I have heard that some gloire de dijon stocks have deteriorated and don't grow well on their own roots, but i don't have it and have been often tempted, i do have alychymist. But have you looked at some of the teas or tea noisettes that have the similiar look of gloire de dijon? I think there is one that is an offspring, mme. berard, that is similiar but probably more vigorous.

Here is a link that might be useful: mme. berard

Mme. Berard looks like a real beauty, and looks like it gets some better reviews for its health. I appreciate the suggestion. Looks like it might be worthwhile to spend some more time looking at catalogs and rose books--sure beats digging snow off the driveway or cleaning the house!

I ordered Mme. Berard for this winter after much deliberation and can't wait to see the first bloom!
Masha

We grew Alchymist long ago, and I wish sincerely that we had never removed it.
DH wanted repeat bloom in that location. But NOTHING that we've ever
tried there has been the sensation that Alchymist was, during its spring bloom.
"Bloom" hardly describes it.
The thing threw canes absolutely CRUSTED with fat blooms into swags and drapes.
It had good resistance to mildew and rust here, too.
We probably ought to rip out all of the plants that are up there, now, and
re-plant Alchymist.

Jeri

Go, ahead, Jeri...rip them out!

Well, we ARE ripping out at least some of them.
It's part of a wholesale ripping out that will disappear quite a few roses this year.

I want fewer, larger, more self-sufficient roses, which can survive on less water.

Jeri

I think I'm going to get Alchymist and Mme Berard. GdD sounds a little fussy, and I like the more intense colors of the other 2. And while I'm at it, I'm thinking of adding Mme Afred Carrier and Secret Garden Musk and Edmond Proust and Bella Donna and.....

Amazing how many roses you can cram into a yard when you buy them as bands!

I'm all for self-sufficient roses. The ones in my yard seem to be thriving so far with a thick layer of newspaper under mulch and no water over the summer. The newspaper seems to be the trick--soil with newspaper seems to stay relatively moist, even with little to no rain. Spray? HAH! A little baking soda and soap when I get around to it, otherwise it's the shovel for them. They might not grow as quickly or bloom quite as much as those that are pampered, but they're tough little buggers who look pretty good to me. I tell them to suck it up or die, that they are tough little briars, and so far they seem to be convinced. Of course, no telling how they'll do after this last big freeze.

Here in the PNW, neither of these roses fares all that well in a no spray garden. I have had both defoliate completely from Blackspot some years. In a good year they both retain about half their leaves in spite of disease.

Of the two, 'Alchymist' is the most likely to do fairly well in spite of the disease issues. As much as I love 'Gloire de Dijon', it will decline in health if allowed to defoliate from disease every year.

Bear in mind that 'Alchymist' has almost no fragrance to speak of, but if you have a sensitive nose you may detect a "light fresh scent", as the saying goes.

When in good health both are astonishingly beautiful roses,
in spite of their shortcomings.

{{gwi:228576}}

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Photos copyright Paul Barden 2008, All Rights Reserved.

What Paul is NOT mentioning is that the blooms of his own 'October Moon' have much the same character as those of Alchymist, but on a 4-ft or so plant which is remontant.

Jeri

To my nose Alchymist is VERY fragrant. Interesting how different it can be with fragrances.
Olga

I'll have to take another look at October Moon. I have some of Paul's roses already, and they are growing wonderfully. RVR just put a few new ones up on their web site within the last couple of days, so I'm itching to make a rose purchase. I may have to cross Alchymist and GdD off my list if they aren't going to behave themselves from a health standpoint.

lucretia1,

You seem to be a kindred spirit in garden philosophy. I've been on this rose journey for a few years now and still consider myself quite the newbie. I've been trying many different roses of various classes to see which ones will survive/thrive in my no spray garden in blackspot paradise. I have a high tolerance for some imperfection in leaves and some leafloss, but, overall, I think many of my roses look wonderful. I'd be interested to know which roses you have found to be most BS resistant for you. I know we're in different climates, but all this information is really helpful.

Robert

Robert, I'm very much a newbie. I lived in Florida for too many years to admit, and didn't like roses. Sure, some of them smelled ok, but the ones that were available were hybrid teas that had to be sprayed almost daily for blackspot. Too much work for not a lot of return. Then a couple years ago I moved to Washington state into a house with rocks, clay, and weeds for a backyard and started putting in plants (grass is evil). When I saw some of the roses that bloomed in yards out here, I knew I had to try some, but didn't want to deal with the spray issue, so I started with Rugosas. They're incredibly healthy--I love them.

Then somehow I started getting an interest in some of the old roses (I think the blame falls squarely on Paul Barden's website photos!) and decided to try ONE of several different types (alba, gallica, damask, china, hybrid musk, moss, species, etc.) to see what kind of rose might do well in the yard. I purchased mostly band sized plants, expected nothing to happen for several years based on the "sleeps, creeps, leaps" saying. I also expected some of them to die, based on a lifelong belief that roses are finicky problem children. I figured I'd end up with a couple of plants that would do ok, give an occasional bloom, and provide thorny cover for the birds.

They all lived. They all bloomed. They were all beautiful and healthy,and even had attractive shrubbery. Now I'm up to around 100 different plants, and just ordered more.

As far as blackspot goes: I've seen none on the albas, gallicas, mosses, damasks, etc. The only plants that have had any blackspot have been a few of the modern roses, and for the most part it hasn't been too bad on them. I don't know if I've just been lucky so far or am in a sweet spot for weather conditions. Out of all my roses, I'd say less than 5 have had enough blackspot to consider pulling them out, but I want to give them a little more time to mature to see if they'll shake it.

Based on my VERY limited experience, my favorites for heathy roses that can be neglected and still peform are albas, rugosas, gallicas, and damasks. Oh, and hybrid musks. I've also had very good results with Paul Barden's roses. If I had to limit it to the "very best" so far (and considering that everyone's still a baby, this might not be fair), I'd say my best roses for bloom (subjective), health, and attractive plants (also subjective) are Rose de Rescht, Belle de Crecy, Felicite Parmentier, Buff Beauty, Frau Dagmar Hastrup, Baby Austin, and Golden Buddha.

Give me five minutes and I'll change my mind and add more to the list.

Hi Lucretia - I have Alchymist which is very happy here. All of my Kordes roses are excellent here for some reason. I am tempted to get Gloire, but haven't yet. Too many times I've heard it isn't very vigorous. I just adore the look of her flowers though. The climber Awakening is very nice here too. A little slower to get started, but seems very promising. Looks a lot like SdlM. Looks like both came through this awful freeze well too. My poor Cecile Brunner has bit the dust with the latest storm. The snow broke the arbor and snapped one of it's main canes. I was kind of looking for a reason to replace it. A once-bloomer in our very squishy springs and early summers, it balled a lot. I may replace it with Darlow's Enigma or Secret Garden Musk. Not quite sure what to replace it with. I just love Cecile and am a little upset about the casualty. I agree with you about some of your favorites. I adore my Baby Austin! Paul's Dragon's Blood is a winner so far here too, rarely without a flower on it. Just started checking the damage done with this awful storm, we're finally starting to melt. I hope the damage isn't too bad. I protected as best as I could.