Tea-noisettes I grow (or have grown): Mme. Alfred Carriere (3 of them), Jaune Desprez, Alister Stella Gray, Celine Forestier, Lamarque, Reve d'Or, Crepuscule, Marechal Niel, and Phil Edinger's, all own-root. Of these, only two did not succeed: Crepuscule which was actually doing extremely well, until its roots tapped into a stump infected with oak root fungus, so failure not due to inherent weakness or climate conditions, and Marechal Niel, a combination of weak root system and sparse foliage made for extensive sunburn on the canes and leaves, leading to dieback in a continuing death-spiral -- not a strong rose on its own roots.

All rest are rampant (tediously so, in most cases) and thriving -- little encouragement needed, so easiest that way (keeping them trained and in bounds is another story).

Typical summer temperatures in Livermore are in the 90s and 100s (though last few summers have been abnormally cool, with more 80-degree days than usual). But, not as relentlessly hot as Las Vegas, for sure. Average rainfall 14"/year; biome classification would be semi-arid grassland.

The soil in this garden is gravel-clay which produces a dusting of alkali salts during summer, though the surface layers test neutral. A lot of it is pretty much subsoil with some amendment (lot carved out of hill toe). Drainage is adequate to slow.

Mme Alfred Carriere is, hands-down, the most heat tolerant, with blooms that look fresh and un-singed even if it goes to 105. The others may get crispy blooms in a heat wave (few roses, of any type, don't, in my experience), but there's always new blooms opening the next day, to enjoy in the morning.

Mme. Al is shade-tolerant (one of mine is in a fairly shady spot -- reduces later-season bloom a little, compared to full sun), so could be sited in a cooler position in a hot climate. Celine Forestier and Reve d'Or, also in less-than-full sun conditions, doing fine as far as I am concerned (I actually think it helps CF do better).

This post was edited by catspa on Mon, Aug 5, 13 at 12:19

Hi Lynn: My zone is 5a, where it gets -20 F. below zero. Chicagoland's strong wind brought down to -30 windchill factor in Feb.... so I bury all the root-balls 4 to 5 inches below ground level. For own-root roses to survive here they must have a vigorous root-system.

I get 40" of rain and 32" of snow. I have rock-hard heavy limestone clay. One needs a pick-ax to dig hole. Soluble fertilizer works best here. Soil pH is 7.7, hard-well water pH at 8. My 26 trees provide lots of partial shade.

Polyantha are easy except for the blue or purple blooms with multiflora heritage. Blue-mist polyantha doesn't bloom much, and becomes pink in my alkaline soil. Burlington sent me Baby Faurax instead of Lauren, and after 4 months, it's still 2 inches tall with yellow leaves.

I'll going to move Excellenz von Schubert (still yellowish) despite sulfur. I'll use a HUGE bag of MiracleGro (blue bag) instead of fixing my heavy clay ... less work.

Easiest class: Romanticas, and French roses bred by Meilland and Guillot collection are non-stop blooming here. Last year drought at 100 degrees ... these bloom well with my pH 8 tap water.

Austins: Wise Portia, Evelyn, Golden Cel, Pat Austin, Crown P. Magareta. These demand extra potassium and calcium for the zillion petals. All shut down at 100 degrees heat, except for Evelyn.

Most stingy: Hybrid perpetual Paul Neyron. He's 100% clean in my alkaline clay, but gave only a spring flush. I would be happy with a fall flush. Aimekitty in Southern CA with alkaline soil wrote in her blog that Hybrid Perpetual give fewer flush than others.

Most drought-tolerant, I never water these for 6 years: Knock-outs and FlowerCarpet (buried 8 inches. below ground level). Single-petals bloom better with the heat.

Jaspermplants,

So it is the Noisette in the Tea/Noisette that is likely the issue? What do you believe was the primary issue, heat, or the sandy soil?

I am going to purchase Crepuscule, described as a Tea/Noisette. Your Phoenix garden is one of my closest gardening counter parts, although you get about 30+ more days of 100+ temperature than we do here, 72 or so versus about 110, our winter temperatures can dip down to the high 20's, but that is usually brief. It was enough of a chill to kill two of my yellow bells plants this past winter:( Hybrid Teas, and floribundas can become monsters here. For all intents and purposes, it has been in the 100's since May; America CL., and Don Juan have blooms right now. There isn't an abundance since the first flush seemed to go on until June, but those plant are definitely creating color that I do not have to look down to see.

So the Teas are the go to for you in Phoenix? Mrs. B.R. Cant is beautiful! Is she very fragrant in your garden? Do you have to make any growing adjustments for them (soil,sun)

Jaspermplants, just when I thought I was sure of Crepuscule, as I type on this mini IPad, I keep looking back at the photo of Mrs. B.R. Cant on my computer screen and the vacillation begins; yet again, now with a pink instead of a deep yellow or apricot....

Lynn

Desert Garden, I'm sorry to have mislead you. I have started saying "true teas" when I give talks on the winter care of roses to distinguish them from the hybrid teas most of my audience is familiar with. If you just say "tea" to a non-OGR person, he hears "hybrid tea", and misses the whole point. I used the wrong term for my audience here, and for that, I apologize.

As for tea-noisettes, I have several here that do well. Like teas, some are very good, some less so. As for plain noisettes, I've grown a few, but somehow I simply don't love them. Blush Noisette had some crud disease that kept coming back and eventually I pulled it out. Narrow Water is mostly healthy but I just don't love it. A dull rose in my estimation, as I tend to like the opulent and extravagant over the delicate and refined. I've kept it for many years simply because I do love its name.

Rosefolly

All kinds grow well here except for blackspot and cercospora disease being so bad. The only classes that are somewhat disease resistant here are gallicas and albas, that is, most of the members of those classes don't defoliate. But with a 8-month growing season, I don't want to load up on once-bloomers. Most teas, chinas, hybrid musks, and polyanthas get a good deal of spot disease here, but there are exceptions. Some rugosas are resistant but some get diseases during rainy spells. A small percentage of modern roses are also resistant. So there is no class of repeating roses that grows well and looks good here without fungicide. Rather there are some dozens of individual varieties from all over the map.

But I don't mind spraying, so I don't consider it hard to grow roses here. We have plenty of water, moderate high temperatures, and adequate winter chill without a lot of winter damage.

My conditions are very much as Kim describes his in terms of seasons. I should have added that noisettes and hybrid musks are very unhappy with the reflected heat here, although the tea/noisettes do much better. Some of the early hybrid teas like La France, Lady Alice Stanley and Souvenir de President Carnot seem to tolerate the heat quite well also. A few Austins aIso do reasonably well. I haven't tried modern hybrid teas since they don't interest me for the most part. Polyanthas are also reasonably okay, although most of mine are too young to evaluate.

Ingrid

I find it very interesting that a lot of you have good things to say about polyanthas. I can't grow the poly-teas because of hardiness, but most of the rest turn day-glo, flaming chartreuse chlorotic here. So are you heavily amending soil to adjust pH, or growing growing heavily hybridized polys that aren't so touchy?

BTW, this is also a problem with rugosas. They aren't quite as bad as multiflora hybrids, but still much prefer a pH close to 6.

Lynn, I have Crepuscule and it blooms only once per year for me, in spring. I amend the soil, water regularly and fertilize with organic stuff maybe twice a year, if I feel like it. I don't fuss a lot over the roses, I guess I am kind of a laissez faire gardener.

The noisettes I have growing have mostly been in the ground 3 or 4 years and have hardly bloomed. The one exception is Setzer noisette which blooms profusely when it is not ungodly hot outside. It seems to be a great rose so far.

The tea noisettes are just very hard to get established here I've found. Duchesse D'Auerstadt has been good so far, only been in a couple years and it actually bloomed last spring. It is a good grower. I've had Celine Forestier in about 4 years now and it has only slightly bloomed so far. Don't even get me started about Chromatella; it just sits there.

As mentioned, I've had a fair amt of luck with some hybrid tea climber: Mrs Herbert Stevens, Climbing Snowbird and Kaiserin Auguste Victoria. They have taken about 4 years to get established though.

Climbing Maman Cochet is an easy one but it also takes about 3 years to get established.

As far as soil, my house is on former farmland (yes, there is a lot of that here; cotton, I believe). So, my soil is not terrible but I supplement with mulch and other stuff. Of course, my water is horribly alkaline.

Hope this helps; good luck! Since you are not quite as hot as us (who is?), you may have luck where I have not. Keep us posted.

Lynn, I realized I didn't answer your question about Mrs BR Cant. She is wonderful! Big rose though. I have not done anything special with her except putting a shade cloth over her the first year. She is very healthy and blooms all the time when it is 90 and below. She is planted in the front yard which faces south so she gets a good amount of sun all day. She is bordered by some lawn and so she gets some cooling benefits there. She is pretty fragrant and is an incredible cut flower. I would not be without her.

Also, I remembered, another bullet-proof noisette is Alister Stella Gray. Grows like a weed and blooms constantly (except summer of course).

Hope this helps

Rosefolly,

Oh no, I knew you were not referring to Hybrid Teas; not on this forum, but the whole Tea, Tea/Noisette, and Noisette classification is what I am trying to differentiate. When a person writes Tea, at this point I am assuming that they are referring to a Tea, not a Tea/Noisette which I assume is Tea and Noisette? HMF has separate classifications/listings.

Lynn

Michaelg,

So with a spray program, it almost seems that you can grow it? That surely provides for a lot of variety in your garden; except for Rugosas I would suspect?

Lynn

This post was edited by desertgarden561 on Mon, Aug 5, 13 at 16:20

Alister Stella Gray is a wonderful rose here as well, one of my favorites. My climate is not as hot as yours, though. We get some days in the low 100's, but most of the summer ranges from high 70's to mid 90's.

Also, Crepuscule repeats for me here.

Celine Forestier was a once bloomer for me and really, really bad PM. A gardener about 50 miles from me reported it as one of her healthiest roses, so go figure.

Rosefolly

Wow, this is becoming a great thread. I think some of the coastal CA newbies can glean important growing information. Btw, Grandmother's Hat is reported to be bullet proof by those who live in Ventura County and areas like that. People in super hot climates like me, jaspermplants, and Ingrid_vc; those who garden in the mountains of North Carolina, Strawberryhill in Chicagoland and similar places, Northern, Ca., even Italy, have all chimed in with information I believe can help gardeners on this forum who live near them or have gardens with similar conditions. We are still missing info. from the folks in the PNW, the Southern belt, I would love to hear more from Diane in Idaho as I have seen the beauty she has been able to create. Oh my, and what do Wisconsin, Minnesota, and North Dakota rose growers do; or have they just given up on roses? We must have gardeners in Ohio and places east of there too.

Ingrid_vc, if you are familiar with Temecula, CA would you say that your climate and conditions are similar, minus the boulders. It becomes fairly hot and it is dry there; but they do grow grapes that make decent wines.

I have read where some members of this forum participated passively, only reading posts; not jumping in and communicating. I am hoping that this thread will be one that I know is among the many, created by you all, that must serve to inspire gardeners everywhere. I know the knowledge you have shared, the beautiful garden shots, and rose photos have inspired me to re-landscape my front yard. I plan to grow the roses I never see here, in hopes of inspiring other Las Vegas gardeners to move away from a "Hybrid Teasville", but to mix it up, at least a little....

I also believe that if the demand goes up for OGR's, growers may increase the availability of the roses we adore.

Lynn

Interesting thread. Thank you everyone for your input.
I feel like I live in a very good place for growing roses. It's zone 8, rich clay, not overly hot summers, enough chill in winter for Gallicas and such. I do have to water in the summer. Mostly there is no rainfall from June until October.
The easiest class for me would be Species roses and Ramblers. In a pinch they could live all summer without water. Hybrid Chinas and Albas can get by with little watering too.
One problem we have here is late wet springs. 60 inches of rain is normal. Sometimes we get 80. Sometimes the cold wet soil is difficult for some roses and other things. We also have what I call "False Spring". This when fruit trees and my Banksias are encouraged by mild temps to bud followed by freezes or snow.

Pamela, I am SO envious of those rain totals! Your "norm" is still easily five times my best in the past few years. El Lay couldn't survive with that total, though. Most drivers barely make it where they're going with 5 inches of rain! Kim

Jaspermplants, under what circumstances and at what point did you put a shade cloth over Mrs. B.R.. Cant?

I know you deal with more heat than anyone in a major city. While I will dig holes, amend soil, prune, hose off insects, I have even moved plants, I won't shade a thing; once it hits the ground it is survival of the fittest.

With that being communicated, I am new to own root bands. Some will live in one gallon pots until I plant them in October, others will live in 5 gallon pots until March. Is it common for these plants to fail to develop the root systems and or acclimate to their new environment to stand on their own; without special shading, taking into account that it begins to get hot in mid to late May?

Lynn

This post was edited by desertgarden561 on Mon, Aug 5, 13 at 19:09

I am envious too of the Mendocino climate and rain totals. Sigh, wish I could afford to live around there...

FWIW, I grow only own-root the past decade and I do shade plants during hot spells the first summer in the ground, if they look like they are struggling (I tend to plant from gallons or 2.5 gallons here because, long term, the plants make a better transition to the crummy native soil by getting their roots into it sooner. I suppose I could accomplish the same thing by bare-rooting an older plant from a larger container during winter...).

It's not so much "survival of the fittest" but with how fast the root system of the young plant has developed versus weather conditions. Once there are enough roots (some grow them faster than others, lots of possible factors), everything is usually good. So, given my overall methods, rather than lose a young plant that can go on and become a fine rose for my conditions, I'll give it a little shade that first summer, if needed.

If it's still struggling with heat after that first summer (see 'Marechal Niel' in my earlier post), that's another thing entirely.

Catspa,

So maybe it would be better to plant them all in the ground prior to October if they are at least 1 gallon+. Some arrived in one gallon pots, and the others arrived as bands about 2-3 weeks ago. My thought is they will grow for 6 weeks or more. Our first frost usually occurs during the last week of November. Is it even possible for the plants to have time to get their roots in the ground in preparation the winter frost and for the heat during May. Our weather averages are as follows:

(hi/lo's)

Sept: 94/67 which due to the lack of humidity does not
really feel hot, but I am not a plant....
Oct: 82/54
Nov: 67/47
Dec: 57/39
Jan: 58/39
Feb: 63/43
March: 70/49
April: 78/56
Early May: 87/65
Mid May: 91 or so/ 70 and dry

June - August.... forget about it... if they are not strong they will not survive.

I read that roses begin to struggle once the temperatures hit about 89 or so.

I have never seen a shade cloth or anyone protecting a plant; even roses. I am placing roses all over my front, back and side yard. Umbrellas and things just do not seem feasible for the number of own root roses I have purchased. I do mulch like crazy during the winter and again in May. What am I missing here?

One thing is for sure, everything else on my list that I have yet to purchase for my yard will likely be bare root, on Dr. Huey rootstock.

Lynn

Forget umbrellas, except in a temporary emergency. Shade cloth is available in big long rolls at Home Depot, Lowes, nurseries, et. This can be cut up into plant-sized pieces--be sure to shade both top and the side (south) from which the hottest sun comes. Shade cloth pieces + bamboo stakes + clothes pins = new rose sun shelter. Not the most attractive thing, but we do what we must. If you have a homeowners association, doing the front yard this way may not work. :-)

People willing to use the techniques and put in the kind of extraordinary effort into gardening that previous generations did are pretty rare these days; rose-crazy, grow-old-varieties-on-their-own-root people are even rarer. So, I'm not surprised you've never seen it done.

Mulch is great, if there are enough roots.

I don't know enough about the frost conditions in your zone to comment on fall planting vs. spring planting. What is your usual lowest low temp in the winter?

If you think about it, planting roses in deserts is a little whacky anyway, but people do find ways (eh, jaspermplants?).

Hi Catspa,

Some roses, especially when established, can grow like weeds here. In amended soil, they need water; which we have to do for almost everything, so watering is a given, and food. We average 4.5" of rain throughout the year which is inefficient. I often have rose blooms on thanksgiving day. A lot of my neighbors have roses, but they are primarily hybrid teas, floribunda, knock out, and flower carpet roses.

Phoenix is hotter than here. We average about 70 days at 100+ degrees whereas Phoenix averages 110 days at 100+. But we do get colder here.

The average lows for Dec. - Jan. are about 39 degrees. My previous post has the highs and lows from Oct. - May.

Shade cloths... Hmmm. I don't want to lose my new own roots; I just had hoped that they would have the fortitude to stand on their own:(

Lynn

This post was edited by desertgarden561 on Mon, Aug 5, 13 at 23:43

Lynn, The "average" lows number doesn't convey enough information. For example, if Bill Gates walks into a room with 10 people, the average net worth of everyone in that room immediately goes up by billions of dollars....but none of them are any richer. The important numbers are what are the lowest lows and over how many hours or days. Another example: my navel orange tree can take maybe 4 hours under 26-27 degrees before the oranges are damaged (again, other factors may weigh in), but fewer hours at lower temps can do the same damage, etc.

"Average" winter lows here in Livermore are very similar to yours, but that doesn't mean I don't see it hit 22 or 23 degrees F most years, and lower (14 degrees at least twice in my life), from time to time and sometimes have had stem damage, etc. on unprotected young roses. It's those short bursts of really cool temps that can do a number on young roses/bands. If the low temps (below 30 degrees, say) are just intermittent and not too low, and extreme lows are extremely rare, you can expect to protect with sheets or frost cloths overnight, so early cool-season planting is feasible, but if there are prolonged bouts of really low temps (I'm guessing not, but I don't know), maybe not.

The roses you mention as common in your area are generally either grafted onto existing relatively mature roots or extremely vigorous on their own roots, so less of a problem getting them established and why they are the ones commonly seen these days.

Catspa,

It actually really averages about 39 degrees, last year we got about a week from 27 ( 1 day) - 34 or so, during January, but other than that it was 36-40 degrees every single day. One day only, in December, the low was 31, but overall it was consistently from 38-41, for the lows; not much variation. During February, the daily lows already exceed 40 degrees, with basically the temperatures just steadily going up from there. I know there are places, like Denver for example, that will have a high of 80 degrees one day and then 50 degrees the next and so on and so forth. With the exception of a day here or there, our temps do not vary much monthly, overall we know what to expect. That kind of fluctuation is unusual here, but it isn't overlooking that to make up an example, but a real similar situation existed, likely before I was born, in 1950 the low in December was 17 degrees; that's an oddity, not the norm.

The low cited is as cold as it became. One day in December it hit 31 for example. The lowest temperature on any given day I thought was the problem, as it always becomes warmer as the days progress. The winter sunshine is very, very, deceiving and all of my roses are rated to at least 7b...with most being able to tolerate much more cold than we ever get. But everything is mulched nonetheless. It is the new own roots that concern me.

Lynn

This post was edited by desertgarden561 on Mon, Aug 5, 13 at 23:55

Lynn, I would do early cool-season planting (Nov 1 on) of well-developed gallons in those conditions, certainly. Just throw some cloth over the little guys if it goes below 30 degrees F or so overnight, to be safe, though in that case they are better off in the ground than in pots anyway.

Catspa,

Thank you for the information and your patience. We wrap our Queen Palms in the backyard once the lows dip below 45, and I always have burlap left over and random stakes from all sorts of things. My hubby is like a McGyver lite, so I am sure he will come up with something too.

Lynn

desertgarden, I'm about 30 miles from Temecula and it certainly is hot and dry there also. The difference is that I live at 1700 feet and the sun is hotter, and it's also a little colder in winter here. I live on a pie-shaped hilly lot and the garden is at the narrower portion closest to the hill in the back yard with a very large concrete parking pad, stone walls and the aforementioned rock formations (the one only yards from the house is about 90 feet long, so it has a totally unique (i.e. difficult) microclimate.

I plant bands in late fall after it's cooled down directly into the ground after about 10 days in their pots, and have never used a shade cloth since it's cool enough. The only exception was Therese Bugnet where in the following summer I shaded it because it was right next to the concrete pad and the driveway. I would say it saved that particular plant. Right now I have Cl. Lady Hillingdon under a shade cloth because I had to move it away from a wall where it was starting to deteriorate during the summer and I knew that would stress it.

Ingrid

Desertgarden - I'll add my input to your original question about rose classes in the more northern climates, though I'm not east of Ohio. In my zone 5 yard, the OGRs that are mostly plant and forget are the shrubs, polyanthas, and surprisingly hybrid musks. I say surprisingly, since most of the Pembertons are zone 6 and up officially, but once they get their roots established they're trouble free and easy, frequently blooming and disease free, even in part shade. Like many other folks, my polyanthas scramble around the base of other plants or climb on low fences and bloom without any particular care from me. And among shrubs, Austins are pretty easy and good for relative newbies, though in other zone 5 areas they have to be babied a bit more. The modern shrubs are probably my easiest class of roses to grow, but being moderns they belong on the other rose forum. Hybrid perpetuals do reasonably well for me, but they require a bit of attention and aren't the easiest as a class.

I'm sure the once-bloomers like gallicas and albas would also do well here with as much winter chill as we provide, but like Michael I don't have the space to do them justice and have as many rose types as I tend to want. One rose class that DOESN'T do as well as it ought to for me is rugosa. The few that are in prime real estate (like Rountuit) are scruffy once-bloomers, my previous experience with Hansa was a blackspotted defoliation nightmare, and Therese Bugnet is in her third year and is no more than 2' tall, never bloomed yet. Our soil may be too alkaline for them to be happy.

Just my input from the northern zones
Cynthia

Ingrid_vc,

I believe that your input is precisely what I am in need of. Of my new own root bands and 1 gallons, the most challenging I believe will be Paul Neyron and Therese Bugnet; or so I think.

Has Therese Bugnet thrived in your garden. What special accommodations, if any did you make for her. Being a rugosa, I have read about a preference for acidic soil and I believe you have written that your soil is alkaline; mine definitely is.

It is in a one gallon pot that I received from R.U. on 7/19. My plan was to plant it in the ground sometime during September.

Any information or suggestions you can provide would be greatly appreciated.

Lynn

Thank you Cynthia,

What great information for people who garden in cold climates with alkaline soil.

Your winters are obviously cold. If you do not mind, may I ask what your summers are like? How would you describe your soil?

Lynn

Regarding shading Mrs BR Cant, I believe I got her from Antique Rose Emporium so she wasn't a band. I can't remember exactly but I probably planted her in October or November and put a shade cloth over her in May, when the real heat starts. She might have survived without the shade cloth but I think it helps keep the roots cooler than they would otherwise be.

I would never plant a band this time of year. I think I have done that but quickly learned they will not survive. I pretty much plant only in October-December, maybe January.

Lynn, I no longer have Therese Bugnet because she looked very odd with all my other roses that stayed green pretty well all year. The leaves turned yellow in fall and fell off, leaving me with a bunch of very thorny, naked canes in a rather prominent spot. In her two years here this rose didn't really have chlorosis and bloomed reasonably well, perhaps partly because it's a hybrid rugosa. I did nothing but water it and shade it the first summer. Your soil may be more alkaline than mine, however. If a rose doesn't do well for me with ordinary care then I take it to mean that it doesn't want to be here. I'm not sure any of them want to be here, really, but those that tolerate it get to stay and the others don't because energy-wise I can only care for a low-fuss garden. You don't really know how a given rose will act until you try it, and sometimes they can surprise you.

Ingrid

Desertgarden - heavens, you're welcome to ask - that's why we love discussions (though you are lovely and courteous in the process). We do have cold winters and hot summers, with more contrast between coldest cold and hottest hot than any other state in the US except South Dakota (apparently - I read this on a government post somewhere). Our winters are routinely below zero, but not nearly as long at a given stretch as when I lived in Wisconsin and it stayed cold all winter. What kills plants here in our winters is the rather extreme variability, and often the dryness they face going into winter. Sometimes the roses don't go completely dormant in the winter then get socked with below zero spells returning to false spring temperatures.

Then we get hot summers, usually long stretches of July and August in the 90's and 100's (except of course this summer where August is unseasonably mild in the low 80's so far). Again, it's the dryness and contrast that makes these extremes problematic for gardening, but nothing like the water shortages you've all been describing in California and Texas and other truly dry states. Roses can't be too tender, but they also have to be able to handle the heat. Nebraska is known for variability in weather, which means we don't face the consistent extremes in other climates but we have to be ready for anything. Well, except hurricanes - it would be one heckova storm to make to the truly landlocked Plains out here.

Cynthia

CATSPA SAID:
"The roses you mention as common in your area are generally either grafted onto existing relatively mature roots or extremely vigorous on their own roots, so less of a problem getting them established and why they are the ones commonly seen these days."

+++ Years ago, we went to an ARS District Convention in LV. It was, IIRC, some time in April. Since we were traveling with five large dogs (2 Afghan Hounds, 3 Dalmatians) we stayed at a motel a couple of blocks from the Host Hotel.

In going back and forth, we made some circles through the surrounding residential neighborhoods, with homes probably built in the late 1940's or in the 1950's.

All up and down those streets, the area was wildly colorful, with huge, fountaining, cascading froths of solid wine-red blooms . . . literally hundreds of plants of 'Dr. Huey,' in the full glory of its spring bloom. It was enough to knock your socks off, and to demonstrate conclusively why this rose was admired, in its day.

I've never seen anything quite like it -- but it sure demonstrated the hardiness of the good Doctor, in that climate.

Jeri

Hi Jeri: Too bad Dr. Huey doesn't bloom well in my zone 5a ... they are stingy giant weeds here. The rose park nearby doesn't have climbers, it takes a warmer climate than zone 5a for some climbers to bloom well.

Hi Lynn: Requoting what Ingrid wrote "In her two years here this rose (Theresa Bugnet) didn't really have chlorosis and bloomed reasonably well, perhaps partly because it's a hybrid rugosa."

*** From Straw: Ingrid has loose, fluffy decomposed granite soil. NPK of decomposed granite rock, it's 0-3.5-0, high in phosphorus, which turned Ingrid's Dark Lady rose into gaudy red. More info. about granite dust: "Granite dust contains moderate amounts of potassium and secondary mineral nutrients.... Decomposed granite soils are often sandy in texture, drain too quickly and dry out easily."

The best info. on decomposed granite soil is found in the below abstract "Land Degradation Development". Here's an excerpt on DG (decomposed granite):

"The native topsoils and the DG cut slope materials had non-limiting levels of pH, exchangeable Ca, Mg and K, and total P. Cation exchange capacity and sulfate��"sulfur (S) were low but similar between the two soil groups. Principle nutrient limitations are interpreted to be N, P, and possibly S and boron (B), in order of decreasing severity."

Here is a link that might be useful: ASTRACT on decomposed granite soil

Strawberryhill,

Thank you for the link:) Ingrid's decomposed granite creates a difference that always has to be taken in consideration when trying to determine how hospitable or inhospitable my garden is likely to be for a rose.She does provide a good point of reference regarding heat tolerance, alkalinity, and she has a knack for design; but my true test comes from the Phoenix gardeners, if they can grow it, unless they garden on a lot of land that has been conditioned for growing plants, etc. for years, it is likely but not absolute that I should have luck too:)

I continue to be amazed at what does and doesn't make roses happy. I noticed that you seem to be using vinegar now instead of lemons in the water for your roses? If so, would that change be due to the lower pH of the vinegar or did something in the lemon addition cause an undesirable outcome?

Lynn

Hi Jerijen,

You were in "Old Las Vegas". I have a friend who specializes in selling Real estate in that area, as I have never traveled through it; just driven down a street or two. I need to put a real drive through there on my "to do" list. Most of the homes here were built after the massive population explosion during the 90's and are situated about at least 5 miles or more beyond the strip extending to the mountains West, North and east of the strip. I currently live about as far North as you can get without hitting anything but desert , and fairly close to the mountains; but definitely far west of the strip too.

Lynn

This post was edited by desertgarden561 on Thu, Aug 8, 13 at 22:26

Hi Lynn: Used lemon/lime with vitamin C didn't cause any harm last year, but vinegar sure did this year. Vinegar is used to kill weeds, more caustic. When I put more than 1 tablespoon per 2-gallon of pH 8 tap water, it wilted my roses in 90 degrees heat.

Vinegar if less than 1 tablespoon per 2-gallon of water, can really darken roses' leaves and blooms. Radio Times gets vinegar-water and constantly blooms, but he gets more black spots & poorer quality of blooms ... NOT worth it in my humid weather and cut-flower goal. Might be better with dry climate and landscape-goal.

I like SOLUBLE gypsum (calcium sulfate) much better than vinegar. The one from Kelp4Less is 22% calcium and 18% sulfur. I love how sulfur deepens my blooms' color and made the leaves dark-green. I repost the info. on how gypsum greened up lawn:

"Use of water high in bicarbonates cause the grass to turn yellow due to iron chlorosis. Bicarbonates are toxic to root growth causing less root growth and reduced nutrient uptake.... The sulfur in calcium sulfate will increase uptake of iron, manganese, zinc, and phosphorus."

Sonia Rykiel didn't darken when I used NPK 0-52-34. She didn't darken when I used MiracleGro Bloom Booster NPK 10-52-10 with trace elements (higher iron %). She didn't darkened with horse manure only, nor cocoa mulch, nor granular gypsum.

But Sonia Rykiel's bloom darkened when I gave her soluble gypsum (calcium sulfate), plus horse manure see blooms cut today, August 8. Peachy-pink is Evelyn.

See link below for % of sulfur in various fertilizers, ammonium sulfate, potassium sulfate, magnesium sulfate, etc. Years ago I tested Epsom salt in a vase ... darkened blooms' color, but made scents stinky.

Here is a link that might be useful: Sulfur content of various fertilizers

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Thu, Aug 8, 13 at 15:49

Lynn,

Another thing to consider is that not all fill dirt is the same even if it is called one thing or another. When sub-divisions are graded, the soil is compacted, pushed from point A to Point B and if there is not enough native soil, fill is brought in. Usually it is similar material, but depending on the oversight by inspectors and drive for developers/contractors to get it done fast/cheap you might find you have pockets of different soils. And to get anything to grow, they may have also brought in top soil. Your soil may test very different in one part of the yard vs a different part.

Just like DG, it can be fine and compacted and used like concrete for walks and is considered a solid surface like concrete when determining how much of your lot is permeable to water. Or it can be larger and easier for water to drain through like what found in some mountain areas. Your DG might be more like the first example than the second (probably more like Ingrid's) because of the fines being washed downhill.

Can you guess my guy used to grade sub-divisions...lol

You might be better off considering just how much you want to amend your soils in late fall to late winter and if you really want to be outside in the heat of summer using special water or soil treatments to keep a rose happy. Not saying don't have that rose, just saying make sure dealing it it fits your climate and gardening desires

Strawberryhill,

The portion of my soil tested thus far had more than adequate levels of gypsum, but the pH (alkalinity) is the problem. The sulfate ion in gypsum will not lower my alkalinity so pounds of soil sulfur are proportionately placed at the bottom of new beds and mixed with my native soil, compost, more soil sulfur and organics. Using compost; adding soil sulfur annually, kept my pH where it needed to be in previous gardens ( about 6.5 ). Pine bark is great when I can find it:)

My current yard was so neglected and improperly prepared for a garden; so now I am tasked with working on this soil section by section.

I had been watering my own root babies in pots with water from indoors; we have a water softener and use potassium, not salt. During my convalescence, actually on-going, my hubby has been watering with the garden hose. During my little outing tomorrow, I am going to the pool supply store to get strips to test the pH for my water indoors. In the two weeks that I was watering using my tap, the plants were healthier than now. What comes out of the hose is about 7.8 pH and who knows what else is in it....I could check but given that we have some of the worse water; I do not want to know. Think I will press my hubby to connect the r/o system we already own.

Lynn

This post was edited by desertgarden561 on Thu, Aug 8, 13 at 17:29

Jeri, LOVE your story about the hundreds of Dr. Huey of Las Vegas. Sounds like his kind of climate (or, rather, the Dr. can deal with just about ANY kind of climate or soil), so much so that the scions (most of which probably liked it lots less) conceded the battle en masse. We have places like that here in Livermore...

Hi Lynn: I love hearing reports on your garden ... I'm rooting for your success ... That's interesting that potassium can soften hard water. Lynn, I wonder what type of potassium it is. Thanks in advance.

Salt index of potassium sulfate is 42.6 (50% potassium and 18% sulfur). Sulfate of potash has salt-index of 43, with 22% potassium, 11% magnesium, and 22% sulfur.

I'm going to order aluminum sulfate, to change some blooms to blue color, that stuff acidifies well, but there's the danger of burning roots. Many sites state that aluminum sulfate acidifies faster than sulfur. Can't find salt index of aluminum sulfate.

For nitrogen, salt index of ammonium sulfate is 88.3 with 21% N and 24% sulfur.

Salt index of triple superphosphate is 10.1, not bad compare to gypsum salt index of 8. Salt index of superphosphate is 7.8. I prefer superphosphate over triple superphosphate, but can't find that stuff anywhere.

Will order fish-bone-meal ... it's fun to experiment. Thank you, Lynn, for any info. on the potassium that you use to soften your water. I don't mind hard-well water, but my roses hate that stuff.

Here is a link that might be useful: Salt index of fertilizers

Hi Kippy-the-hippy,

In previous gardens, adding soil amendment cocktails occurred in February and August. August mornings can be in the 80's and because our level of humidity is so low; and I am Vitamin D deficient, it is great for me to be out August mornings; it actually feels great, this being communicated from a person who has an aversion to lot of sun on my skin ( skin cancer, premature aging etc.).

With that being said; digging up those beds; my gardeners are tasked with that. They leave about 1/2 - 3/4 the native soil on a plastic tarp, I add compost and the proper amendments based upon testing, and the size of the area, and shovel it back into the hole; small section by section. I am in the burbs where approximately 1/4 give or take to 1/3 of an acre plots of land are about average; my home actually takes up a good chunk of it, so it is not a lot of gardening space.

Roses are my favorite; like many, I will not be without them. Gardening, it is a love; I find it to be very therapeutic and despite how much I exercise, or don't, digging a hole awakens a muscle or two that had been overlooked.

This post was edited by desertgarden561 on Thu, Aug 8, 13 at 19:10

Hi Lynn: I found what they use to soften water, potassium chloride, or Muriate of Potash, with salt index of 116.3, quite high.

My husband's friend softened his hard-water, and the doctor found his blood pressure sky-rocketed, so the guy has to stop softening his water.

Below is a link that compares ingredients used in Turf Horticuture, listing salt index of Urea at 75.4, Potassium sulfate at 46, Ammonium sulfate at 69, calcium nitrate at 52, and potassium chloride at 116.3.

Here is a link that might be useful: Salt index of fertilizers in Turf Horticulture

Found a better source of potassium and phosphorus: Monopotassium phosphate NPK 0-52-34, salt index of 8.4. I tested that early spring on 4 bushes: Annie L. McDowell, Golden Cel, W.S. 2000, and Sonia Rykiel ..... lot of blooms, no wilting in the heat.

Here's an excerpt of Muriate of Potash, or potassium chloride: "Following an application of 100Kg/Ha of muriate of potash, enough chloride is present to create around 20 parts per million (ppm) of chloride in the soil solution to a depth of 75mm.

Luckily, chloride is highly soluble and therefore will not stay long in the soil so the effect of each fertiliser application is short lived. However muriate of potash will still disrupt the activity of many of the beneficial soil microbes every time it is applied.

So what should you use instead? These include:

Potassium Sulphate (K2SO4) (Provides Sulphate sulphur as well as potassium)

Potassium Oxide (K2O)

Potassium Carbonate (K2CO3)

Mono Potassium Phosphate (MKP) (Provides soluble phosphate as well as potassium)

Here is a link that might be useful: Muriate of potash, or potassium chloride

Strawberryhill, you are looking for superphosphate, not the triple super phosphate? I haven't found the triple but purchased a 4lb bag of super phosphate 3 weeks ago. The brand is Hi Yield.

Lynn

Strawberryhill, I sent a response and do not know where it went. The potassium chloride pellets are used by us for our water softener. We get a 40 pound bag for under $20.

Per Morton's it:
Reduces chlorides discharged into the environment
Provides essential plant nutrient potassium to the ecosystem
Is 99% sodium free. Our system makes the water feel good when we shower and is better for our skin and hair; we DON'T drink it. We generally use R/O systems for that. Right now we drink bottled water, recycle like crazy, and use distilled water from the grocery store in the Keurig.

My observation is that the own roots bands and 1 gallon seem to prefer the sink water I was giving it as compared to what is coming out of the hose outside that my hubby has been using. In October, they will go ino the ground, and the soil sulfur that I have been adding as well as other amendments will be their nutritive support.

Lynn

This post was edited by desertgarden561 on Thu, Aug 8, 13 at 20:23

Hi Lynn: Thank you for the info. on superphosphate. I prefer that over triple-superphosphate, due to higher % of sulfur:

Superphosphate provides 20% calcium, 12% sulfur, and 20% phosphorus, with salt index 7.8.

You are right that hard water is tough on skin and hair. My kid has curly hair, and it's tangled up from our hard-well water. My skin is always dry. I like drinking our village's water, it tastes sweet, and won the best-tasting water in the county.

Using fish-tank litmus strips sold at Walmart, I tested my water, pH over 8. I tested bottled mineral water, its pH is 7.5. A long time ago I had a landlord that bought tons of those Morton water-softener (and drink it too). Her son died young of a stroke at 50 years old. She had 2 strokes, then died right after her son.

My husband bought the wrong stuff, Muriate of Potash or potassium chloride, rather than sulfate of potash. Potassium chloride is what we use to de-ice our sidewalk in zone 5a winter. It browned my roses' petals, due to chlorine toxicity .. I found a picture of fertilizer burn that matched with the browning, along with this statement, ""Overfertilization - fertilizer burn can occur when excessive chloride fertilizers (e.g. muriate of potash) or high rates of nitrogen fertilizers (espcially ammonium sources) are applied."

No wonder the 6 tomatoes plants in front wilted when I watered them with Muriate of Potash or potassium chloride. High potassium or high nitrogen also induces calcium deficiency (Wikipedia info).... it's not surprising that I got blossom end rots on those tomatoes.

Strawberryhill,

Oh yes, I can see that happening; even with snow involved. I hope your plants bounced back. That use is very different from potassium chloride going into a large unit and being processed by the system; water runs through it and is used by our entire household internally. It is definitely very diluted, and we even control the percentage via the controls on the machine. We do not like the hard water nor the feeling that we just cannot rinse the soap off of our bodies either.

Lynn

This post was edited by desertgarden561 on Fri, Aug 9, 13 at 16:11

Hi Lynn: Oh my goodness! You really have hard-water! I visited friends that live in such areas ... I shower at their place, and the water felt so slippery, I could never tell if the soap is rinsed off. That was so annoying! I don't blame you for softening your water.

My water isn't bad, at least it feels clean when I wash my hands, and the water tastes good, rather than "oily-stinky" taste at my friends'. I did a taste test with my water vs. bottled mineral water, and mine tastes much better.

This is off the topic: Two of my friends in this area of limestone clay / hard water COULD NOT get pregnant, despite in-vitro fertilization, and fertility pills ... one drank softened water, the other drank bottled water. But everyone else got pregnant in this 400 house-new development by drinking our hard-well water from dolomitic/limestone layer. There were five women got pregnant in their 40's like I did.

We all had our houses built at the same time. Eight of the neighbors got pregnant at same time as I did, even those who failed at in-vitro fertilization, or had multiple miscarriages before. I should bottle my water and sell them !!

Strawberryhill,

That's interesting. You did mention that you have great water!

Lynn