Unless someone has a VI copy of Granada, ALL plants of that cultivar will be virused.

If you are ordering from Heirloom, and you are concerned about virus, I recommend you ask them if:
1. Their plant is V.I., and
2. If not, has their plant been tested for viruses.

I would be more concerned, to be frank, about how well 'Granada' would grow on its own roots. It was never bred or selected to be grown that way, and may not perform or grow well, own-root.

Or -- it may. Worth a try, I suppose.

Jeri

There are also other US vendor listed on HMF. You might want to check with them, too.

Smiles,
Lyn

You can be confident that Heirloom has never seen virus symptoms on their plant and that customers have not complained of virus symptoms. The are very conscientious about that. Non-symptomatic viruses are always possible. However, I understand most California growers don't worry much about virus.

Growing on its own roots might be an issue for this relatively compact HT. If you are impatient, you might be happier with a grafted plant from Regan.

Granada is virused? How very unfortunate. It is a lovely rose. I found it very hard to grow and concluded it needed a cooler climate. Then I read at HMF that it is only hardy to zone 7.

I am slowly compiling my list of roses which are only available infected with some form of RMV. So far: Cl Sunflare (that one hurts), Lucky Piece, and now, Granada.

Now I am confused. Some of the vendors (e.g. Heirloom) guarantee they produce virus-free roses (free of RMV), yet some of you say all Granadas are virused. And then there's own-root vs. bare-root and grafted. My head is spinning.

Whether own-root or grafted, all I want a healthy rose that will grow strong to its intended height.

And one of the sites says to remove ALL the soil from the hole if replacing an old rose with a new one, and refill it with commercial mix. Right now, we have a yellow squash growing in that hole as a temporary home until we plant a new rose. Do I really have to remove all the old soil?

Heirloom states that a majority of their parent stock comes from overseas and claim that rmv is not heard of there. They also state that any local parent stock has been virus indexed. I would trust that would be the case with Granada.

An "overseas" origin simply is NOT a guarantee of virus-free status. There ARE virused plants "overseas."

I, myself, purchased from Heirloom two David Austin roses that grew up to demonstrate the most spectacular EVER case of virus.

They were loathe to believe that because their "mother plant" came "directly from Austin."
They did, however, eventually admit that I was correct, and the roses WERE virused.

Beside all that, 'Granada' was "born in the U.S.A.," and infected with RMV here the first time stock was budded up to Dr. Huey rootstock. If you understand how a rose was "made" here, you will understand why that is so.

It may be, however, that Heirloom has obtained VI stock, and that is why I said that, IF Jenn is concerned about virus, she should ASK.

Though it is listed as "Custom Root Only," Vintage does list Granada, VID. Heirloom's clone of Granada may come from the same source. The only way to find out is to ask.

As I said, my greater concern would be how the rose would perform on its own roots, and I would ask about that, too.

Jenn, if you are getting this rose from Heirloom, you probably will not be planting it in the ground for some time. It should probably first go into a 1-G pot, so you have lots of time to worry about preparing the hole.

Jeri

Here is what rose mosaic virus expert Malcolm Manners (of Florida Southern College) wrote in the Antique Roses forum, "What's the best nursery free of Rose Mosaic virus?" thread on 2/22/12:

"Jon, I've not yet found a rose that went through the RYT nursery that was not infected with that same characteristic strain of PNRSV. I don't know when they first acquired the virus -- it's entirely possible that they were in business for quite a while before that happened. So perhaps some of their earlier releases were clean.
In thinking about mosaic in Europe -- I've seen quite a lot of it at Kew, but as I recall, that was always on modern HT/G/F classes of roses. I can't recall ever seeing it on an OGR. I do believe that most of Europe's own roses remain clean.

And in some defense of Heirloom, in addition to importing their stock, it was my understanding (from direct correspondence with John Clements) that he was having the entire collection indexed by Washington State's ELISA lab. I don't know that that got completed before John's passing, but he had the concept anyway."

He posted a list of roses Florida Southern had indexed and was still growing in another thread. I have it bookmarked..... Plus there is an article on the web that also includes a list (with some different roses) of treated roses by Florida Southern as of the 1990s. Yep, have that one saved too. Will check and post.

Would be great to have a list of roses indexed at Washington State. Does anyone have such a list?

Melissa

Here is a link that might be useful: Malcolm Manners informative post

Nope, not a different thread but an earlier date, 1/3/12, in the "What's the best nursery free of Rose Mosaic virus?" thread in the Antique Roses Forum, Malcolm Manners wrote:

"I believe this is a pretty thorough and current list of what we have, indexed free of PNRSV and ApMV, at Florida Southern:
Archduke Charles
Arrillaga
Autumn Damask
Bailey Red
Belfield
Bermuda's Anna Olivier
Bermuda's Kathleen
Bon Silene
Brightside Cream
Carefree Beauty
Carnation
Champney's Pink Cluster
Christian Dior
Clytemnestra
Comtesse du Cayla
Cramoisi Superieur
Crepuscule
Devoniensis
Devoniensis (Cl.)
Don Juan
Duchesse d' Auerstadt
Duchesse de Brabant
Fields of the Wood
Flamingo Gardens Tea
Fortuniana
Gartendirektor Otto Linne
Gate Tayloe Musk
Gruss an Teplitz
Hermosa
Kronprincessin Viktoria
Lady Hillingdon
Leveson Gower
Louis Philippe
Maggie
Maitland White
Maman Cochet
Marechal Niel
Marie van Houtte
Mary Manners
Miss Atwood
Mister Lincoln
Mme. Butterfly
Mme. Lombard
Mons. Tillier
Moonsprite
Morgan Spring
Mrs. B. R. Cant
Mutabilis
Nancy Lee
Nur Mahal
Oklahoma
Old Blush
Papa Gontier
Paul Neyron
Penelope
Pink Pet
Prosperity
Queen Elizabeth
R. laevigata
R. moschata (G. Thomas's)
R. moschata(Elmwd. Cem)
R. palustris
R. roxburghii (double)
R. roxburghii (single)
R. roxburghii (spineless buds)
Red Smith's Parish
Reine des Violettes
Safrano
Saluda Musk
Smith's Parish
Sombreuil
Soncy
Souv. de la Malmaison
Souv. de St. Anne's
Spice
Spray Cecile Brunner
St. David's
Stanwell Perpetual
Temple Musk
Tiffany
Trinity
Vanity
Vincent Godsiff

Of course we're a college, not a commercial nursery. So while we make propagating material available to commercial nurseries, we do not make and sell plant directly to the public, except at special sales from time to time when we have excess plants. But these varieties are always available to nurseries who may want to propagate them."

Snipped out some other comments at the bottom of his post.

Below is a link to a paper on the website of the Amercian Rose Society. The paper was written by Malcolm Manners and is reprinted from the 12/93 issue of "The Cherokee Rose." Scroll to the end for the list of roses.

Melissa

Here is a link that might be useful: Rose Mosaic Virus Disease by Malcolm Manners

Wasn't trying to confuse matters or questioning others expertise, only forwarding information stated on Heirloom's site.

From reading previous posts, Jenn spent months trying to salvage and root what was left of her beloved Granada, the result of which would be an own root and probably virused to boot.

I do purchase bands from Heirloom and have zero complaints, I'm in z5 with brutal winters and sometimes horrendous summers and in 4 years and 12 plants have never had a plant fail when planted directly in the ground. YMMV

'Grenada' on its own roots may be perfectly acceptable in some locales, but it doesn't work well in my garden. In fact, even the grafted ones tend to be finished here after 3 or 4 years. I continue to replace it because I really love the rose. So far, I'm still able to find it as a grafted plant. I've built up a small collection of Lindquist roses over the years; a few of them do well as own-root plants, others simply don't. 'Grenada' is one that doesn't -- at least it doesn't for me.

Just checked the list of roses that UC Davis has virus indexed and which are available through their Foundation Stock Services. Granada is on the list (along with 459 other roses)! Current as of January 22, 2010.

Melissa

Here is a link that might be useful: UC Davis Foundation Stock Service plant list on HMF

This has been very interesting and I've learned a lot in this thread.

I don't think our old Granada had RMV (at least I don't recall seeing any signs of it), yet it is the only one of our oldest roses that wasted away to a gnarly stump with only 3 canes at the top and a few blooms each season; perhaps that is an indication of its true long-term vigor.

I may look for a grafted version, or a different rose altogether.

FWIW, in Newhall, CA (91321) from 1989 through 2007, I ran a bit over fifteen hundred different roses through that garden. I grew Granada Sunset, the striped sport of Granada, which definitely had RMV (and probably others to cause the striping) as an own root plant. The plant grew, but not terribly vigorously and it did flower, but not as heavily as MANY other older, obviously virused, own root roses (including MANY HTs). I put up with it because it was a striped sport and when it flowered well, it was fragrant and beautiful. At that time, the only striped HTs were all mutations and there were not many of them. I began collecting them prior to Ralph Moore having more than a handful striped minis available. I enjoyed it, but I do not grow it any longer. There were black spot and rust issues with it in a climate much less conducive to fungal issues than the one I now garden in. Kim

I can vouch for the fact that Granada is hardy to at least zone 6b because I've had it growing here for at least 5 or 6 years both potted and in the ground. Like most HTs there is winter cane die back but it comes through with or without protection each year. It isn't the most vigorous or healthy rose in the garden but it does have lovely blooms. As to whether or not mine is virused, probably, since it was bought as a bagged bare root from a big box store, but I've never seen symptoms on it.

People used to say that 'Granada' is partially resistant to blackspot (compared to other older hybrid teas, which is not saying much) but highly susceptible to mildew. My experience with it (in the 80s-early 90s) didn't contradict that.

My plant, on Dr. Huey, was probably virused without visible symptoms, but it bloomed extremely well. Flowers have great fragrance, and the colors are milder if you cut in tight bud and let them open inside. The plant habit is awkward, the foliage twisted and sparse, but it's a worthwhile rose..

I know that there is VI Dr. Huey available. Does anyone know if there is a nursery using this to produce roses for sale to the public? In the last few years I believe I got some clean plants from Weeks this way. At least I haven't seen any problems yet. My Memorial Day from them is growing much stronger than my own root from Heirloom. Not to say I don't like the own root as a plant but it just flowers less. I haven't had wonderful luck with replacing my soil with bagged mixes. Soil from somewhere else in the yard that roses didn't grow in worked much better.

That's been my experience with soil, Kitty. Ideally, the soil should be the same density and texture as that surrounding it. Bagged mixes are generally lighter than what most of us deal with and will likely fill up with water with heavy irrigation or rain. That can create a bucket effect and lead to over watering issues and out right drowning of the plant unless the other drainage is excellent. Lighter mixes can also dry out too quickly, leaving the plants in those spots more vulnerable to feast or famine than the others in the area. Amend the existing and imported soil if you feel you must, but keeping the whole bed as close to the same texture, density and soil type generally yields better results. Kim

Kim,

The rose class I took locally, the rosarian said the old rose roots left in the old hole can decay and gas produced from the decay can cause a new rose to die. He said to remove, by screening the soil, the old roots. He also said to use that same native soil (with minor amending)

Have you heard that about the old rose roots?

Decaying roots in general harbor bad stuff that attacks living roots as well as dying roots, so cleaning all roots (except perhaps the nitrogen-fixers like legumes) out of the soil is always a good idea. Also the activity of decay removes oxygen from the soil, and plant roots need oxygen as much as they need water.

Root removal is an especially good idea with tomato plants--its the decaying roots surviving over to the next year, harboring bad microbes and nematodes that make rotating tomato crops important.

A local botanist told me that. He had a masters degree in plant pathology I think it was, so I assume he knows something.

Hi Kippy, I guess if there are tons of root mass remaining in the area and the drainage is pretty bad, so it remains waterlogged, it might be an issue. The primary poisonous gas decaying material would release would be hydrogen sulfide in anaerobic conditions. Think landfill. As long as the soil drains properly so the aerobic bacteria (oxygen feeders) are active, any remaining organic material will eventually break down. If drainage is insufficient, anaerobic bacteria take over and the plants die. That's what happens when a pot stops draining, or a hole is dug where the water can't drain out, fills up and the plants rot. You've smelled it. In those conditions, pretty much ANY organic material in the soil would run the risk of generating poisonous gasses and killing the plant. Out of curiosity, did the person giving the rose class suggest you put amendments into the soil you were to plant the new rose in? What's the difference between that stuff and any remaining roots?

I have always tried to remove as much of the roots as possible, no matter what I've removed from the site, before planting, but that has been in an effort to reduce possible regrowth. I don't want Huey popping up all around something else I've put in the area, giving me something else to deal with. Of course, this is based upon thirty or so years of growing roses in Southern California soil where we usually haven't received feet of rain and where most native soils have decent drainage. Engineered soils are completely different animals. Kim

So, now I'm down to own-root vs. grafted. I would be happy replacing it with a different orange-blend rose, but Hubby really wants another Granada even if we have to replace it after 5 years. I explained it won't be very big the first couple of years.

So, it seems that a grafted Granada would grow the fastest. Heirloom claims their own-root roses grow pretty fast.

In your climate own root will probably develop quicker because you do have a longer growing season. I say go for it!

Two ways to consider it...

First, whether their own root plants take off or not, that is going to depend upon the inherent ability of the individual cultivar to develop a good root system under ideal conditions. As well as how "ideal" the conditions are under which it is expected to grow.

If you are comfortable the own root plant is lacking RMV, you can grow it on in a container, keeping it very well fed and preventing it from flowering until it matures into a plant you think it should be before planting it in its spot. It may, or may not, perform as well as the old, budded plant had in previous years. Perhaps the old plant's extra vigor from the root stock helped overcome some of the inhibition of the virus infection, enabling it to perform and persist as long as it did. Perhaps lacking that infection, or at least part of that infection as RMV is only one class of virus and the only one treated and selected for, their plant may perform nearly as well as the other one. There may well be others in the "cleaned plant", and they may affect its performance and longevity.

Second, a budded plant may well be infected with RMV (as well as any other viruses) and that may, or may not, affect its performance and longevity. But, the extra vigor of artificial roots should help overcome Granada's lack of vigor own root.

How involved are you willing to be to develop the plant you wish to grow? If you are ready to just plant the danged thing and get on with other projects, find a budded plant and handle it the way you normally would a new bare root. If you don't mind nursing a small plant in a can for a season or more, and are willing to risk the possibility it won't be as productive as the budded plant, get the Heirloom own root.

You might even get a clean plant, find some clean root stock and learn to bud your own. That way, you can make all the Granada bushes you want, and you will have a very good idea whether it has RMV or not. Kim

Kim,

I am very willing to nurse a small plant for a season to give it the best possible start, especially a band. I am the type that checks on new baby plants like a mother hen, and I would not plant a band straight into the garden anyway.

Chamblee's also sells Granada, in 1-gal containers, but their website doesn't state anything about a guarantee against virus-free roses. They ship starting mid-September (Heirloom will ship Granada in September), so would February or March be too soon to plant it in the garden?

I don't know Jenn. It depends upon the weather, how happy the plant is, how large you want it before you turn it loose in the ground. You'll have to make that call when it seems right to you. Kim

In case you are wondering, here is Granada Sunset at it's most recent bloom, on Aug 14. It's getting progressively less striping, with time, I'm afraid. This plant is on its own roots and it's a one cane wonder in my hospital zone presently, where it has near perfect conditions -- all the spraying, food, watering, and human encouragement to grow (yes, I do talk to them) a rose could ever want. My plant came from Vintage years ago, and it is not VID.

I DO NOT recommend Granada (or Granada Sunset) on its own roots. I have 2 regular Granadas on Dr. Huey that do fine. If Granada won't grow on its own roots here, it's hard to imagine it would ever put up with tougher conditions elsewhere, which is almost everywhere.

Kathy

Kathy, thank you for your additional input. GS is a beautiful rose and appropriately named.

Where did you buy your Granada on Dr. Huey?

Thanks Kathy. Remember the cuttings of it you brought me? Fortunately, they failed. Granada Sunset was discovered and shared with The Huntington by someone whose identity was lost/forgotten. I "discovered" it there, propagated it and spread it around, including to Vintage. So, yes, all the Granada Sunset plants out there originated with the plant at The Huntington and they are ALL virused. I seriously doubt anyone has incurred the expense to have it treated, nor do I expect if someone did, it would retain the striping. The "face" can be very pretty, but the plant is NOT. Kim

Jenn, I don't recall where I got the normal Granadas on Dr. Huey. If I had to guess, I'd say I probably ran across them on sale at the end of some long-ago bareroot season at one of the big box stores.

I agree, Kim -- not a pretty plant. Even when it was healthier here, it was still lanky.

And actually, I have to say I am not a big fan of "VID."
My Granada Sunset has never shown any signs of virus on its leaves, but it is entirely likely that the striping on the petals is evidence of RMV, in my opinion.

Years ago, I ran my own little one point test by buying a "VID" Fragrant Cloud and planting it adjacent to a Home Depot sourced Fragrant Cloud on Dr. Huey roots. They are both still there, five (plus) years later, and the Dr. Huey-rooted plant is still the more vigorous of the two.

Thanks, Kathy. I'll call around but so far all the on-line vendors I've found that carry Granada sell it as own-root. I don't want to go to the expense and trouble for a plant that won't do well on its own roots after being fore-warned.

And now that I'm thinking about the striping vs. RMV issues, I'm considering whether its a possibility that I'm spraying the RMV out of my Granada Sunset, and whether that might be the reason she is losing her stripes, perhaps???

I spray with everything under the sun in rotation, but every week Compass is consistently part of my mix (which is necessary for the mildew here). Compass is a broad-spectrum strobilurin-based concoction.

Has anyone ever tested strobilurin-based fungicides to see if they have any effect on RMV?

Kathy, you might consider altering the above statement. It's literally comparing apples to oranges. That might better be, "VID own root v. budded". That extra vigor from Huey can push through much inhibition. I would venture to suggest a VID budded Fragrant Cloud compared to an obviously infected budded one would be more pleasing as it, theoretically, should be stronger. Kim

Well, yes . . . Kim, sort of. My quest, however, was not to see if VID would grow better as an own root or as a budded plant, but rather to see if I should spend the extra money required to get a VID plant of the sort that is presently in commerce.
Right now, in commerce, one has only three choices as far as I can tell-- a VID own root, an own root that is not VID, or a budded plant that is not VID. I don't know of any vendor that sells budded VID plants, on Dr. Huey or any other rootstock. Thus, it doesn't make sense to do that comparison, because that is a combination that is simply not available in commerce today. I have no doubt that a VID plant on VID rootstock would be lovely -- the issue there is that those do not appear to be available for sale anywhere in the US. And I have no desire to bud my own plants just to get VID-budded plants.

Thus the point of my little comparison was just to see if I should spend the extra dough to get VID own root plant as compared to that other way that most of these same cultivars were available -- non-VID on Dr. Huey.

And for that, my purposes were served, which is to say that of the three possibilities, it was still better for me to get a budded plant, even it most probably virused, than to spend extra dough (not to mention an extra year of growth time) to get the only VID plants that are on the market, which is those that are own root.

Kathy

There is another possibility for getting a budded VID Granada on VID rootstock. Buy the VID Granada band from Heirloom and send it to Burling Leong. She is an expert grafter, and I believe she has access to VID rootstock. She might be willing to do this, but I'd ask. Plus UC Davis even has these available for purchase through their Foundation Plant Services (see Rose Price Link and List of FPS Disease-Tested Rose Selections links off this page, http://fps.ucdavis.edu/rose.html) if you have a specific rootstock in mind:

Rose Understock, 8" length, 5 to 99 canes/variety at $.50 each

Rose Understocks available (dependent on meeting their ordering deadlines, see link above):

Burr multiflora, IXL, De La Grifferaie, Manetti, Dr. Huey, Odorata, Fortuniana

Of course one would really, really want a rose to go through all this and be willing to wait.

Melissa

Here is a link that might be useful: Burlington Rose Nursery

Melissa, thanks for the information. I sent an email to Burling at Burlington Roses, asking if she might have a budded VID Granada on VID rootstock on her list or can bud one for me. I explained I'm an ordinary home gardener with no commercial interest.

I'll wait a day or two, and if no response (or she replies that she's not willing or able), then I'll order the bare-root from Regan Nursery which verified theirs was grafted. I forgot to ask if it is virus indexed... I'll ask when I call.

Melissa, Burling replied that she does not have a Granada in stock, and didn't offer to bud one for me. However, I don't really want to go through all that anyway.... :-) But thanks again for sharing.

Vintage's newest list just arrived in my inbox. It includes VI Granada, Heirloom and Angel Face. Ordering may begin tomorrow morning. Sign up for their newsletter on the Vintage site to receive the list. Kim

THANK YOU KIM!!!!! I signed up on this page.

BTW, Rogue Valley Roses told me their original parent Granada is "quite large and healthy".

You're welcome Jenn! I understand how it is to want a particular rose, whether it is the right one for the climate or whether everyone else considers it a waste of time and water. As Beverly Sills said, "I want what I want, when I want it!" Been there many, MANY times! Sometimes, even the rose considered the worst possible, turns out to be the perfect solution. Even when it doesn't, as long as it speaks to you, it's worth your effort. That is the sole reason Grey Pearl is still in my garden. What dawgs these two bushes are, and they are even budded, but when they do what they are supposed to, they touch me where no other rose ever has. I even broke my cardinal rule in breeding...I put pollen from the Atmore Lamarque on Grey Pearl and one is forming a nice, large, fat, promising hip! This one, I can't WAIT to germinate! Good luck. I hope you get exactly what you want. Kim

Kim, my hubby is the one who wants it most and I promised to find one for him. However, I told him that my reluctance is based on the fact that it will be me who coddles, waters, feeds, pots up, and covers it with TLC to nurse it along before planting it in the garden where I will give it more TLC and hover over it like a mother hen. I compared it to me wanting a certain color of paint that is made by only one brand and is known to require repainting every 5 years -- he'd be the one to do the repainting and would insist that I choose a different color! Anyway..... I love Granada too and will do my best to find a good one.

Meanwhile...... at the top of Vintage's main HT page is a photo of Condesa de S�stago which is a another beautiful orange-red blend I saw several years ago, researched, and then forgot about. He may want that one instead when he sees the photos at HMF!

Mom had her friends over today for a little garden party.
One of her friend brought a bouquet from her yard that had mom calling and raving about her roses. The description reminded me so much of this Granada thread. Going to go see the orange/yellow/red rose moms friend has had in the yard for decades tomorrow.

Kippy, please take a photo of it to post. In your climate, it may still look pretty good. Kim

Kim,

I will when we get a chance to visit her garden. She is about moms age and either did not hear the phone ringing or was tired from the party yesterday and was not answering this morning.

BUT, she left 3 of the roses from the bunch she picked yesterday, she said the rose has been there at least 20 years and is covered in blooms. She has lived there since the 50-60's and is on the Santa Barbara "Mesa"

The roses she left are a good 4" across and look like either a very deep rich colored "Peace" or a lighter than Seil's HPF Granada photo and more like the ones from the Olympia Rose Society garden photo.

I forgot to do a sniff test, but they were sitting outside with them yesterday so guessing the sniff test would have been nothing to smell.

Mom is in love with them, so I will have to try and start a few cuttings of them

I should note, I had no more planned rose bush location designated around the house. So no idea where it will end up, but it is from her friends place so it would end up and a special spot.

Mom wants to visit one of her other friends rose gardens too, I might need a bigger green house.... (the local Rose Society visited this friends gardens this spring and she says she has hundreds of plants)