Yes, it can be amazing what money can do. Local rumor has it that those beds are replanted every 3 years in rotation. Given the variety churn, I believe it. Since I think each bed contains 20 roses, and I think there are 18 beds, you can do the math and figure out the expense. The sole exception is the bed of Gen. Jack in the southeast corner.

BTW, Hyde Park is a fairly solid 6a, particularly that close to the river. They also get some significant protection in that garden from the hemlock hedge. We'll see what happens when the hedge comes down in a year or two. I expect they plan to replace it, but that will take a few years for it to grow in.

mad gallica - So then what you are saying is that even in zone 6a HT's cannot survive past three years?

They'll survive, but out of a bed of 20 plants, more than 10 will start to decline significantly. If we luck into a string of mild winters, they'll last a bit longer, but eventually the odds will catch up to them. These rose beds are at the Roosevelt grave site, and the expectation is that they will not look moth eaten when the world leaders and the world media come to visit.

This is a much harder climate on modern roses than what you see in the midwest. The best explanation I've come up with yet is that they don't like the winter wet any more than they like the summer humidity. You probably know people who have been growing roses for a year and a half who have better HTs than our CRs can manage with 30 years of experience and nothing better to do with their time.

I think there are 26 beds, arranged 2 x 13. I recorded all the varities in the front bed, and six in the back bed.

Peace
Grand Masterpiece 1978 JP
Impatient 1982 JP
Summer Dream 1986 JP
Double Delight 1977
Proud Land 1969
Milestone 1983 JP
White Delight 1987 JP
Queen Elizabeth 1954
Antigua 1974 JP
Seashell 1976 Kordes
Red Masterpiece 1974 JP
Prominent 1971 Kordes
2nd row, walking back to the entrace
Kordes Perfecta 1957
Rio Samba 1991 JP
Voo Doo 1984
Medallion 1973 JP
Sweet Surrender 1983
....
Tropicana 1960

Anyone know the seven varities I missed?

I'm not being argumentative here so much that, as a Zone 5 gardener who is new to roses, I'm feeling disillusioned and disappointed at reading this thread, especially after considerable first year success with HTs.

I certainly respect the opinions being posted and personal experience, but could someone point me to a documented source that says the same thing? I was chatting with a friend who's lived all her live in the Chicago suburbs. Both she and her mother were rose enthusiasts, grew plenty of HTs and had no such issues as having them flag after three years (or whatever). It was stated here that the Midwest is somehow an easier environment, but from what I know, I'd guess that the Chicago region would be pretty tough, weatherwise.

Also, I'm wondering are there any HT growers in Zone 5 who have a different personal experience?

And is this only true of HTs? What about Floribundas?

Bob

Hi Bob,
I'm in zone 6A, and have been growing HTs since 2001--I still have two HTs bought that year. The garden is now up to about 140 roses with around 40 HTs.

Unfortunately, the zone doesn't tell you all you need to know. Zone 5 with a lot of snow cover is a lot easier on roses than zone 6 with freeze/thaw every week. A thermometer covered with snow will measure around 32 degrees even though the outside temperature is much lower--great for a rose!

Many people have trouble with HTs because of inadequate disease control--weak roses don't survive winter. Big healthy roses do much better.

Winter protection depends on your climate--what works for one part of CT doesn't work for another. Our little state has three zones--5 through 7. My yard has clay soil with terrible drainage, while others have sandy soil with terrific drainage. Thus, some local advice works and some does not--even from the best rose growers in the state.

I'd suggest joining the local rose club for advice. The CT rose club is friendly to a wide variety of growing interests and techniques.

Bob - I asked the question because I hear from some people on the eastern seaboard all the time regarding their troubles with HT's. All I can tell you is that i have over 300 HT's, some as far back as 1995 when I first started and they all do fine here in Michigan. If I lose any it is because I gambled on a body bag that just never settled in before the cold hit.

Do not get disillusioned by the comments of others. I have spoken to folks in the same area as those saying HT's will not grow, and they have a completely different perspective on their own HT's.

By the way, the zone for Hyde Park, NY is zone 6

Disease control is a lot tougher on the Eastern Seaboard because of all the rain during the summer months--this Summer we are still having mushrooms pop up in our yard!

The old timers in our rose club rave about how the new fungicides do a much better job of Black Spot control than what they used to good, but they are useless if your garden is "no spray." Fortunately, there are lots of good shrubs that can be grown "no spray," but I'm not aware of any black spot proof HTs for our climate.

Growing HT's has a lot more to do with other aspects of your yard than climate. I have zero success with them. Mainly because in this area most of it is underlain with shale. Soil depths in most of my yard are a foot or less. I have raised beds in a couple of spots but still the depth is not much greater than the surrounding area.

Last year I planted some in containers and over wintered in my green house. They survived fine. However, my soil mix proved to be very poor on drainage despite having wicks in all the pots. I had to move them back to the green house to dry out. Being too wet also encouraged BS which defoliated some.

I really wonder if they are worth the trouble. Tough shrub roses do so much better and OGR's also handle my conditions, are fragrant, beautiful and lots' of them repeat.

Mike, there is a very sharp line running roughly down the middle of 6b in the east. Warmer than that, HTs aren't too bad. Colder than that, they become much harder very quickly. I know a lot of people south of that line that exaggerate how cold they are because they are about the coldest people they know growing HTs. There are also microclimates - mostly urban heat islands, that make some people think they are much colder than they really are. That's a very common phenomenon around here. The people who are succeeding with HTs all, coincidentally, have small, urban yards.

Otherwise, if you truly know people who are having good success growing HTs in an eastern zone 5/6, do everything you possibly can to get them giving advice. I'm involved with the big HT garden in Hyde Park, Vanderbilt, and we will be rethinking what we are planting because of the cost of replacements. We really should be purchasing about 400-500 new roses a year, and that's just silly money. If I can get enough ramblers and polyanthas into that garden so the HT count is around 500, everything becomes somewhat manageable. Montgomery Place has given up on their rose garden because of the cost. Kykuit, which is far enough south to grow HTs, has given up on them because of disease issues. Spraying in public spaces is problematic. It's only a matter of time before the state considers outlawing it.

BTW, I'm plugged into the ARS network. Once you make climatic (temperature) adjustments, nobody is really doing much better than we are.

How about using Hydrangea macrophylla as a zone indicator? We have have one in a protected spot with Southern exposure next to the house that gets bigger and bigger each year, but has never bloomed, so I really don't know the cultivar. But last winter was really mild, so we actually got some old wood this year, but that didn't bloom either. Our main rose garden is about 65 feet North of the house,, so I doubt it is in a "heat island." It does get wind protection from mature trees, hedges and underbrush, but I've never heard of that being a reason for zone corrections.