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mendocino_rose

A Sport in My Garden

mendocino_rose
12 years ago

I'm so excited. After many years in a garden of many roses a sport has finally appeared. It is a sport of the Austin rose Eglantyne. I have made sure that it is different and not just a faded version of the original. I've been wanting to name a rose after Oscar Wilde. Does anyone know how it works to name a rose after someone long gone? Must you contact the estate?

Anyway here is a photo.

{{gwi:300530}}

Comments (59)

  • gardennatlanta
    12 years ago

    How fun for you Pam! I'm very happy for you (and just a little envious). I think it's very cool to have find a sport and even cooler to get to name it. If I ever find one, I would name it after the love of my life, my dw.

    Have you tried to root it? What's the fragrance like?

  • jacqueline9CA
    12 years ago

    I googled "Eglantyne sport", and up came a rose web site called Rose Talk Australia, where someone named Dave was talking about whether his Eglantyne sport would remain stable. It was dated June, 2010. Just fyi -

    Jackie

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  • jaxondel
    12 years ago

    Yes, Mendicino Rose, there should certainly be an 'Oscar Wilde' for (and in) our gardens! I've never attempted 'Eglantyne', so I'm not sure if your sport would find comfort in my garden, but I want to encourage your effort nevertheless . . .

    The rose-naming game is a fascinating proposition, especially if the honoree is living or, if deceased, the estate has control over the name.

    A rose-naming story I find sort of interesting is the one concerning the ever-popular 'Queen Elizabeth' (the first Grandiflora). Practically everyone (and most rose resources) assume that QE was named in honor of the present queen regnant, Elizabeth II, and that she granted permission for the rose to be so named. Wrong. The person for whom the rose is actually named (and who granted approval for the name) was Elizabeth, the Queen Mother when she was still Queen Consort to George VI.

    About 20 yrs ago, I attended a garden lecture at the Smithsonian during which the presenter, an Englishman (don't remember his name), commented that the rose named QE actually honors not the Queen, but the Queen Mother. Apparently the rose QE was in elaborate and lengthy pre-production for a number of years, and it was mere happenstance (1) that the rose's introduction coincided with the ascension to the throne & coronation of Elizabeth II, and (2) that the new queen and her mother happened to share the same name. The series of events turned out to be a marketing bonanza for the rose and its American hybridizer, Walter Lammerts.

    In attempting to check this story out, the only published confirmation I can locate is the entry for QE in BOTANICA'S ROSES. Sorry if I've bored all of you to tears, but I'm intrigued with rose minutiae like this . . .

  • cemeteryrose
    12 years ago

    No rose minutiae is too minute for me - bring it on! Very interesting. I'd have thought the name of somebody who has been dead for a century is fair game. I wonder if Austin got the estate of Gertrude Jekyll's ok. I guess he was safe with all of the Shakespearian names, although a Fair Bianca somewhere probably is preparing to sue...
    Anita

  • mendocino_rose
    Original Author
    12 years ago

    Thanks everyone for the interesting answers. Thanks for the links Kim. Wouldn't you know that someone is making money on his name. All I really wanted to do was show him some respect. I think I might perhaps find a clever way to do it without using his name. Jackie, I didn't think to google Englantyne Sport. I did look on HMF. Maybe I could talk to Dave in Australia. Seil I think it's stable because I've been walking by it for years thinking it was faded blooms of Englantyne. I finally just stopped and looked carefully and realized the blooms that were different were quite fresh. Gregg of Vintage has taken cuttings recently to root. Hoov there is a rose named after my DH sometimes sold by Vintage called Michael's Big Wahdoo. Jax I loved the minutiae.

  • aimeekitty
    12 years ago

    :) you could always name it after something or some quote, etc... so that it's obviously in tribute to Oscar, without directly using his name.

    It's funny isn't it, that you have to go through so much just to show someone tribute! Ah well. His is one of my favorite quotes. "To live is the rarest thing in the world. Most people exist, that is all."

    Goodluck! :)

  • roseseek
    12 years ago

    OK, here are a few thoughts off the top of my head...

    Living Wilde
    Oh! Oscar
    Rarely Wilde
    Wildely Rare
    Oscar's Homage
    Wild Life

    Too bad it doesn't sucker like a Gallica, you could call it "Oscar Running Wild" or "Wild Oscar".

    You're welcome for the links. I too often get fascinated by obscure things and love seeing where they take me! LOL! Kim

  • sabalmatt_tejas
    12 years ago

    mendocino- a beautiful rose!
    Kim- your story about 'fergy' made me laugh. It reminded me of a story my brother recently recounted- a friend of his had a rock band named 'ethel merman'. Once discovered, the band was sued by the estate of ethel merman for using the name. The band changed their name to 'pumpin ethyl'.
    Here are a few more suggestions: oscar's wilde, wildley oscar, earnestly oscar.

  • roseseek
    12 years ago

    Too funny, sabalmatt_dallas! I don't remember where it came from, but they might have also used something like Ethen Mermal. Perhaps a little off topic, maybe not, but I read a story about the long time feud between Ethel Merman and Rosalind Russell. Russell's husband was involved with Gypsy and Merman wanted the part. She complained of her low chances due to "The Lizard of Roz"! LOL! Perhaps that could be used to commemorate Rosalind Russell's husband? LOL! Kim

  • hoovb zone 9 sunset 23
    12 years ago

    Or just 'Oscar Wild'. Which he sorta was anyway.

  • roseseek
    12 years ago

    Oscar's Wild? So intent is more difficult to prove and a mis spelling be claimed? Pamela's Wild Oscar? Kim

  • erasmus_gw
    12 years ago

    All those are very clever names but I understand wanting to honor someone who seems like they aught to have a rose named for them. I'd like to name one after George Orwell. He loved gardening, and loved his roses. But if I named a seedling after him it would probably remain obscure.
    My first priority is to name some after my parents.

  • roseseek
    12 years ago

    That would be a whole lot easier to show permission to use the name than using that of a celebrity. Kim

  • mendocino_rose
    Original Author
    12 years ago

    Thanks for the name suggestions. They're really good. Oscar's Homage would do the trick I think. My husband said Wild Oscar. Somehow I think he would want something more subtle. I do still need to speak to Dave in Australia and see if his sport is the same since he mentioned it first.
    Erasmus, I didn't know George Orwell was a gardener. My favorite entertainer Richard Thompson said if he wasn't playing guitar he would be a landscaper. He reputatly has a wonderful garden. I bet he'd love to have a rose named after him. Actually in my garden there is only this one sport but there are uncounted seedlings coming up. I could name us all!

  • roseseek
    12 years ago

    Even if the sports are nearly identical, it wouldn't necessarily prevent either of you from registering them. I isolated a solid pink sport of Festival Fanfare many years ago, and sent in registration papers on it, calling it Festival Pink. Tom Carruth was on the registration committee then. They received from Britain papers for a nearly identical sport directly from Fred Loads (Festival Fanfare's sport parent) to be called Loads of Pink. Tom told me that the feelings were since neither rose was likely to be imported into the other's country, there was really no issue about permitting both registrations. We can't import roses from Australia, so there is very little chance the two roses will ever ben available in the same market. I'd imagine should both of you wish to register the sports, they'd permit it. Kim

  • mendocino_rose
    Original Author
    12 years ago

    Thanks for that info Kim. I just didn't want to step on anyone's toes. Where is Festival Pink Now? It sounds like a neat rose.

  • landperson
    12 years ago

    "My favorite entertainer Richard Thompson said if he wasn't playing guitar he would be a landscaper."

    We need a rose called "Vincent Black Lightning 1952"

  • roseseek
    12 years ago

    Thank you Pamela. Unfortunately, Festival Pink, like Dottie Louise, Beulah Belle, the repeat Amphidiploid seeding and a handful of others, seem to be extinct. The last I saw of it, Michael's Premier Roses offered it, un attributed. I emailed him twice to ask him to please just list it as my sport, with no response either time.

    I had no place for it after the dismantling of my Newhall garden. I thought it neat. I tried growing both Sparrieshoop and White Sparrieshoop, but couldn't put up with their insistence to mildew there. Festival Pink gave the impression of Sparrieshoop, but with no disease and more continuous flowering. It rooted quite well and made a shorter lived standard trunk than Cardinal Hume. I played a lot more with things like that in that garden and those days. There was more room, time and energy. Kim

  • mendocino_rose
    Original Author
    12 years ago

    I have the room certainly but I know all too well about the time and energy and water as well. I wonder if Michael of Michael's Roses has any of his plants left. The last I heard was something about a divorce. I used to enjoy going there. He had some nice roses.
    Landperson, Vincent Black Lightening would be a great rose name. It should be dark red. Red Molly wouldn't be a bad name either. We could go on and on.

  • rosefolly
    12 years ago

    How about naming it "The Happy Prince" after Oscar Wilde's famous and beautiful story?

    Rosefolly

  • labrea_gw
    12 years ago

    Have you already rooted it?

  • mendocino_rose
    Original Author
    12 years ago

    Paula, That's a nice idea.
    Joe, I gave cuttings to Gregg of Vintage last week.

  • david_lake_macquarie
    12 years ago

    Hi Folks, I'm the Dave in Australia, and I drop in here sometimes. Your Eglantyne sport does look like mine. It is a beautiful rose! I love the subtle colour changes. The perfume seems just as good as the original. Mine sported three years ago. I've had it budded for testing and all the plants have remained stable. I've sent one to a friend in Tasmania, where the climate is much colder, to see if it proves stable there.

    I wrote to Michael Marriott at Austin's Garden Centre in Shropshire, but he
    wasn't that interested in it. So I'm just sharing it amongst friends. All the very best with whatever you decide to do with it!
    Dave

  • mendocino_rose
    Original Author
    12 years ago

    Dave I'm so glad you saw this post. I tried to register at the site in Australia so I could talk to you but didn't hear back from them. Don't you think it's interesting that we had these sports so far away from each other? You might have read in these posts that I walked by mine for years just thinking it was faded flowers on Englantyne and then was suprised when I looked carefully at them. I won't be making money or anything like that from mine. Probably I'll give cuttings to Vintage gardens to sell. I might register a name. What did you call yours?

  • roseseek
    12 years ago

    Pamela, that's very common and has been for as long as commercial rose production has existed. Reading older Modern Roses and annuals, you'll find many examples of climbing HT sports occurring for various nurseries across the globe from each other. There were frequently duplicate registrations from several countries of the same climbing sport. Often, they would vary in their frequency of bloom. It took a while to sort through them to determine which was the better mutation, providing the most bloom and repeat bloom. If they could spontaneously mutate in multiple places, virtually at the same time, why not an English rose? Kim

  • jaxondel
    12 years ago

    Another example of separate but apparently identical sports occurred simultaneously on 'Gruss an Aachen' 80 years ago. Two competing nurseries in the Netherlands began to market a 'Pink Gruss an Aachen' at essentially the same time, and just as Kordes in Germany was introducing a pink GaA sport that they registered as 'Minna'.

    HMF indicates that the two Dutch sports quickly became confused in commerce, and that it's now impossible to discern one from the other. 'Minna', tho very difficult to find in the U.S., remains in commerce and may differ slightly in depth of color.

  • mendocino_rose
    Original Author
    12 years ago

    I've been fascinated for years with the idea of sports, how they happen, why they happen. Is every rose born with this possibility for mutating into something different?

  • seil zone 6b MI
    12 years ago

    I would think so, mendocino. It's just how the genes decide to mix it up that determines how the rose will act.

    I actually have sport in my garden right now too! I found this non-striped rose on my Red Intuition! It's a slightly different color red too. More orange red than the bluer red of the regular blooms. Not the best pics. I'm still working on getting those darn reds right!
    {{gwi:300531}}
    {{gwi:300532}}

  • roseseek
    12 years ago

    How cool, Seil! Good luck with the reds. Purples are also a witch for me to capture. THEY come out red. Argh! The sport (or would it be a reversion? I dunno) is neat.

    Yes, every rose has the potential for mutating. Some lines seem to have never "taken a walk", but there are those whose genetic fabric seems so unstable, they "unravel" frequently. Often, that potential is inherited by the offspring and passed quite a few generations. The famous old HT, Ophelia, was marvelously unstable and passed that on to Columbia, Premier and Talisman in the first generation. Each of these, in turn, produced many sports, as did their sports.

    As should be expected, many of them were discovered by florist producers. Who else is going to raise so many with such personal attention paid to each plant and flower? It's logical so many of the new sports result from the same production. I've long found the study and tracing of these unstable lines quite fascinating. I wish more information about the florist roses, particularly European types, was available. I would find it fascinating to be able to see what, if any, part such iconic roses as Talisman, Ophelia and Premier played in their creation. Kim

  • seil zone 6b MI
    12 years ago

    Yep, purples aren't easy either, Kim!

    Interesting about the florist rosers discovering a lot of sports but when you think about it, it does make sense. But then there is also Mr. Super Sport Finder himself, Peter Alonso, too, lol! I swear he must grow his roses on a nuclear waste site or feed them atomic waste or something!

    I have to say that I've come across more of them since I became aware of them! I never really looked for them before so I didn't see them even though I'm sure they were probably always there. Now I usually find one or two genetic mutants every season. It's fun!

  • carol6ma_7ari
    12 years ago

    Michael's big WHAT? Talk about sports!

  • roseseek
    12 years ago

    I agree about photographing purples. It seems the only way to capture them is in shade and later in the day when the Ultra violet light is at its highest.

    It seemed from what I experienced that if the proclivity was there for a rose to sport, it most often did it when growing at its fastest rate. Resources at good levels, weather as warm as possible without putting survival mode into play instead of development and the plant flowering at maximum capacity. If there was the tendency for something to happen, these conditions being met seemed to open the door for them to happen. All of them I was able to isolate and register occurred when the plants were growing and flowering at maximum production.

    The one I really wish had been more easily maintained was Great News Sport. A flower cluster was split in half with one side being the pansy purple and the other lavender. The central flower looked as if it was masked and painted, half purple, half lavender. Vintage was the last source of it and they lost it years ago. It was quite pretty. Kim

  • mendocino_rose
    Original Author
    12 years ago

    My satellite internet was down for a few days. Seil that's neat about your sport. I can't photograph reds well either. Kim I do so appreciate all your knowledge.
    Carol there is a whole long and funny story about Michael's Big Wahdoo. It started with a conflict we had over a glaringly orange unlabled rose that received the nickname from a silly song Michael used to sing. I really wanted it out of the garden but then kept it because I love Michael and he really loved that rose. It later died. When this seedling bloomed orange I named it Michael's Big Wahdoo.

  • roseseek
    12 years ago

    Thank you Pamela, much appreciated. I love the story of Michael's Big Wahdoo! If you have it on HMF, please add the story to the comments section. I love the stories behind rose names! I've grown many simply because of the names. Kim

  • seil zone 6b MI
    12 years ago

    And If you have a picture of it please post it there too!

  • zeffyrose
    12 years ago

    It has been a lot of fun reading this thread----so many interesting comments----
    I love the story about Michaels rose---LOL----
    I would be thrilled to have a "sport"--It has always been exciting to me just to root a rose----but to find a sport would be amazing------
    Florence

  • roseseek
    12 years ago

    You'll likely find one, Florence. Walk your roses regularly and watch for anything out of the ordinary. If you make a point of growing some which are known to be genetically unstable, your chances are probably greater fining one. Several have been mentioned here. You can look up various roses on Help Me Find and see if any sports are listed for them. You'd be surprised how many there have been released to commerce and the vast majority of them have never been released for one reason or another.

    Playgirl has sported several times and several have been on the market. Not that they were sufficiently different or improved, but they've been for sale. Linda Campbell, Ralph Moore's masterpiece mini x Rugosa shrub even sported to a coral pink, but was never released. Many minis have sported and been released. Check it out. It will surprise you! Kim

  • roselee z8b S.W. Texas
    12 years ago

    I had a gorgeous yellow sport on Lillian Austin years ago. Not being skilled in rooting I didn't try to do anything with it which I now regret. I wish I had called someone from the local rose society to try and bud it.

    Recently Gruss an Aachen sported a gorgeous orange flower. I was so excited I went to get my camera, but before taking a picture I rearranged some foliage to get a better shot and realized that a long cane of Pat Austin had snaked its way into the interior of the Gruss bush. It even had a button center and was exactly the size and shape of the other flowers on Gruss! I never saw a button center on Pat before. Very clever ruse, eh?

    Incidentally, my Pat Austin is on Fortuniana roots which lets it grow very large.

    Blush Knock Out sports red and half red flowers all the time. They are fun to have, but it's not unusual for Knock Out to produced sports.

  • zeffyrose
    12 years ago

    Kim---thanks so much for the information-----Now when I think back I probably have had a sport or two just didn't realize it---just thought they were CUTE----LOL

    Blushing Knockout will sport a red every so often but I just assumed it was a normal thing for it to do---

    I will be more observant in what is left of my poor neglected garden-----

    Florence

  • roseseek
    12 years ago

    Roselee, I hope the cane which produced that yellow sport on your Lillian Austin didn't get pruned off! That could be something quite nice! Should you find a sport, please tag it prominently so you don't accidentally cut it off. Just because you can't propagate it right now, doesn't mean you can't next spring or even the one after. As long as the mutation is stable, it should continue producing the change. Letting it mature into a larger part of the plant will give you a lot more material to work with so you don't accidentally lose it while trying to get it going.

    You're welcome Florence. What you see in the Knock Out mutations ARE normal for them. Many varieties never sport; some do it so frequently you almost forget what "normal" looks like. I don't remember the name of the rose, but Syl Arena had one of the Poulsen landscape varieties which was so unstable, he complained while we walked the fields in Wasco that he felt he should dump it. It was orange, but striped, splotched and threw so many varying patterns and colors of flowers he said he expected many complaints because no matter what flower you photographed, what it was going to do in a garden would never be the same as shown in ad material. The way those rows looked, he was right! It looked like a bunch of related seedlings as no two plants really looked the same as the next. They were interesting, particularly so due to their extreme instability, but can you imagine trying to create a bed of a rose where none resembles each other enough to make it feel unified? Putting one in a pot or as a specimen may have worked, but this series was created for mass sales. This one just wouldn't do for that use. Kim

  • windeaux
    12 years ago

    'Red Intuition' itself is a sport, so, technically, Seil's solid red rose is probably a reversion.

  • jacqueline9CA
    12 years ago

    Two great roses, New Dawn and Little White Pet, are sports of once blooming roses. I have them both and they have been stable, although my neighbor has complained to me that her New Dawn suddenly started only blooming once - I am afraid it has reverted.

    The Koster polyanthas, of course, sport all of the time, to a ridiculous extent. Mine usually stay either Margo Koster or a very dark pink/cerise sport, but they do go back and forth.

    I have a pink rather large miniature planted out in the front of my house - for years it has been throwing out canes with lovely pale peach flowers - I keep meaning to root them - this thread has reminded me, and I will try now.

    Jackie

  • zeffyrose
    12 years ago

    Jackie---that could turn out to be very exciting-----

    Please keep us posted

    Florence

  • nastarana
    12 years ago

    I once found a buff colored sport on Peace. Unfortunately I didn't know enough to leave it alone to grow big before trying to root it.

    That was the VID Peace. I am wondering if virus, or its lack, would have any effect? Would a plant tend to sport less if its' health and vigor were already compromised by virus? Or might virus affect DNA in such a way as to provoke sporting?

  • roseseek
    12 years ago

    I've not run across any "official research" answering that question, but based upon my experience discovering them, they have mostly appeared when the bushes were growing vigorously, most often very quickly. As if the genetic fabric was more likely to unravel when cells were dividing very quickly. Kim

  • nastarana
    12 years ago

    If sports appear when the bushes are growing rapidly, that would suggest to me that there might be a better chance for finding sports on non virused bushes, which would not have vigor compromised.

    Do you have any notion why sports often grow smaller than the parent? For example, Kathleen Harrop and Martha too, I understand, grow smaller than Zephrine.

  • roseseek
    12 years ago

    Theoreticaly, you could be right. However, some viruses may induce mutations. Phyllody can be viral or other phytoplasmic infection.

    Most mutations are degenerative. Not all, but most. Climbing mutations often are degenerative in bloom production compared to their original bush forms. Frequently, they are once flowering and require selection to sort out those which repeat. Cl. Iceberg is an excellent example. When first released, there were several strains of the climbing form, many of which didn't repeat and some which didn't flower much at all. Of course people wanted the more continuous, heavier flowering version and that's what has become the standard in commerce. Kim

    Here is a link that might be useful: Phyllody

  • mendocino_rose
    Original Author
    12 years ago

    This year one of my lillies mutated into the most incredible monster. It still had blooms. Is that Phyllody?

  • rosefolly
    12 years ago

    Did it have a peculiar large flattened stem? I had that happen to one of mine. Normal flowers, thought.

    And the gophers are eating most of the others.

    Rosefolly

  • roseseek
    12 years ago

    Flattening of the stems, sometimes with extremely odd flowers, is usually fasciation. Phyllody is the replacement of flower parts by leafy structures, such as Viridiflora and the now popular Dianthus baratus "Green Ball". Kim

    http://www.ballsb.com/en/images/pdfingles/dianthus%20green%20ball.pdf

    From Wikipedia: Fasciation can be caused by a mutation in the meristematic cells, bacterial infection, mite or insect attack, or chemical or mechanical damage. Some plants may inherit the trait. Kim

    Here is a link that might be useful: Fasciation