Bourbons arose from crosses between a Damask Perpetual and a China. 'Boule de Neige' arose from a cross between a Bourbon-Noisette ('Mlle Blanche Lafitte') and a Trianon Perpetual ('Sappho'). The result is kinda similar to what many of the Bourbons are like, and so 'Boule de Neige' and its siblings (from the same cross) are lumped into that class.

That's just my guess.....

:-)

~Christopher

Kate - I've been confused by the classification of this rose myself. Sometimes I probably don't put enough consideration into how disease resistant a rose is. I had already ordered it from Pickering, because I want a good white older rose and ordered it mainly, because I did think it was a Bourbon and they are recommended for this area. I just looked it up in two different sources. The ARS Encyclopedia of Roses lists it as a Noisette and the Ultimate Rose Book classifies it as a Bourbon and also says to watch for black spot. I'm hoping it will do good, it is really a pretty rose.

Thanks, Sara-Ann. We seem to be the only people on this forum growing (or planning to) the lovely Boule de Neige. I'm a bit nervous for two reasons. Wish I could determine how disease resistant it is. I'm worried that nobody comments on it--though the Hortico site did list it as disease resistant--but then I'm never sure how much I should rely on them.

Which takes me to my second worry--the few places that sell Boule de Neige are mostly sold out now. I can get an own root version that is 1 year old from a good Texas nursery or a 2 year old version --grafted on multiflora (which I like) and supposedly virus-free--but costing more and coming from Hortico. I know some posters claim they have had no problem with Hortico, but others have pulled their hair out over Hortico--so I get nervous the few times I have ever had to order from them because there was no other place available. I'm thinking I'll go with Hortico again--but I won't be at rest until I actually see the right plant, big and healthy, in my hands!

Kate

I'm planning on planting Boule de Neige this year. Jeri grows it for sure and it does very well for her. She has mentioned that some people have much better luck with the Lacharme Hybrid-Noisette 'Coquette des Blanches.' I am in a very similar Coastal So-Cal climate so I'll be sticking with it over CdD. Boule de Neige just about took my breath away the first time I saw it in person.

Jay

Kate, if you search the forum for 'Boule de Neige' you will be able to find posts from this year about this rose. I seem to remember that several people spoke very highly of it in their climate, and that they posted some very lovely photos.

In the 1996 book "The Organic Rose Garden" by Liz Druitt, she has this to say about 'Boule de Neige':

" Of the three seed sisters, 'Boule de Neige' is the only one to have flowers of pure white. Both 'Coquette des Alpes' and 'Coquette des Blanches', also resulting from the cross of 'Blanche Lafitte' (a Bourbon) and 'Sappho' (a Tea), have a pink tinge. Nothing wrong with a pink tinge, but the odd sister out also seems to repeat its blooming a little more often, and if you can only find space for one of these, that's a deciding factor for a long growing season. Midsummer may bring some blackspot and scanty blossoms, but overall the rose does very well in the South. The flowers are deliciously fat with petals, stone white, rounded, and very fragrant. In areas of very high humidity or constant rainfall they may have trouble with balling, but it is a price rose gardeners have always had to pay for loving this kind of floral decadence. The bush can get very large, up to 6 feet tall and eventually as wide. The flexible canes droop over under the weight of dark green foliage and snowball blossoms, which means 'Boule de Neige' is a good candidate as a pillar or pegged rose, though I've seen it most often tangled with other roses at the back of a large border."

Liz Druitt was living in Texas when the book was published, so I assume that she was writing with the Texas climate in mind.

I did notice that the Antique Rose Emporium is selling 'Coquette des Blanches' this year. I don't know if this is the one they always sell, or if they rotate their selections each year. Perhaps if you could talk to someone in their mail order department, you may be able to find out more information about why they are selling CdB instead of BdN, and maybe get more information regarding BdN, at least as far as Texas growing conditions are concerned.

Siblings of 'Boule de Neige' (from the same cross of 'Mlle Blanche Lafitte' X 'Sappho'):

'Baronne de Maynard'
'Coquette des Alpes'
'Coquette des Blanches'
'Lady Emily Peel'
'Madame Alfred de Rougemont'
'Perle des Blanches'

'Mme Francois Pittet' is a half-sib, sharing 'Mlle Blanche Lafitte' as a parent, but the other parent is not listed. 'Comtesse de Rocquigny' is probably related, if not by the same actual parents then by also having Noisette ancestry.

Sometimes it helps to look at relatives when trying to gauge how a rose will do in a given area. So if you can't find others who grow 'Boule de Neige' then perhaps finding people who grow related roses might help you give an idea about how it will do. All I can offer is that I have the mom, 'Mlle Blanche Lafitte', but planted it only this past Summer. It did get hit with blackspot, but bounced back quickly (I'm in NJ with hot and humid Summers, and I don't spray).

:-)

~Christopher

ETA -- I wonder why 'Sappho' was claimed to be a Tea in that reference. Everything I've read of it called it some kind of Perpetual -- Damask, Hybrid or Trianon.

This post was edited by AquaEyes on Wed, Jan 1, 14 at 23:16

Thank you, arbutus and plant, for that additional information about Boule de Neige. Perhaps I should also investigate 'Coquette des Blanches,' but I must admit I'm really taken with Boule de Neige at the moment. I'm glad to hear it does well in Texas--it can't be any hotter and drier here in midsummer than in Texas, I would guess. I did live in Lubbock for 3 years--dry I definitely remember from there. LOL

Kate

I ordered an own-root band of Boule de Neige this fall and despite daily rain and cool temperatures for a month, it is showing no spot. RVR may have sprayed it with fungicide before sending it to me, but even the nastiest of chemicals don't work for long here where it is particularly warm and soggy.

Thank you, Christopher, for more background on the related roses.

Evenie--it is at least encouraging that your little one hasn't succumbed yet to BS.

My German and French are not very strong, but I did read some German and French sites yesterday that claimed Boule de Neige was "very disease resistant." Don't know how much I should rely on such comments, but most of the American sites just don't even mention anything about disease. It is true that Boule de Neige seems to be much more common in Europe; David Austin even offers it in his English catalog, but not his American catalog. Since the Brit and Euros grow it more often, maybe they have more info. available about how it actually grows? I hope so.

I think I did find at least one American site which agreed. The others ignored the issue.

I think I'm going to take the plunge and order it. Can always spade it if it becomes my big failure, after all. : )

Thanks everybody for helping me with this.

Kate

Christopher,

I have a good guess from where the "Sapho (a Tea)" came. In David Austin's book "The Heritage of the Rose" (copyright 1988), he lists the parentage of 'Boule de Neige' as:
"Boubon 'Blanche Lafitte' x the Tea Rose 'Sappho'."
I do not know when HMF came into being, but I am sure if it existed in 1996 when Liz Druitt's book was published, that it contained far less information than it does today. According to HMF, 'Sappho' the tea rose was introduced in 1889, and since 'Boule de Neige' was introduced in 1867, we can see that it was impossible for the tea to be the parent.

I believe that Austin's book "The Heritage of the Rose" was pretty common. It was the first rose book I purchased in the early 1990s, when I only had three rose bushes.

Also of interest to me, is that if you look at the references for 'Boule de Neige' on HMF, the more recent ones call it a Bourbon, the older ones call it a hybrid Noisette and the oldest calls it a hybrid perpetual. The same three classifications are used for 'Coquette des Alpes', 'Coquette des Blanches' and 'Madame Alfred de Rougemont', with the addition of Noisette perpetual. According to references at HMF 'Lady Emily Peel' and 'Perle des Blanches' have been classified as Boubon, hybrid Noisette and Noisette perpetual, with Modern Roses 10 calling 'Lady Emily Peel' a Noisette.

I was really confused about where all the Noisette classifications came from, until I used Google to translate a reference for 'Mlle Blanche Lafitte'. From what I understand of the imperfect translation of the entry from Journal des Roses (1885), they considered 'Mlle Blanche Lafitte' to be almost pure Noisette while the other references on HMF all call it a Bourbon. Vintage Gardens has this to say about 'Mlle Blanche Lafitte' :
"In style like a larger flowered Blush Noisette of even more delicate coloring, Mlle. Blanche belongs to a group which Ellwanger called as The Hybrid Noisette, which shared some of the character of Bourbons...vase shaped to about 5', bear delicious blooms of pale blush, in abundance all year.":

Kate,

We planted Boule de Neige (grafted, from Pickering, listed as a bourbon as I recall) in the public garden here about 1980. I know that it was still there about 5-7 years ago (and is probably still there). It was upright to about 3' but narrower. It was one of the more disease resistant roses coming behind Stanwell Perpetual, Blush Noisette and White Rose of York but still quite good as regards black spot. Yet I remember the leaves looking a little ratty at the height of summer - tan edges sort of thing maybe it needed more water. Overall I would say that it is a tough and reasonably disease resistant rose (without spraying) with medium to small flowers. I like large flowers so to be fair they may qualify as medium which is my small. Hope this helps.

Cath

plant--that all sounds convincing to me, especially since the more I learn about some roses, the more I wonder how anybody knows the true history of them. : )

Cath--appreciate your comments since you actually know about a Boule de Neige that was planted some years ago and therefore can address a mature one. Sounds like my German and French sources may be right--it may have better than average disease-resistance. At least, I sure hope so.

Kate

Tammy Y who lives in heavy black spot pressure East TN has commented that it is a one of her best disease resistant roses in her no spray garden. I know I have confirmed that assessment elsewhere as well because it is on my "roses to purchase" list and roses don't make that list without multiple confirmation as to their black spot resistance!

Anybody heard from TammyY lately? I haven't seen any post from her recently.

Subk I was thinking the same thing about Tammy. I miss her and her Pugs!
Kate, how long is your spring, before it gets hot and your fall, before it gets cold?
My roses definitely look their best during those "in between" windows because the heat and humidity just zap them.
My completely anecdotal evidence shows that in my yard in my zone soil, water and food really DO keep the diseases away (or maybe the last few years have just been good for that). I have a super rich milorganite type soil that a local nursery custom mixes for rose beds (I found it through the rose society). It is heavy and moisture retentive.
So far everything I have put into that soil has thrived. NONE of my HPs nor Bourbons spotted last year. Matter of fact, they all have beautiful foliage still. I have no idea why so I just thank the soil....I deep mulch it with pine bark too.
So many of the old rose books I've read discuss the importance of soil, soil, soil...a deep cool run of soil. And lots of food. (They also advocate arsenic and other nasty stuff for pest control, HA).

Susan

subk3--thanks for your reassurance.

susan--we have a fairly long spring and autumn around here, and lots of my roses like to show off during those cooler time periods.

Since I've been gardening for over 30 years and also adding manure and mulches and other stuff periodically to the soil, I'd guess it is in pretty good shape by now. Keeping up with the water needs is the biggest problem here--July and August are usually in the 100s. Most of my roses (and the gardener) start peetering out by August. : )

Kate

Boule de Neige Bourbon is a lovely old rose. Mine are 3 year olds. They were purchased own-root bands from Rogue in Oregon.
They are planted in a protected well amended portion of my garden. They are beautiful roses. Lite scent similar to my Grandma's powder. Only a tad of BS in October which is ok by me. They are approx. 4-6' tall. One is 4, the other 6.
I don't know how cold your area gets but here the first week in December was in the low teens; which is why I think this area is a 7 zone mostly. This rose doesn't die back with that abrupt low temp.
Good luck and give it a try.