I took a whole bunch of photos of Cornet at Sangerhausen last year for Seattlesue just to settle that question-perhaps she will see this and say what she decided. The problem as I saw it is that it is a typical Hp and could be any of several they had. I didnt personally have anything to compare to as HP's dont do well for me.

patricia

Consensus among the US and European experts is that the two roses are identical but they also agree that there is no proof that Cornet at Sangerhausen is actually Cornet, so there we sit...knowing but not knowing.

Sue

Suze has it.

It appears to be the same as the rose Sangerhausen has as 'Cornet' (aka "Rose Cornet:)

But Sangerhausen went through a period of huge chaos late in WWII. Kernel Mel Hulse said that a tank battle was fought over some of that land. AND the Russians took all of Sangerhausen's records when THEY left.

So we are no better off than we were before it was spotted in Sangerhausen.
And since it was first found in 1979, it seems reasonable for ARS to quit fussing around with it, and assign it "Grandmother's Hat" as an AEN, and move on.

IMHO.

Jeri

Very interesting, since I wasn't aware of the background. Given what's been said here, it does seem it's best to leave this rose as "Grandmother's Hat" and call it good. Thank you for the replies.

Ingrid

Another missing piece is a record, any record, of the sale of Cornet in the USA, if not in California.

20 years ago, Bob Edberg of Limberlost Roses, found an old illustration of Rose Cornet in an old book which convinced him at the time they were identical. It's probably one of those eternal questions which we are not meant to know the answer to.

Kim, no, that wasn't Cornet -- Bob is still convinced it is 'Mrs. R.G. Sharman-Crawford.' Or, at least he was when I last discussed it with him.

We in fact got our first "Grandmother's Hat" from Bob as 'Mrs. R.G. Sharman-Crawford.' We showed it under that name in ARS rose shows, and won multiple Victorian Rose trophies with it.

THEN we were told, no -- it was probably 'Cornet,' and dated 1845. So, we showed it as 'Cornet,' and won a couple of Dowager trophies with it.

THEN we learned that the 'Cornet' identity remained un-confirmed, so we threw up our hands, and showed it (when this was legal) as "Grandmother's Hat," and won some more Victorian trophies with it.

Now, that's not legal, so it can only be shown with Found Roses, where there is such a class.

Jeri

Re Sangerhausen-according to the director Herr Hawel the big loss to the Russians was the library. The Id of the plants has always been an ongoing thing since the original plants had to come from somewhere else. I did ask him how they maintained continuity in the identifications since so many of the roses are grown more as bedding plants than bushes-the HP's are grown this way and he admitted it was a possible problem but they are committed to accuracy. Cornet is not listed as questionable in the Rosenverzeichnis-the list of roses in the garden. They were in the process of updating the list since they had DNA work done on 500 or so OGR roses. I keep hoping to hear how that went. It is hard to see how many of these roses will ever be sorted for sure.

patricia

It is hard to see how many of these roses will ever be sorted for sure.

*** I've really concluded that some roses never WILL be sorted out.
OTOH, some of the ones that may never be definitively placed in a neat historic niche are my best roses.
I'm forced to conclude that the roses are more important to me than their names.

Jeri

Jeri..you are so right..beauty is beauty. Even when DNA work is done people still snick and snark about who is what-because what do you compare it to? It is interesting to see relationships between roses-confirmations of backgrounds and complete overturnings of established facts but still it is the rose that counts. I envy you your HP's and you can envy me my Gallicas.

patricia

You know tho Patricia, The only two HPs that have ever grown here worth a tinker's dam are "Grandmother's Hat" and 'Baronne Prevost.' Well, and "Old Town Novato," perhaps.

But you may envy me my Teas, and I will PASSIONATELY envy you your Gallicas.

Jeri