First flushes from new bare roots? Meager.

I wanted to plant a white garden bed for my daughter's wedding. It was to be held elsewhere but we were planning a next-day breakfast here. As it turned out, her wedding moved some distance away and we did not hold the breakfast after all.

But meanwhile, I planted some fragrant white hybrid teas, 'Pope John Paul II'. (I highly recommend this rose, BTW, for a combination of cutting use and impressive garden presence.) Someone suggested to me that since I am in a hurry, I would do well to plant roses that are grafted on fortuniana rootstock. It turned out to be excellent advice. Normally I prefer to grow roses on their own roots, but own root roses would still be toddlers at this point. I planted those roses last spring. Today they are huge and full, and just coming off the peak of their third magnificent (and fragrant) flush. I've just never seen anything like this before.

I do grow Munstead Wood (grafted on Dr Huey), and I love it. It blooms well in cycles and is as fragrant as it is lovely. But I don't think it will give you what you want as soon as next spring.

Here are some suggestions, though.

Buy a few potted, not bare root roses. Get them in gallons, not 6" liners

Plant bulbs that will bloom at the appropriate time, and plant them with a lavish hand. Think hundreds, not dozens. You can get a lot of impact from, say, 300 'Menton' tulips.

When you are close to the actual event, go to your local nursery and buy blooming flowers in gallon pots, then sink the pots into the ground.

Succulents are very fashionable for weddings right now. So are peonies. So are hydrangeas (though they are more summer blooming than spring blooming).

Anyway, my best wishes to you, your mother, and the bride and groom for a lovely and happy wedding.

Rosefolly

Thanks for the ideas Rosefolly

I was thinking of getting a few of the 5g's of older munstead's. The lower garden is really not the place for a thirsty Austin, but was thinking of leaving them in bigger pots with holes drilled through them (like Jeri's gopher pots) and sinking a couple of them where can water easy for the winter to early summer.

She has not broken the idea to her mom yet (son will be having a fun in laws weekend..lol)

Earlier in spring and the garden is full of bulbs already and the fruit trees are a beautiful sight too when in bloom. Was going to pick up a couple of extra pretty peach trees.

A couple of years from now, the yard and house should be incredible, just not quite yet

Kippy -- I think the advice to plant on Fortuniana might be very very good. But I think you might have to plant NOW to hope for much.
One thing -- When I saw pix of Munstead Wood, I lusted after it, but I passed, because Austins are such water hogs here, and I'd bet money it'd be chlorotic in my garden.
How about, instead, looking at some of Tom Carruth's purples (which like our climate) -- or a bunch of plants of International Herald Tribune, which LOVES it here, and never suffers from Chlorosis?

Jeri

I second Jeri's suggestion for something else. Since I'm into fragrance, I researched on Munstead Wood: Terryjean in zone 5b warned about its getting big later with far-reaching arms. It's very thorny.

Austins can be cute in 1st year, but get really big later. My kid wanted me to kill 6' x 6' thorny Radio Times for her birthday, but I spare its life by chopping it down to 1' x 1', just because of its great damask scent. I'll move away from the house, so it won't poke anyone with its far reaching canes.

Kim Rupert's Purple Buttons has that color. I bought Kim's reddish-mauve Lauren since it won a cut-flower category, I can't wait to mix it with yellow and pinks in a vase.

Thanks for the ideas.

I was thinking about it some more today and I think I will still get a pair of munsteads for the location I had planned on for them already, just will buy larger plants instead of bareroots. We had gone to the nursery and she liked Munstead along with more HT high center form roses (not so much my thing-and seeing as our now happy Don Juan is putting out some incredible flowers-I might try cuttings off him)

But, for the zone I was thinking about adding a few in larger pots, I am going to rethink what I want there. I am going to plant for what I want the area to look like, only stick with a more white (iceberg) pallet. I can add color after, and since most of the found roses I want are on the pink side, the pink hints in the iceberg will look good. And yet not so pink that she dislikes it(she is not a pink fan) The fruit trees will all still be pink or white, nothing I can do about that!

Did visit the locals today, I am going to have to take a drive if I want to put in the fruit tree I want (no one has one here)

Strawberry, sure wish I could steal some of your big Austins...I have a place that I need a couple that will get to a good 6' tall/wide-a one foot rose here is either a .50 cent mini from the grocery store, a new cutting, or on it's way to the green waste bin.

I think we are going to fill a couple of zones in the lower garden with some DNA sample roses (good way to keep people from hopping the fence more than once) I am thinking that I will put one of my once blooming cuttings from this year in a corner down there this week. I want to make sure the neighbors dogs stay in their yard.

Rosefolly's absolutely correct. The first year after I planted 'Munstead Wood' as a grafted bareroot, I was convinced it was a minirose and the wrong rose. It has taken it 3 years to reach its glorious, perfumy potential. I can see why you want it for your daughter's wedding, though...it's color is perfection.

Thanks Terry Jean!

The ones at the nursery come home at 3' wide, figured that would give me a better chance at having flowers for the wedding. But I am wondering if they pick early spring, if I could move a few in the green house after a short rest and get them started early.

If you're thinking of where I think you're thinking of, take a look, when you pop em out of the pots. They may be growing in a lot of peat moss. That could really retard them.

Jeri

Jeri,

The ones I have already gotten from the same place have all had a pretty gritty soil mix, no signs of lots of peat moss. Some of the popular ones seem to have been in the same pot for years though.

I am still debating what to do, hoping the kids decide what they want to do so I can figure out what direction I should head.

When I put 'CPM', an apricot Austin climber in the ground, it absolutely exploded the first year and has continued to advance its territory every year with new basal canes. I have clematis growing through it and it's very sturdy. It might be a candidate for that spot you want to keep the dogs from running through. Be warned, though...even in my Zone 5 it is a big rose. I found a 3-panel trellis that I use to help support the canes and it works well.

TerryJean is right about CPM. Mine is own-root planted in April. Now it has 6' spreading horizontal canes. I'll find a trellis and tie the canes up. Warning about CPM: it's a shy bloomer in alkaline soil, needs lots of potassium via horse manure to give blooms. It's stingy on me (even with horse manure), on Kim's friend, on Jay-Jay in the Netherlands (his soil pH is 8). Its bloom color in my alkaline soil is blah: beige, rather than orange like Austin catalog's.

I found this pic. of Munstead wood in zone 6 with the dimension of 170 cm x over 200 cm, which translates to 5.6 feet by over 6.5 feet wide. It's reported to be very thorny, which would keep animals away.

Same with Crown Princess Mag. it's described as low-thorn in Austin category, mine is quite thorny. Unfortunately I went by the category rather than another person's quote of her killing 3 CPM's since it's thorny, and she wanted more room for perennials. I'll need a trellis to tie CPM up.

Here is a link that might be useful: Size of Munstead Wood in zone 6, Romania

Thanks for the idea of the CPM, I would love to have one but not for the dog zone.

If you had a yard made up of 3 squares: the first square would be the house and upper yard, the next 2 squares the lower garden. The first of the lower garden square only has a strip about 12' wide that is close to level, the rest is hillside and a terraced garden. The last square is more level (still a slope) and half of it is dominated by the neighbors oak tree (California Coast Live Oak) That last section we do very little with because of the oak. It has a few fruit trees and bulbs. We have trouble with the fence hoppers at the street corner and the dog zone is the other corner. These are the zones I want to plant thorns. But they will get little care from us, thankfully both neighbors water excessively. I don't think either is a good austin zone and actually have cuttings from a once bloomer to put in those areas. The backside of our yard is by a condo association that is having trouble with the Jr High kids using their lawns to hang out (smoking etc) We have planted a row of citrus there, so no roses will be going on that section. Once I get a new garden shed built, I will consider putting a cpm or some other climber by it (it gets a lot of extra water from the neighbors there)

Overall those two garden sections are not areas I would consider planting a thirsty austin in. That is why I thought If I put them in bigger sunken pots with root holes added, they would be happy for a few wet months and could be moved before it dries out here.

I would be interested in hearing other zone 9/10 peoples sizes on Munstead. Thinking zone 6 is really different growing conditions.

Looking at that picture I see I'm going to have to move my Munstead Wood, not far, just a couple of feet, but just so it won't read out and grab me as I walk by. It's just starting to send out the long arms. This is the first year it has done that. I wonder where that tendency comes from? It is in a lot of Austin roses.

Rosefolly

Folly, Austin roses were bred in the North of England, where they get fewer hours of daylight than we do, at least here on the West Coast -- and, probably, a longer growing season, too.

Clair Martin observed that Austins said to be under 4-ft. might stay around 5 ft. here in Southern CA, but anything said to be taller than 4 ft. would probably become a "Jolly Green Giant" here.

I suppose we shouldn't be surprised. Our Tea Roses can make 8 ft, and many HPs are climbers for us.

Jeri

I just purchased a Munstead Wood yesterday - WHOPPEE!!! Think it should get some afternoon shade for those dark blooms, or full sun ok? And after Strawberryhill's photo, I'm rethinking my spot - just in case!

You son is wise to avoid spending a fortune on a wedding. The marriage is what is important, not the wedding.

This passed weakend we had an at home wedding. My husband's neice tied the knot here. We had about three months notice. So no time to grow out bands or 1 gallon plants.
So we purchased perennials in bloom 2 weeks before the wedding. With wedding looking fabric I made covers for the pots. then scattered them throught out the garden. In the next week or so they will be planted.
Guests complimented how full and colorfuk the gardens were.
Since we are experiencing a drout the weather was gorgeous so we had outdoor reception..
Hope my pot covering idea might help.
Have fun.
Jeannie

David Austin is in the midlands, very different to northern England. It's not the amount of daylight or even sunlight that makes them grow bigger it is the temperature.

I would argue that all three--length of daylight, intensity of the sun's rays, and temperature can cause roses to grow larger. Note the huge vegetables that are grown in north Alaska where summer days are 23 hours long for a short period of time. How about greater sun intensity on a plant (or sunburning human) the closer one is to the Equator. Sunlight is necessary for photosynthesis. Warm temperatures (not blistering heat) for a greater part of the year allow a longer growing season, and that will in turn cause a plant to grow bigger. These are reasons, I'm sure, that most of the roses grown for commerce in the US are grown in Texas and California. Diane

And britain is further north from the equator than the US. We have more hours of daylight in the summer than you do. Nothing to do with daylight hours that makes your roses grow bigger. I was pointing out that britain doesn't have shorter days than you, we do however have lower temperatures as we are further north.

Jeri's suggestion for Intl. Herald Tribune is great. I would get that rose to plant in front of your MWs. The plant is always blooming. Just like good old Gruss An Aachen, it's dependable here. The color and texture will be great with the flowers of Munstead. I like shorter roses at the base of taller DA roses to provide a fuller look in the garden.

Int'l Herald Tribune is a nonstop bloom machine at least, it is in SoCal.

Jeri

caldonbeck - good try! I've been trying to explain this for over 12 years on this forum, with notable lack of success :) Roses generally grow larger in Southern California because they don't (and don't have to) prune them :)

Don't let it get to you!

Best wishes
Jon

Jon,

I am a bit confused; are you saying when you lived in California you did not have to prune your roses so they got big but while living in the UK you have to prune.

Can you explain why I don't need to prune my roses?

Sure would save me some time-but would hate to hurt the plants by not pruning.

Kippy -- Jon is correct.

There is only one real reason for pruning roses in our part of Southern California:
They Are Too Big. You Want Them To Be Little.

That's it. Period.

For the rest, all you really need to do is remove any dead growth, and give them an overall deadheading. Then go in and have a nice cup of tea and enjoy a book.

We really, really, really love taking big bouquets of roses to rose society meetings in January, February, and March, when all the folks who dutifully pruned have none.

:-)

Jeri

Jeri,

Now that I am totally confused, I did prune the roses last year, although only to a couple of feet and just on a few roses. We followed what the rosarian said, strip the leaves and lightly prune 2-3 feet-different for climbers.

In England (and other cold places) are they just pruning to remove damaged and dead wood from over wintering?

And do you prune/thin to open your roses up a bit? Mine seem to need something when I dead head to the abscission point (I end up with 2 canes from each dead heading)

I think pruning is more of a style/space issue, unless you live in Northern lattitudes where winter die-back means you have to prune out dead wood.

I like to prune my roses in a similar style as I've seen in England because I have a smaller, closely planted garden and I like the look of full, round self-supporting bushes. You get more blooms in less space that way, with less need of staking. In my area I have full winter dormancy and the roses lose their leaves completely, while in California I would guess your roses don't ever go dormant or lose their leaves unless you strip them when you prune.

Regardless of your pruning style, you should prune out any dead or diseased canes, cut below any winter die-back, and remove older less productive (woody) canes.

I don't know what they do in England. I've only gardened in Southern CA -- which as Jon says, is different.

We grow for the most part Teas, Chinas, and Noisettes.
They don't have any form of winter dormancy (tho they may go into a form of dormancy in very hot weather, without water).
For that reason, they do not store their energy in their roots as the European roses do. Thus, they do not respond well to removal of their painstakingly-built-up structure of twiggy growth.

What ever the rosarian told you, it is NOT necessary to prune where you are. It would be necessary to do that if you were trying to produce long-stemmed roses for exhibition. But if that is not your goal, the MOST pruning I would do is topping some of the plants, and removing any dead canes.

Here is a Red Radiance which, as it is shown here, had not been pruned for AT LEAST 50 years. It is easily 10 ft. tall, so you may judge the width. (It is possible there are two plants in there, because an old walkway stops there.)

This rose long long ago began to sucker, so it is now about half Red Radiance, and half Ragged Robin. But pruning it back, now, would probably kill it.

Does it look un-healthy?

{{gwi:320145}}

Come to the Stagecoach Inn pruning demonstration, in July, and learn about the "non-pruning" of mild-climate roses.

Jeri

In England, unless you're really old school (and in my opinion misguided) you would just give a light trim and take out any weak growth. More of a tidy up than anything else. It is usually down by about one third just to stop them getting ever larger. The oldies whop them down to 6" which is just crazy. Old roses you would generally just leave alone except to tidy up, hybrid teas are usually pruned harder. I don't think you ever NEED to prune wherever you are, it's only aesthetic reasons. jon_in_wessex, I was getting annoyed :-D Seen it so many times on here, they don't grow as big in england 'cos they have shorter days I feel like shouting look at a map lol.

Okay thanks!

From my only visit to England, it was very very green in summer as compared to SoCal, we turn brown from April til after the first rains in the fall. So more cloudy and rainy days would have an effect. Coastal gets

I remember the rose gardens in Denmark (castles-historical parks-Tivoli) were always pretty too, still some green but coming in to fall, usually went back this time of year for Grandma's birthday. And most times left before the first real cold spell.