There are places and people trying to preserve roses, thank goodness. We must do our best to assist them. Some of us as common folks are attempting to take part in the Heritage Rose Foundation's collection scheme. I am working towards a complete collection of ramblers. We must do all we can to help support places where there are large collections.

I feel very bad that another commercial rose grower is giving up but it is a symptom of the state of roses today. It is difficult and frustrating to grow roses and it seems that almost nobody does it anymore. This little group here is way out of the mainstream of even serious gardeners most of whom regard roses as way too much trouble. Who can devote a minimum of 20 hours a week to the rose garden during the season as I have for all these years? Sure I get a lot of oos and ahs but deep down inside they think I'm crazy. And I don't even buy or plant new roses anymore much less search for rare or unusual varieties or grow cuttings. I'm just able to keep them from dying. I should say that I used to have over 300 but it is way below that now because I got tired of battling the voles. Anyone in a business associated with roses must really have to love roses a lot to have any chance of success. If they all gradually give up then what is to become of roses? I hope I never live to see that.

Besides supporting those with large collections, it is important that we all maintain and add to our own collections. Those who have tried to keep these roses in commerce are heros; without people like them, history is lost. And without us, they are lost. Our role as rose junkies is esp important in todays economy when so many public funds are falling away. Maintaining a public rose garden isn't going to be high on anyone's list. So it is up to us. The rose rustlers of tomorrow will thank us. I keep a database of all my roses, including where I purchased them and I hope the records survive.

It feels like a personal loss, doesn't it, and I have a fear that at least one other nursery may be in trouble also. Old roses have fallen into obscurity before and been resurrected, and we can only hope this can happen again if we should be so unfortunate as to lose all our supply sources. Hopefully there will be enough of us who will preserve these roses at our homes. Even so, what will happen when we die or have to leave our homes because of old age? Only time will give the answer to those questions.

Ingrid

"Old roses have fallen into obscurity before and [SOME HAVE] been resurrected, and we can only *hope* this can happen again if we should be so unfortunate as to lose all our supply sources. *Hopefully* there will be enough of us who will preserve these roses at our homes. Even so, what will happen when we die or have to leave our homes because of old age? Only time will give the answer to those questions."

Ingrid, you've summed up the sentiment on the forum very well. As a science-based, problem-solving person, I'm not used to depending on hope.

Malcolm, is science anywhere close to being able to freeze rose/plant tissue and then culture it out later???

Lots of rose nurseries probably. One big difference I see among between European and American rosenurseries is that the majority of American rose nurseries produce Own-root plants - while most here produce budded roseplants - that can be kept in cool storage houses.
Some nurseries are better at spotting the trends among rose gardeners - and produce the stalwarts of old garden roses - that never seem to fall out of favor - like Comte de Chambord, Louise Odier, Rose de Rescht.
Many new rose growers fall for the charm and hype of Austin roses - which granted - has produced some stunning roses - but also many dissapointing cultivars ... The big European rose producers Poulsen, Meilland, Tantau and Kordes are pretty succesful - but probably also notice a decline in sales ...
Roses as garden plants are loosing their popularity ... unless the cultivars produced are easy to care for and do not need constant pampering - few new gardeners are willing to put up with these plants. (And especially not the spraying many of the older cultivars - need to look half decent - if they are going to be called "ornamental" garden plants and not sickly ghastly looking bare spotted leaved sticks producing a roseflower once in a blue moon. The "No Spray" organic badsmelling alfafa tea spreading scaremonger brigade - who with their noses in the sky speak of mystery Bermuda roses and tea roses with scents like vacum cleaner bags ... is not going to lure many new gardeners in ...

Also the elitist snobbish rose-socities are loosing members big time over here - unless you own multi acre estates - you are not going to be anything but a rose-nut. A new rose grower hooked on Austins and great hybrid teas like Mr. Lincoln, or Pope John Paul II or Memorial day are looked down upon as inferior idiots ...

I estimate there are about 500 great rose cultivars ... Roses that will thrill gardeners in different areas of the world ... and then there are some very little know gems - that will never be produced in millions ... either because they are not known or they need pampering/spraying ... and then we know what the badsmelly alfafa tea brigade spreading brigade is going to to say ...

Growing roses is easy! If people get good guidance choosing the right cultivars and rose socities became less elitists and more welcoming to people not owning mansions and multi-acre estates frowning upon people spraying Oh dear - fungicides ...... Unless some of these people wake up soon - Roses and especially old garden roses will become - very quiet museums of natural history ... And not spreading the good news about the wonderful easy to grow plants roses can be ... if they keep sipping their tea with noses stuck in history books reading about European Aristocrats who drinks blood and have roses named after them ...

People could also try ordering roses and paying or them? All this sending rooted cuttings is not helping the nurseries ... Cheap is not better - we get what we pay for - and if no one wnats to pay - there will be no sellers...

I love roses - sorry about the doom and gloom - just my observations.

Cupshaped -- I'm in agreement with essentially everything you said in the above post. My hat is off to the (very) few rose fanciers I know around the country who are truly successful no-spray gardeners. Without exception, they have settled on plants only through lengthy (& rather costly) trial and error processes. Unfortunately, I know of other no-spray rose mavens in my own local community whose plantings are virtual object lessons in why NOBODY should EVER grow roses! I look at their rose beds and wonder why they bother -- especially given the fact that there are so many other wonderful, undemanding flowering plants.

Given environmental concerns and the likelihood that current economic constraints will remain with us for some time to come, I tend to think that the recent minor 'renaissance' of interest in roses is nearing an end. Moreover, environmental/economic forces, I feel, are exacerbated by obvious, fundamental societal shifts in how people choose to spend their leisure time.

I must say, though, that I do take umbrage with your denigration of alfalfa tea :). The fact that I'm an avowed user of fungicides does not prevent me from drenching the soil around my roses with alfalfa tea on a regular basis. Do gardeners in your part of the world brew it and then actually SPRAY the stuff as a defense against disease? If so, do they strain it before spraying? If they don't strain it, what kind of spray equipment do they use to prevent clogging?

The following was stated: "Without exception, they have settled on plants only through lengthy (& rather costly) trial and error processes."

Oh? What could be more costly than what spraying may be doing to the person spraying, his/her loved ones, neighbors, and the environment? I recommend utilizing the Precautionary Principle.

Niels, alfalfa can be spread around roses and watered in; no bad smell. My garden is completely organic and I think you know from pictures I've posted that it's not just sticks with a few flowers stuck on top. I don't have my nose stuck up in the air either because I sunburn easily.

I do think that almost every area has some roses (old or new) that can be grown without spraying (witness Olga in her blackspot hell part of the country). Isn't it more a matter of education and learning which roses will do well where you live without spraying? So don't grow 50 varieties but rather five varieties of which you buy multiples, and enjoy a poison-free garden along with the birds, bees and wildlife. Just my opinion which I hope is moderate in tone.

Ingrid

hey Niels, time to join the chill-out brigade? S'true though, i find roses pretty easy, at any rate, compared to the relentlessly tedious grind of vegetables. None of my (admittedly only about 30) roses have ever died on me, even with a laissez-faire attitude.
Roses have also been pretty absent from the many gardening fads and faves over the past century - they seem to occupy a vaguely untouchable place in garden history and culture. I am betting that what is happening to our nurseries is applying to every small nursery, regardless of their speciality. It is hard to compete with massive advertising campaigns pushing fabulous pics of roses or whatever in glossy catalogues and magazines etc. As well as keeping the germ-plasm alive, we need to keep the knowledge going too - a horrifying scenario is seeing horticultural colleges closing too....or selling lots of 'design' courses (10week, high cost, pretty basic)

I ranted on this subject before, and Ill probably continue to rant about it for the rest of my life. I dont like to take my chances ordering online for the same reasons that I dont like to order a plain cheeseburger in the drive-thru lane. I do NOT like the tactics of anonymous customer service people who are shouldered with the responsibility of correcting shipping mistakes, especially when the customer service person knows that they will never see you face-to-face. There are far too many conflicting good-guy, bad-guy reports on several forums regarding some of the larger nurseries, and Id rather get frustrated over what to cook for dinner than which nursery Im going to have to boycott for the next 10 years.

I also truly believe that the only people making scads of money from mail order nurseries are the shipping companies. Think about the basic accounting for a company that requires acres upon acres of land for its businessit doesnt have the normal assets that any other business has, as far as "depreciable" assets like gigantic office buildings, delivery vehicles, etc.theres nothing out there to reduce their tax base on income, and theyd have all of those property taxes to pay every year on top of it. If inventory is valued at the lower of cost or market, then it cant be that large of an asset & its always at risk of being damaged or destroyed. It inherently seems to me to be a very risky, low margin business.

Personally, choosing roses and whether or not to spray is very subjective and personal. I want roses that thrill me, which requires me to spray periodically. I dont want just 5 varieties, and I dont want things that are only reportedly disease free. Ive seen plenty of "disease-free" roses in Springfield that are riddled with BS. When my kids get sick, I give them medicine. Same for my roses. There are adverse effects to EVERYTHING and Im not about to stop driving, using medicine, or cover myself head to toe in 90 degree weather to avoid the sun just because of adverse effects or risks I cannot control. In addition, I would expect local nurseries that I visit to at least attempt to care for the roses they are trying to sell. I dont understand why blackspot-ridden messes are allowed to sit outside and languish, and the nursery still expects us to pay $30 per rose to take disease home with me. Seriously---would any of you send BS infected cuttings to each other? I think not.

The bottom line is that nurseries who are established & have other means of economic support do not find it in their best economic interest to focus on the customer service and inventory selection that would please us the most. On the other hand, smaller companies/growers are striving for exactly those two things, but the market cant support it. It is too difficult to compete with the powerhouses in the current economy. As nurseries fail, the powerhouses scramble to buy their inventory, which leads to larger & larger market share for the few remaining open. Things are not going in a good direction, and I dont have a solution. Its a problem I think about often, because I would love to see us collectively come up with a way to fix it.

I'm afraid, as the OP, I didn't title this thread well. I really was hoping for a discussion on what to do about it (if we had the power to do so).

I keep hearing about the 'oh well, ups & downs of capitalism' but I don't think that fits the problem well. An example of the latter is when a small grocery is bought up by a chain. No matter how sad it is for the 'mom & pop' store, the CONTENTS of their store are usually replaceable.

What we are talking about here is rather like a rare museum having to close and some, we don't know how much yet, of the contents going straight to the trash, never to be seen again.

On the contrary---I think you titled the thread very thoughtfully. It's just that we have such a broad spectrum of individuals in the forum that I think it strikes a different chord with each of us. I obviously went it the direction of the chord I heard. For you, I imagine it is a loss of a different sort; no less profound or disturbing. We're all here because we love something, and perhaps feel a bit powerless against a tide we can't stop.

I haven't been at this nearly long enough to know the inner workings of the ARS, or the wonderful people that make it tick. Could there be some sort of program or endowment started via the ARS where sections of trial gardens are set aside for the preservation of roses we're afraid we'll lose? Perhaps a forum such as this would be a great starting point for a network of people to begin cataloging or identification.....I dunno. Just some crazy ideas.

Awesome, flaurabunda, now that's the ticket - problem solving (if I may say) instead of fatalistic comments about capitalism. Good job!!!

For those of you who want to do something: Vintage Gardens is the largest retailer of OGR and the major supporter of the ARS antique rose garden in Shreveport, LA. They are struggling!!! They are also considering forming a non-profit wing. They are also responsible for much of the research done on roses and a source for the mother plants of other nurseries. The single biggest help you can give is to support Vintage. They are currently selling bands and 1 gallons of mother plants. They aren't cheap and the shipping costs. But with your help, they will stay alive. If we lose them, we are back in the dark ages.

Could there be some sort of program or endowment started via the ARS

*** Pardon me, but (and yes, I AM a member, and a C.R.)
ROTFL.

Jeri

Well, yes, I'm a member also.....but a new one at that. So what's the name of the program within the ARS?

When I read the White Book or the Resources page, it's all about how to organize local chapters, boost membership, have constructive meetings....etc. I know of the ARS gardens in Shreveport and the ARS trial grounds, but I don't see anything regarding preservation of endangered cultivars.

How many more nurseries will we lose??

In this economy more than likely a few more before it's done. I felt when I was closing Ashdown everyone was doing what they could to support us. But when someone loses their job, is worried about losing it or has their retirement income slashed they simply cannot buy roses. And during this recession that was a lot of people.

I got quite a few emails from long time customers saying they would love to place an order but couldn't because someone in the household lost their job etc. I never felt bitter or whatever simply because people werent ordering from us. I knew for many they simply couldnt and that was that.

So sadly during the recession when people simply cannot afford luxuries like roses we will lose more nurseries just like we will lost more independent book stores, small restaurants etc.

So whats the solution regarding roses? To me Mendocino hinted on it when she talked about cataloging collections via groups likes HRF. These days with the Internet a collection can be a virtual collection as much as be a physical one in one place. A database of what roses are in what gardens is IMO just as valuable a collection as a physical garden. How you can you help? Keep records of where your roses come from and when the database comes into existence make sure you register your collection no matter what size it is.

I also think it future we may see hybrids of non-profit rose garden/nurseries emerge. As with any business the more you can diversify your income streams the better. A garden is in a position to do so.

End of the day some nurseries will pull through this and some wont. And when the economy recovers some new ones will start up again to replace the ones like mine that had to close.

In the meantime if you can purchase roses from the ones that remain do so. If you cannot thats okay too. We are all rose lovers regardless.

Roses were here long before any of us put foot on this earth and they will be here long after us. They have an incredible ability to constantly reinvent themselves.

Paul

"A database of what roses are in what gardens is IMO just as valuable a collection as a physical garden. How you can you help? Keep records of where your roses come from and when the database comes into existence make sure you register your collection no matter what size it is."

Paul -- there is such a database now, and it works wonderfully. And both of us are already members, I think. It is good 'ol HMF. For the others reading this post, just make a listing for "my plants" and enter either the individual names one at a time or you can import a list from nearly any other database or wordprocessing program. I keep mine up to date over there, under "Rosaholics Southern California Garden." And they are pretty good about adding new plants as soon as you inform them one exists.

I agree that a database for the purposes you discuss is very important. Now if we could just get more folk to use it.

Kathy

yes, i would like to see a national database in the UK. many older varieties of fruits and vegetables have been lovingly preserved by amateurs for years while I am not aware of any such comprehensive programme for ornamentals, apart from various national collections, has been attempted. Surely, with efficient recording, storage and communications, localised databases - which would facillitate swappings of seeds and cuttings, would be a reasonable idea.

HMF is tremendously better than none at all, and I'm sorry to say that I'm guilty of not adding my own. Thanks, Kathy for the tip that I can use my database to upload - like the Staple's store motto: that was easy!

One thing that Paul mentioned and even grasshopper me knows from this forum, it is also important to keep track of where you purchased your roses to track their history. I don't think that that's available with HMF - not a criticism, just a point on what we're talking about regarding a national database.

Paul & Kathy might have brought up another excellent project. As I understand from friends, HMF is another 'hobby' that's not paying for itself. I paid for my membership because I use the darn thing every day. Is there a way to start a 'HMF fund raising awareness' thread without it becoming an argument about why it should be free (even though Steve foots the bill for the server, connection, bandwidth and not to mention his own time)???

...I took a quick gander and couldn't tell if ARS helps support HMF. Jeri, don't choke, but if they don't, is there a way that they might??? With a little more sponsorship not only would it better support itself, but maybe Steve would then be able to add another field in our listings like where we got the plants. Just a thought...

I just have two thoughts on this and the first is that big roses aren't the only ones to go adios. When you are setting aside a place for your OGR's how about giving the minis a small plot?.....Secondly, about HMF and the ARS. I called the ARS the other day and asked them if they had a data base for members similar to HMF. I mean for what I pay the ARS, there should be something more available to me then just 6 magazines a year. They have the information, they have the pictures, and they have the one thing that HMF doesn't have - the current ARS ratings. Nothing against HMF, but money is short as Paul said. We seniors had no COLA this year and will have none next year. Meanwhile utilities, food, insurance etc. continue to go up. So why should I have to pay 2 orginizations for information that the ARS should make available via their website? Well, that was the argument I made anyway, and the ARS response was less then enthusiastic. When will they learn that the internet is here to stay - even if they aren't...Maryl

What Kathy & Maryl said is exactly what I'm talking about. It's a little tough to keep up on this forum, RC, HMF, the ARS website, 3 kids in school, full time job, DIY house stuff....lol. Anyway, you get the picture. I do log everything in an excel file here at home, including dates planted, where purchased, etc. I also have all of my plants on HMF (as Slugger15).

The problem with user-based, web-hosted information is that control isn't centralized and the info is only as good as the user's diligence. That's why I'd love to see the ARS take an active & meaningful initiative towards preservation, or at least to have a person/committee responsible for cataloging info. The constant focus on membership & exhibiting drives me a bit to distraction sometimes when I think of all the other functions that would seem to be more useful to rose growers everywhere.

I do value my membership, however, for the magazine and the MR12 database. Perhaps something a little more interactive on the MR12 database, where they could tag member IDs to the cultivars? After all, they do seem to be the only organization that has all of our personal information as well as an existing database.

It has occurred to me that we need to educate the public about roses, particularly the easier care ones like ramblers and old garden roses. The big requirement for such an education campaign, of course, is funds for such things as TV commercials, billboards, magazine advertising, etc. But they all cost lots of money, and we don't even have enough to support the nurseries we love. It seems to me that a photo or video venue would be useful for such exposure. Hmmm, anyone noticed lately how EVERYONE is posting videos on YouTube? Has anyone ever looked for rose videos on YouTube? There are some there but not many. Maybe some exceedingly talented and ingenious one (or many) of us could pull out our video camera (preferably hi-def) and do some high powered marketing for our precious remaining nurseries, rose conservatories and rose gardening itself. The key would be to get these ads "picked up" by larger media outlets. That's where the genius comes in. We need to put our thinking caps on and get to work. Millions of people clicked on that dancing wedding on YouTube and had a great time watching and emailing it. Ah-ha! After you post your video don't forget to email it. Humor, beauty and a succinct message might go a long way toward cluing in the public at large to an activity that is interesting to more people than just their grandmothers. Paul Zimmerman made some excellent videos and placed them on YouTube, but I'm thinking more about pure advertising. Who says WE, the consumers, can't advertise Vintage, Antique Rose Emporium, Roses Unlimited, and the other small nurseries we love?

We can also contact local news stations and newspapers about the valuable resource that particular localities have in their own backyards. Maybe folks already DO talk up these nurseries, but obviously we need to do more.

Sherry

public gardens that have large rose collections would be a good place to try and have classes for awareness. Like say, Huntington Gardens or Descanso. They have "how to paint roses in the garden" type classes and classes on various plants.... why not a "learn about old roses" class,... you know, and put in the description of the class something shiny like "SO EASY!" :P :)

It is very disappointing that we have lost so many nurseries, since this post was made, we lost many more independent nurseries. I think the blame falls on the big box stores. For example Walmart right now has so many bare root roses still in the bag for months that no one wants. The roses I have seen still in the bags have cane rot and viruses. It is too upsetting to even look at them. I once bought a Peace for 1.99 like 20 years ago at home depot that was on the clearance table, and it did rally round, but now when I look at the bagged roses I shudder. And California is in the drought most people just want water saving plants and hedges that they don't have to spend very much time on.