I can't be of any help with your actual design, but I can commiserate with the frustration of the process. I have about 50 David Austin roses in pots that I am trying to place into a cohesive cottage-style garden. Most of these are roses that I have never seen in a mature size, so I'm having to go by all of the various descriptions in my books and on HMF. I know I will make serious placement mistakes when I finally plant these little guys, which I hope I can correct when the time comes.

All of this would be much easier if I had any idea what this garden is going to look like. I have an area approximately 40 x 50 to work with, and it could get bigger if necessary ... it may be necessary, I'm afraid. I think I'm going to surround it with a fence, which means I could put a bed on the other side of the fence, too, if I need more space.

I have planted large numbers of roses before like this, but this particular garden has me practically paralized. Yesterday, I was sitting with my little list of roses and their potential sizes, drawing circles on cardstock so I can work with the roses to scale on my garden graph. Today, I'll cut out the circles, and see what I can do about putting them to paper while watching football.

Hopefully, it helps knowing that you are not the only one with this problem. Winter is coming, and I REALLY want to get these little guys into the ground.

Connie

Years ago I made some amazing blunders about size. Sometimes you can't truly know until you're in the thick of it. I think the Vintage guidelines are a good start. I've found that sometimes rich clay will grow bigger roses than might grow in the same climate in lighter soil. Pruning makes a difference too. Some of my HTs have not been pruned the way they should and are gigantic. One of my worst mistakes is planting roses so that they are falling out into the pathway. This has caused me endless work. Anyway I'm zone 8 with a few snows. I don't believe the kind of snow we get here has much affect on the growth of the roses.
I hope all goes well. I'm sorry it's bugging you.

lagomorphmom, paralysis is no fun. I've been in your exact shoes. People say sometimes we have to just jump in and get wet, but that just wasn't something I could do. The spark had to hit me. You don't say what roses you're planting. Going on what Pam said, is it possible that your snow and fairly mild low temps (z8 can't be too bad, can it?) are really going to effect your size as much as your heat and length of growing season? I think you should err on the large side. Too much space is preferable to too little, and if some roses don't quite fill their space, you'll have room for your companions and evergreens. You can only do so much with colors, I think, depending on how many, how harmonious or contrasting, how soft/strong the colors are that you have. I wrestled with it, reasoned with it and then did it and found that either I did it right or it didn't matter that much - to ME, anyway - in the end, because they look fine together. Interestingly, the roses in my garden now look almost nothing like the plan but not because roses got too big for their space (yet!) but rather because some roses just didn't perform as expected. My learning curve was severe due to my total lack of experience and Florida conditions. My point is that if it's not one thing, it'll be another that will cause you to redo and replace. So don't worry about redoing. I was just talking to a rose friend this morning and she's going to be doing a major bed redo in her 3-year-old garden. I hate to say it, but gardens aren't written/planted in stone. They change, sometimes drastically and evolve - and gardeners miraculously get smarter about what roses are and what they like. So I would say, get inspired by a plan. I think I'm left-brained, too, though not scientific just artistically stunted, so I know what you mean. I'm good at copying though. Start googling garden images and find one that lights a fire in your heart & brain. Don't over-analyze it as to why it will work. Go on faith that it wouldn't have clicked if it won't work. Roses have come and gone but my "inspired" plan is perfect and here to stay. I couldn't be happier with it. Just to give you a clue of my inspiration, the little thumbnail pic I first saw that turned on the light bulb in my brain and the fire in my heart wasn't even what I thought it was when I clicked on it and saw the larger photo but no matter. The inspiration took anyway. It was so exciting. One moment I was frustrated and paralyzed. The next moment I was in nirvana, taking measurements, putting it on paper, proceeding with confidence and determination. You will, too.

Sherry

I did so much of this with the little garden I planted. Hours and hours, I planned placed, measured expected growth, contemplated pictures deciding what should work with what.

Connie, I, too, cut out the little circles and placed them on paper to figure out my layout...then I accidentally switched a couple of tags while potting them up. Ah well...

If I don't like it, I'll change it. Good luck and happy planting.

kay

I was about shocked out of my shoes yesterday when I went to Rose Dango in Dallas and saw the size of Belinda's Dream in their test garden. It was huge, definitely not the size that is advertised.

But then I went to the presentation by Michael Shoup, owner of Antique Rose Emporium, and he stressed be RUTHLESS in pruning - another shock for me, that's not what I've been told! Now he DIDN'T recommend hacking a 10 foot rose back to 3 feet, but instead figure out the size you want to maintain, then prune twice a year (for us that would be February and August)to maintain the size. He also stressed that they transplant easily.

Now please don't kill the messenger!

Thanks for the shoulder, guys. I know very well that I can move things around even in spring, but wouldn't it be nice to put them in their 'forever home' (ha!) the first time. I'm not that bad about plotting generally, I don't think, it's just the stupid deal about the difference of say 3x3 vs 8x5! This is TREMENDOUSLY confounded by the problem of wasted time and difficulty digging holes up here - if I were back by the coast I wouldn't give moving a bush over a couple of feet a second thought (we bought a jackhammer the first summer when we were planting the 15gal trees). Another reason to buy bands - then you only need a hole sized for a gal pot at best.

I also know very well that I should have posted pics for suggestions a long time ago but always think of something better to do than go through pics and endure the photobucket upload. Stay tuned for more "wack-a-doodle" posts this week, if you don't mind ;-) Today I have to get out and get *something* done.

Pam, thanks for the thoughts. I think you're probably right about how long we have colder temps being important than the snow issue, for sure I don't worry about snow damage except when we get a lot and then the ice block melts and breaks branches. Interestingly, there are not a lot of roses up here (Blaze is the only one I see around town) because they grow so well - probably due to ground squirrels as much as lack of interest. Fortunately, I've only had a relatively small amount of gopher damage and in an isolated area. Otoh, the hardware store sure sold quite a few this summer but they are a poor example as the gal that runs the garden center prunes the HTs in front to an inch of their lives in the fall. I've tried to talk to her about it but you know how that goes...

Btw, Pam, I posted a thread on the Roses forum you might want to respond to. I was asking those that got your roses for the first time from Vintage to comment on how they were doing and report any geographic variations on possible disease. Hopefully we'll get some good reports and more will be purchased next season!

Sherry, I know exactly what you mean about the blank page, I'm a good copier, too!

Connie, tempest fugit is no kidding. Hopefully we don't get cold weather until after Halloween...

Thanks again!
Kerin

I think it all depends on your gardening "style". It has been my experience that OGRs grow differently in each micro-climate, soil type, etc. You cannot really predict what their maximum size is going to be in your garden, except that it is probably different than what you think. So, you have to decide if your left brain is going to determine the gardening style. In which case, of course you can prune everybody several times a year to keep them exactly where you want them, in their alloted space.

Personally, this sounds like an incredible amount of work to me, as well as fairly boring. I am a total left brain type (worked in finance, and my house is organized, and I like editing contracts...) for most things in my life, EXCEPT in the garden! There my right brain rules. My 100+ roses grow however they want to. I only try to keep them off of the paths and from blocking the driveway. The results have been (in my opinion) lovely, and the most fun, surprising! The banksie lutea, Cl. Cecile Bruner, Mme Caroline Testout, and Belle Portugaise which I planted in a neat row along the side of our house grew up to the roof (3 stories up), and what is more, intermingled themselves with each other. Pink blooms peeking out from the yellow ones, large globular MCT blooms showing up WAY far away from where I thought the plant was growing, tiny CB roses went all the way around the corner and intermingled with the Blaze rose outside of our bedroom window, etc. This sort of thing also happened elsewhere in the garden, not just climbing up our house. I think it is one of the best parts of OGRs that they don't stay where you put them!

Totally orderly gardens with every bush in its alloted place can, of course, be gorgeous, but I prefer to let Mother Nature take over the planning.

Jackie

In a warm climate, I would space them as if they would grow to the larger of the size estimates you find. Then if they don't get that big, you can fill in with other plants, even other roses.

Rosefolly

I have planted my main garden, then realized that the roses will grow a lot bigger here than most of the 'stated' sizes. It is extremely frustrating to find that out.

I've been wondering what I'm going to do. Ogrose, thanks for posting. I think that's exactly what I'm going to do - just prune the roses to fit my garden! That makes it a lot easier than moving them around, especially after they get big!

Good luck, lagomorphmom. At some point, the planning is the best you can do, and you just have to take a chance and plant. :)

You can prune roses to fit the size you want, but at some point, you lose the natural grace of the plant. I discovered that with my Rosa moschata. Not only that, but the constant work impaired my enjoyment of the rose. Pruning is a good thing (I actually enjoy it), but not, I think, constant pruning.

Just my opinion.

Rosefolly

You make your best guess, and then after a couple of years or so you start moving them around, and then move them again, and maybe again. The best gardens have been worked and reworked until they ummm...you know, work.

Kerin, I think you're worrying just a tad too much. Somehow these things work themselves out, take my word for it. Plan the spaces generously, plant your roses and sit back to see what will happen. Roses never conform to the sizes given in books or on-line. Some will stay smaller; some may get a little bigger. Once the holes are dug, changing roses around is not such a big deal. My husband has transplanted roses in a matter of ten to 15 minutes, assuming I do the watering and mulching afterwards. It actually is a fun process, because you're making things look MORE BETTER. Just discard the idea that nothing can ever be moved, but rather tell yourself that nine times out of ten what you move will go into an area that already has a hole dug (that truly has been the case with me) and it will be a piece of cake and the final result will seem so right that you'll be really glad you did it. The thing is, at this stage it's just educated guessing and it will take some time before you find out whether it will work out or not. By that time you'll have refined your ideas about colors, garden design, etc. and you'll be wanting to move roses around for reasons that have nothing to do with size.

Ingrid

I will add my two cents' worth: cultural conditions make a difference. I have three plants of 'Mme. Antoine Mari'. Two are in full sun and wind and are about 4'-5' high and wide; one is at the foot of a terrace and with some shade, and it's 6'x9'. Roses that are grown in good soil, with some protection from wind, and with adequate water, will get bigger than those that don't. Pruning does a lot to keep roses in certain size limits, but still you can't prune a rose below a certain limit appropriate to that variety and have it be happy. In other words, the growing conditions of your garden will have something to say as to how big your roses get. I hate to admit it but many of mine are rather starved, and creating better conditions for them is a very slow job.
Melissa

Go by the widest width. If you post the list again or email me, maybe I could help with some? I've got a Safrano planted in a spot right by a path because the estimates said 3 feet wide. It's at least 8, but I prune everything that reaches in the path. It looks pretty cool, like a wall of roses. I've had to do the same thing in other spots, and it always turns out ok. But if you do too many like that then you won't have time to keep then pruned out of the paths.

I have a similar problem with Mme Antoine Mari. She's planted about 3' from the path BUT she's on the north side of the house and all of her growth wants to go north toward the path and away from the house. She's like half a rose bush! I guess I could dig her up and move her in, but I think she'll still be a problem. She's been in total shade for a few weeks now (except for an hour or so early in the morning) and will stay that way until the spring time change, and she's getting ready to bloom! Maybe I'll find another place for her.

Sherry