellbark hickory up in these parts are quite rounded. Both white and green ash are middling, and black ash is narrow. But the trees don't read the books, and sometimes they exhibit their own idea of how they should present themselves.

Truth is, if I couldn't tell one from the other out in the field, it would def. be time to find a new job. But in such cases as that, the whole tree is being viewed, sort of like how some guys can see a car coming down the road from three blocks away and say it's a Ford or whatever. They're not looking at the fine details but rather, the whole picture. This is how I-and I would guess most of you-ID trees 90% of the time.

+oM

Forget about what I just said about leaf arrangement.

For Set #1 and Set #3, leaves come out at the same level, just the opposite.

For set #2, leaves come out alternatively, never at the same level.

For some reasons, I do not see any mature ash trees, but the hickory trees with huge leaves. I do not see any fruits, maybe the birds get them whenever the fruits are almost ready.

The hickory trees are 50' tall or so.... There are many of them in the woods.

If set #1 and set #3 show the same ash, what kind of ash tree is it? Our neighbor planted some ash trees, but the leaves are much smaller and the leaflets are much narrower....

Parallel-set leaves are ash.

Alternate-set leaves look like hickory (leaves don't look right for black walnut), tho I can't guess the species.

Touché, j0nd03 - nicely done. Shoulda pressed harder for the Franklin - call out +om's manhood or some such Packers joke.

I'd venture that the ash seedlings above are Green Ash (Fraxinus pennsylvanica), with the buds sitting on the "shelf" (hemisphere/half circle) of the leaf scar. White Ash (Fraxinus americana) will have the bud inset into more of a Cheshire Cat smile...

There's probably better botanical or moon phase descriptions of these things - or clear pictures...

Either way: RedSun now recognizes opposite versus alternate leaf arrangements! And can tell his/her Ash from a...well...at least from a hickory.

Hmmm, had no idea I was such a target around here! Interesting....

The ash do indeed look like green ash. Almost a certainty, I'd say.

I've got a set of leaves here, given to me by a co-worker. They look for all the world like some kind of hickory, but the leaf margins are entire. That doesn't bode well for their being hickories. Also, at least in this particular leaf, there are but five leaflets. Of all the hickory leaves I did look at, these look most like C. glabra. But that is not a common species up here, and those smooth leaf margins.....that doesn't work either. Any ideas, anyone?

+oM

Show us show us show us.

You are not so much a target as an opportunity. Pedagogy is as pedagogues do.

The Packers stuff comes from the heart. My parents both hail from the Badger State and are proud UW grads. One could inherit worse...