There are some sensible comments here, Patrick. And one would do well to consider them. I made some mistakes when planting trees upon the completion of building our home 13 years ago. No other plant should be more thought out than a tree before making a decision on which one, and where to position it. You are right that small lots should have small trees, and not ones that impose on the neighbors. I wish I had understood that 13 years ago.

There are a lot of Chaste Tree (Vitex) here in my neighborhood, and each and every one of them are beautiful, healthy, mannerly small trees. And they are often the favorite tree in the yard of those who grow them here.

Randy

Your descriptions of the trees are breathtaking. Wish I could describe some of our Western varieties with such clarity.

Hey, I feel your pain about diseased trees. There is a row of small oaks in the community area that lines the sidewalks in my neighborhood. They all got a wonderful case of leaf spot, which caused them all to drop leaves like crazy. Most of which seemed to have chosen my roses as a place to lodge. I have been out raking oak leaves, which are COVERED!!! in black mildew and yellow spotting, and bagging them up to be taken away almost daily.

I am the only neighbor in the neighborhood who is a gardner, and who is aware that plants even GET diseases. Thus I am the only one raking leaves. I sprayed the tree at the foot of my front walk with ortho rose pride, and it seems to have bounced back and while it dropped the infected portions of it's leaves, it seems to have recovered and has temporarily stopped.

I say temporarily, since the tree next to it in front of my neighbors sidewalk has come down with the yuck and is dropping black coated leaves all over. All it would take is a good rainstorm and we're back to where we started.

The neighborhood association takes at least ten-fifteen calls before they will even THINK about doing anything, after which they hike our rates pleading poverty.

It's cheaper, easier and less frustrating to deal with it myself, although I can't exactly call that cheap, easy or not frustrating, since I have um... Angel Face, Tropicana and Pink Peace, who you just need to breathe on with bad breath to get outbreaks of ugly.

I so feel your pain.

A garden without trees of some sort would indeed be a bland, incomplete place.

The only slight disagreement I have with Patrick is concerning the first two trees he recommends. Alto there possibly may be some newer Vitex cultivars that bloom all season long, I've never seen them. Mine are lovely when in bloom, but that bloom lasts less than a month. Because of their growth habit, I think of Vitex as being more like a large shrub than a tree.

When I gardened in another another state, I really regretted planting Crepe Myrtles. They provided lots of long-lasting bloom & some of them had great fall color. The problem was that mine spread from the roots almost to the point of being invasive. After a few years, I was constantly pulling up CM plantlets -- some of them considerable distance from the original plant. Initially I potted them up for friends & charity plant sales, then eventually got aggravated & just started whacking them down.

You didn't mention my FAV; the 'Bacon' tree. Blooms last one (1) day a year in Iowa and then they look like bacon.

Very purty none-the-less. I have an odd colored one; 'MAXINE MERRILL'.

I think that some trees are fine ---- in other people's yards. I wish we had more morning sun, but we will work with what we have.

Congrats Patrick on the death of the old sun hog!

F.L.

Patrick,
I'm sorry to hear that you have been receiving negative feedback. Let's face it--some people want the world to be their very own clone. Myself, I like a lot more diversity of opinion--much more lively that way.

I have a small property--not much room for trees, but I still managed to squeeze in 17 of them. And I had a monster Sycamore taken out--it was covering my entire backyard (no roses!) and beginning to look rather dangerous. I don't apologize for taking it out--there is no law (moral or legal) that says we must have completely shaded lawns. I still have 16 trees AND I can grow roses in my backyard now. That doesn't sound unreasonable or environmentally reckless to me. Wanting some sunshine (for roses or anything else) shouldn't justify someone attacking you or anyone else--definitely over-reaction!

Kate

Hi Patrick
This is a very good post. I looked up the trees you listed so that I could see pictures. They are all very nice trees. I have been trimming a maple that was planted before I got here because it is on the corner and hangs over two neighbors ( and also shaded my roses).
Samuel

That was a very interesting post Patrick. I agree and disagree with it to an extent. With serious loss of our natural forests and large old trees as well as the rainforests, we are in desperate need of the large trees. They are the only thing standing between us and global warming right now. Without them it doesn't matter what we do to save the earth, it will still be lost.

However, on the other hand, with property lots getting smaller and smaller and houses being built larger and larger, there is no room for these wonderful large trees with or without a rose garden. Hence more and more understory trees are being planted instead of the large shade trees if there are any planted at all. In my area, if you want to sell a house, especially right now, a large shade tree will sell the house, with or without the rose garden.

Now, down to the nitty/gritty. I love roses too. Of all the plants in my garden the rose takes presedence. However, I'm fortunate enough to own a somewhat large lot and can also have those large trees. I realize there are few who might be as fortunate. I have 11 large shade trees ranging from beech to oak to maple to ash to fossil and a couple of others. I have almost a dozen understory trees such as dogwood, Japanese maple, cherry. I also have Vitex but use that as a large shrub. I also have a Japanese varigated willow that I keep as a shrub.

Yet, I still have much room for my roses and keep right now, about 200 roses with more coming each year.

My thoughts are that before planting a tree (they shouldn't be bought in a whim, EVER)each person should evaulate where the tree will be, what performance you want from it, i.e. shade, protection from wind and elements, wildlife, screening, etc., where the morning, afternoon and evening sun hits and where your flower beds are.

All my roses are in full sun from dawn to dusk. Roses such as Gruss an Aachen, most of my polys anyway, seem to prefer a little shade in the middle of the afternoon. At least my Gruss an Aachen especially, hasn't performed nearly as well since I put it in full sun. It's also a very hot sun, with no shade or cooling of any kind. Most of my large trees don't shade the roses at all but they do provide a cooling of the air as it passes through them. The trees not only make the air feel better to me, but my roses seem to perform better when they are closer to the trees. It has to do with subclimates, I'm sure.

I know the large shade trees are a problem for a lot of people. Most properties don't support them anymore and that's quite the shame of it. A lot of planning needs to go into the garden before one can be planted. In my garden, the closet two shade trees are 50 feet apart, with most of them closer to 80 feet apart. The sun hits my house and rose gardens in a way that even mature trees will not stop the sun from coming in. But they will cool the air and take the beating sun away. They will also provide a spot for me to escape the sun and provide food and shelter for the wildlife and the outside utilities of the house.

I have visited some rose gardens that didn't have trees, where the roses sat in the beating sun. I honestly didn't enjoy it as much since, being fair skinned, the sun did such a number on me and there was no escape from it that I finally didn't enjoy the rose gardens.

I want my roses, but I want my trees too. I guess I want Utopia.

Patrick:

I also quite enjoyed your post. Let me just say briefly that in general I enjoy all of your posts and I think any attack on one another on a gardening forum really defies reason. Our exchange of ideas is supposed to be informative and pleasurable but not a blood sport. I can't imagine why anyone would take such great exception to what is put out there effectively for discussion purposes.

Okay rant finished. Since buying our house I have planted many trees. Probably too many. Just shy of 20. So I'm quite comfortable with the fact that we have cut down two birch trees, a snowball tree and a very mature lilac since 2001. They needed to go. Period.

Finally I'm really excited to see that crepe myrtle grows in your zone. I thought they were only tolerant down to Zone 7. I don't have room for another tree no matter how small at the moment but I will make a note of that in my gardening journal.

Thank you.

Kate

Again - aren't there (numerous) roses out there that are just about MADE for climbing trees?

I'll be trying a couple (mme alice garnier, ghislaine de feligonde), but if people would like to recommend some more I'll be interested in trying another one or two. IF they have fragrance.

For example, was thinking about rosarium uetersen (sp?) to grow up a japanese raisin tree. But I heard in one place it smelled like juicy fruit and another that it has hardly any fragrance, so given my natural ambivalence I've decided to wait til I can be certain.

I love trees! That said, I have tried to be careful of the size of the trees I have chosen to plant in the open area I have. I also have a tree I would like cut down- because it is large and leaning from some past injury and is too near my house. A couple other pine trees are crowding some gorgeous, very large, native hollies, so I would like them removed. The cost of removing trees has kept me from doing anything so far, and I hope a hurricane doesn't come through and drop that tree into my house. I have some crepe myrtles planted that will eventually provide some shade in front, and some more to provide some shade in back. The rest of my lot is completely wooded- mostly pine trees, also hollies (my favorite), gums, oaks, and maples. Down in a swampy area, I planted a cypress tree that I started from seed at our favorite campground. So far, it has done well and I hope to have some "knees" eventually in my swamp. I have planted a couple birch trees in the woods, also a southern magnolia, and a row of Leyland cypress between our lot and the neighbors. I need to get some dogwoods- there is not a single dogwood in my woods!
Personally, I hate to see trees cut down for little reason or to make room for developments. Cutting down a tree that is diseased makes sense, or one that is too large for the area it is in, too near the house, etc. If I do eventually get those pines removed, I will feel bad about it, but I won't feel as if I have not done my share as far as planting replacements.
Good luck w/ all your tree decisions, Patrick- no one can make them for you, and a reasonable attitude should not have to suffer from someone else's unreasonable one. Brandy

Patrick,
I hope you didn't consider my response an attack. I also want sun for my roses and I am lucky enough to have a larger lot so I can have trees too. Privacy and quiet are important.

It has become almost heart breaking to watch the continual bulldozing of the natural areas here. One day a forest - a few months later a development of Mcmansions without a tree to be seen.

Your list should include Redbud and Dogwood.

Patrick, I was happy to see your original post. We just bought a house on a very narrow lot-- the back 2/3 is a wild area densely treed, sloping down to a tidal wetlands. THAT 2/3 of my lot is restricted-- plant nothing, prune nothing, mow nothing, remove nothing-- natural! Of course, that was an attraction. But two trees had been crammed into the back yard--a Bradford pear situated so it would crash into the master bedroom during the next hurricane, and a stuggling magnolia planted atop a big evergreen and fence. We promptly removed both. We explained to all our neighbors that a rose garden was coming, so they'd know why we took out the two young trees.

I like you Patrick!!! You are a colorful character on these
here forums.