SOS: managing Baronne Prevost, La Reine, Paul Neyron

14 years ago

I'm wondering how to deal with these 3 monsters in a small formal rose garden here in lower Zone 8. The bushes have been in the ground 2 years. They're planted in 6'-wide beds that border both sides of a brick walk.

Baronne Prevost: Pruned the canes to 3' in March. Through the summer, the canes grew to 6', but with little re-bloom.

The canes became so tall and unruly, that I trimmed them back to about 4', only to have them grow back to 6' again.

There are 6 BPs planted in a 6'x16' bed, which seems a bit crowded for this super-vigorous rose.

Since there's no room for pegging or trellising, my strategy was to prune the bushes to be shrubs.

Now it seems like I'm having to cut the canes back about once a month. Am I sacrificing bloom in the name of keeping the bushes down to a managable size?

The situation is similar with Paul Neyron and La Reine: Canes that want to grow to 8', few repeat blooms.

I work for the owner of a private estate who is very particular about the appearance of his garden, including where things are planted and how they are maintained. While I may disagree with some of his choices in the rose garden, it may take an act of congress to change his mind on where the roses are planted.

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AquaEyes 7a NJ

8 years ago

last modified: 8 years ago

Back when Hybrid Perpetuals were new on the scene, most gardeners were happy with just a modest Autumn repeat with scattered flushes (or scattered solitary blooms) after the first flush. Meanwhile, many Teas would barely stop blooming at all during the growing season -- the caveat was that they were not very cold-hardy. Hybrid Teas evolved as a sort of compromise between the two groups. They were generally more cold-hardy than the Teas but not as much as the Hybrid Perpetuals. And they generally bloomed more often than the Hybrid Perpetuals but not as much as the Teas. There is a great deal of variation within Hybrid Perpetuals, being as the group became a catch-all for anything which had even minor rebloom and that was not one of the other repeat-blooming classes (Bourbons, Portlands, Chinas, Teas).

Of the three you mentioned by name, I have only 'Reine des Violettes'. Mine is three years old now, and didn't really start to "get going" until last year in terms of growth. It has a first-flush along with all the others starting in late May (for me, last year), then a second-flush in July, then a third flush in late August into September. The second flush is the smallest, the first the largest, and the third somewhere in between. Mine grows as a climber against the railing of a raised deck. I think it wants to be kinda sprawly to be grown as a free-standing shrub, but that's just my preference. By growing it with support and training its canes more toward horizontal, I get more flowers per flush, so that's why I do it.

Also, keep something in mind about the oldies versus the Hybrid Teas. I've often heard some gardening friends say "oh, it blooms all summer long" when talking about a particular Hybrid Tea. If you investigate further, that "blooming now" will include times when only one flower is on the bush. Hybrid Teas tend to produce larger, but fewer, blooms than some other types. The Hybrid Perpetuals my have fewer periods of bloom, but more blooms per period. It's not a case of one being better than the other -- just different. That's why I have a bunch of types of roses in the garden, including once-blooming oldies.

:-)

~Christopher

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Comments (8)

anntn6b
14 years ago
Are they on Fortuniana?

I don't think I can wrap my mind around a Paul Neyron that's that tall. Wowsers.

You're going to need to get some rethinking in about where the next buds come from. For both Prevost and Neyron, very often the next blooms come from buds that develop just below the previous bloom. When you cut that bloom-wannabe area off, it will take some recovery time to spur bloom bud reappearance.

They've almost got to be on Fort.
jerijen
14 years ago
Out here in Coastal SoCal, Baronne Prevost is the single most successful HP we've grown.
Our plant has been here 15-20 years. It HAS to be virused, but we've never seen it.
It grows and blooms wonderfully, and is only rarely touched by fungal disease.
It's twice been overridden by English Ivy, and more or less left for dead, only to emerge triumphant
when the ivy was curtailed.
But we grow it as a rather lax climber, with canes maybe 7-8 ft long.
Early-on, we did try pruning it back, but it died back and sulked. Left alone, it's a star here.

Jeri in SoCal
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I should have mentioned I've grown Paul Neyron before. Ghastly thing was a rust bucket of the worst order. Also badly afflicted with rose mosaic virus. He gasped along for many years but finally went belly up. Rarely bloomed (and the flowers he had were not the big beauties he is capable of producing when happy) on an ugly, sickly plant that never grew very big. The comparison with my results with Baronne Prevost is striking. Another really good pink hybrid perpetual for me is Marchesa Boccella. Very clean and heathy. Paul Neyron has a bad reputation in the hot areas of Southern California for good reason. On the other hand my local botanic garden (about a mile and a half away) has an offspring of Paul Neyron crossed with R. nutkana called Schoener's Nutkana and it is a tank of a plant. BIG single flowers (repeat bloomer) and healthy as a horse. I've checked those leaves throughout the year looking for rust, and haven't found a trace. And I've checked all their plants, the one in a very shady spot and the ones in the sun. R. nutkana must have done a great job cleaning up the rust tendencies of Paul Neyron. Melissa
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Sherry, that rose is SO BEAUTIFUL. Thanks everyone! I heard back from the curator, he said that my photo of Baronne Prevost was right, but that while the rose I saw was labeled as Marchesa Boccella, you guys were right that Marchesa was mislabled. He said there used to be a Marchesa there, but that it must have died. He said they check the labels every couple years and just hadn't noticed that one. So the rose I took a photo of that I thought was Marchesa, is actually Marchioness of Lorne. He also said that Baronne, Bourbon Mme. Lauriol de Barny and Marchioness of Lorne both do reasonably well at their garden (and this climate) ... and probably would do ok for me. By the way, he also recommended Reine des Violettes and Souvenir de la Malmaison as being pretty tough (I already have those, so yay!) He also recommended York and Lancaster (damask) and Porland from Glendora (Porland) , if you're curious! :)
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Thanks for the input, everyone. I would be willing to mound some topsoil around Paul Neyron if it would help. I have two version of RdV. One is the thorny heirloom imposter from Kedem which is having a dynamite flush right now. The other is some flowerscents thing I picked up at home depot for $12.95 a few weeks ago (we'll see). Molineux's comment about RdV doing well in shade sounds intriguing. I will consider La Reine. Are you talking about the hybrid perpetual? I got Baronne Prevost about 4 years ago and it has never performed very well; it seems to be declining. Rose de Rescht is doing very well. I picked up Jacques Cartier last summer. It has some buds but none have opened yet. Everyone says it is a great rose but it will take a lot to outdo Rose de Rescht. Louise Odier is three years old. Winter hardy but I still haven't had any fragrant blooms. I got Mrs. John Laing, Yolande d'Aragon and Mme Isaac Pereire this spring from Roses Unlimited. I am also considering Gen. Jacqueminot, Indigo, Comte de Chambord and Frau Karl Druschki (not fragrant) along with Paul Neyron. After being burned on some Buck roses (although they were from Kedem), which Bucks are actually hardy without winter protection?
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buford
14 years ago
Ann, I have own root Barrone Prevosts, 3 of them, they are easily 6 feet. I was also wondering what to do with them. I saw them at Biltmore and they were a nice manageable 3 feet and bushy. Mine are all cane. I think Patricia said she pegged hers. I'd have to start from scratch because mine are too stiff right now. I'm going to try it next year.
anntn6b
14 years ago
Buford,
The difference between Biltmore and us is a zone colder and often theirs are cut back severely for spring. Theirs also start growing later in winter and that alone could explain them being shorter. My Prevost usually gets to five feet and is currently in heavy competition with some poison ivy. Birds. Gotta tolerate what they leave behind.
I'd be interested in seeing where the vigor would be redirected in gently arched peggings. I'd guess a terminal area preference.
malcolm_manners
14 years ago
I was once told by Diann Giles, of the former Giles Roses nursery, that the trick to getting good rebloom on 'Paul Neyron' was to cut it back severely after each bloom flush. We've done so ever since, and it blooms reliably every 6-8 weeks. That also keeps the plant under 4 feet tall most of the time.
Malcolm
michaelg
14 years ago
Are these mature plants? As pruned shrubs get older, they should develop more basals and more branching. The greater number of lateral shoots in each flush of growth tends to reduce the average length of shoots and increase the amount of bloom. So if they are young plants, maybe the answer is just to keep whacking on them until they become denser. Or you could try the type of pegging where you bend the long shoot back over the center of the plant and tie its tip to the base of the plant on the opposite side. It will then produce several laterals from the top of the arc.

I haven't grown these varieties, though.
User
8 years ago
I've grown hybrid teas but never old roses. I just bought the ones I have drooled over since childhood in Columbus ohio.

I'm in zone 7 A Tn. Now.

La Reine, Baronne prevost and la Reine des violettes.

How often can I expect blooms ?

Ive read various descriptions seems no one agrees on blooming.

I have an acre so size is not a problem. I have had 2 Souvenir de malmaSan for 5 years and I cannot get them to grow beyond 2' tall.

Has anyone got any advise on caring for them ?

Thank you all for offering this site.

Sherry

SOS: managing Baronne Prevost, La Reine, Paul Neyron

AquaEyes 7a NJ

Comments (8)

anntn6b

jerijen

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