where are you exactly ...

ken

Cutting all the roots at once could be very tough on the trees. I'd suggest cutting half of the roots of each tree once the hottest part of the summer is over, in the next few weeks. That way, the big roots you cut will have the fall, winter, and spring to send out new feeders, while half the roots remain to support the tree. Then next spring or fall, you can cut the remaining half to dig up the trees.

Alex

I repeat Ken's question, as your location will temper the advice given.

Also, I would be a bit cautious with the shovel in my first cut, and not cut a full half of the diameter - that way, the majority of the roots will be able to feed the trees while the new feeder roots sprout. If you could, doing a third now - once this heat wave is over (if you are getting it - I had 103 in the shade of my porch this afternoon!) - a third in mid-Oct, and the final third when you dig the trees ought to be OK. The most recently planted trees should have the fewest problems with the move - to belabor the obvious!

Remember that the weeping and smaller JMs have relatively small rootballs at the best of times, so those should suffer the least. And I would double check to see which of the oaks or the other trees you have tend toward tap-roots - if any do, then you will have to give that one extra care as you dig and pot it - some tap-rooted trees don't take too well to having it abruptly severed.

And wherever you plant them in future, if in pots or in the ground - I would keep root-pruning them, whether for bonsai (smaller root balls) or for another move sometime in the future (larger root balls). And yes, I know you have already thought of this, but belaboring the obvious also applies to giving advice!!!!

Thanks for your advice, I will definitely remember to cut roots more frequently in the future. I think I will try the cutting a third now, a third in mid October method. I live on the outskirts of Indianapolis, Indiana, zone 5. I thought my username would give that away... :-) Do you have any thoughts on the airlayering approach versus the cutting parts of the roots now approach?

Many of your listed trees may not airlayer, and you would be out the "tops" of the trees, having to wait for another shoot to grow - and maybe to select one out of many - from the stump. AND, with few roots to sustain the needed leaf growth.... I do think your best bet is to root-prune now, or rather, in stages, and dig the trees next spring.

I asked here, and on the Maples Forum for advice this spring on airlayering a 'Bloodgood' JM, one of the larger ones, and the concensus I got was that I could try, but it probably wouldn't work. I opted not to try - in light of the extended drought, and now the record high heat I've been getting, I am just as glad.... If you had the understock available, grafting works well for maples - I don't know about for the others... And I don't know about the hardiness, but I can send you LOTS of tulip tree seeds come the fall, if you want to try growing seedlings!

Re. your user-name: it wasn't clear if you were Marc from Indy, Marc the Independent, or Marc and Cindy, so I asked.

Dibbit, your points are well taken. The Japanese maple I mentioned is actually just a regular JM, not a variety, so layering should work just fine for it. Coincidentally, it is also the plant that went in last, so it's roots should be closest to the trunk still. And you're right, my name could be interpreted in a couple of ways. Thanks for pointing that out.

this is how i move 3 to 6 year old cherry trees .. self sown from the birds .... in my zone 5 sand .. note the date .. timing is everything .....

{{gwi:331094}}

shoot.. i have to run .... more later ... ken

PS: you name indicated to me... mar and cindy ... lol ....

i am back ...

i wish you could post a picture to give us a better idea what we are working with here ...

anyway ... i have a nursery .. where i put 1st and 2nd year grafts.. for a few years to 'grow up' .... if i stuck them out in the 5 acres.. too many wouldn't get the TLC .. drip irrigation ... that they need ....

when the time comes.. i dig them up and move them around the acres ....

small minis.. fit in a shovel.. and i can move a ball of soil with them ...

larger plants... with my pure sand.. are nearly bare rooted ...

timing is everything ... in my zone 5 ... i do this the first two weeks of October ... 6 to 8 weeks for root growth before the ground freezes ... and two cool seasons before the next hot summer ... unbeknownst to me.. this is rather rare in warmer zones ....

most peeps tend to recommend early spring transplant .... as soon as the soil thaws .. while the plant is technically still dormant.. again .. 6 to 8 weeks prior to bud break and 8 to 10 weeks until the heat of summer.. for me in my zone.. this means 4/1 to about 4/15 for sure.. if desperate until 5/1 ... but you might start having problems ...

way back when .. i asked about root pruning.. it was suggested here.. that all you do .. is stress the heck out of them this fall .. and again in spring.. when you decide to move them.. it was suggested that you are better off only stressing them once ... and be done with the job ..

BTW ... sharpen your shovel prior to any work .. it really helps slicing through soil and roots ...

now.. what are you doing with these ... potting.. or planting .... if potting.. i wouldn't want to mess with wintering over potted stressed stock . so i would lean toward spring ....

ground to ground... in clay soil... where you will have a nice ball and burlap ... just go for it.. don't over think it ...

do you know how to ball and burlap a tree???

ken

Ken, thanks for your answers. I will try and take some pictures of the area over the weekend. I am not sure you'll be able to see a lot, but I'll see what I can do. To complicate matters a little more, the growing bed is right next to several hives of bees (they are the reason the trees need to come out, I am completely redesigning that area). Anyways, a couple of thoughts... I agree with you completely on the timing issue. I do have a feel for when do work on tree roots based on how far advanced they are in spring. The main difference between your situation and mine is the soil, You describe yours as sandy soil, and the roots on the tree in your pic confirm that. Your sandy soil forces the tree to develop lots of small feeder roots all along the anchor roots which improves your success rates. Mine are in compact clay soil that is not very conducive to developing those fine roots. In general I prefer moving and digging plants in the fall here, even though there is a somewhat higher risk of loss in a cold winter. However, I think fall has several advantages over spring at lest for me, because most often our spring is very brief before we get a warm spell and everything jumps out of dormancy. In addition, my clay soil is so saturated in spring that I can't work it until we had a couple of weeks of dry and warm weather, at which point most shrubs and leaves are well under way of leaving out. That's why fall is much better for me, my soil is still warmed up from summer, it is definitely easier to work, and on a personal note, I have less chores at that time of year compared to spring.. :-)

Ken, I read before that conifers continue root growth (although at a slower pace) through winter, as long as the ground remains open. Is that true for deciduous trees as well? If so, than a staged cutting of roots in late summer and than late fall may be advantageous. What's your take on the stress argument of repeated cutting of roots versus getting it over with in one step?
And finally, I agree with you, I will not try to mess with newly potted stressed trees. I find it's easier to overwinter them in a sheltered bed outside, so that they roots are protected.

I think I may try a test dig on one of the trees and see what I find fairly soon, once this heatwave breaks.

Thanks for all your thoughts and help!

Marc,
I've got pecans/oaks/walnuts of the same sort of age - planted between '98 and '02, for the most part, and I move 'em just like the photo ken posted above - dig 'em bareroot in winter and transplant. When they've gone to sites where I can water on a regular - or, even just an occasional - basis, they do just fine.
I moved about 50-75 seedlings, as bareroot transplants, this past March - some were 9-10 ft tall, but with the drought conditions we've had this year - most of these are far away from the house - most will not survive, and I'll have to replace them - and I've got plenty to do so with. But, some are still alive, with green leaves, and others will probably re-sprout from the root collar, but I'll have lost 5-7 years' worth of growth on them.

Just a quick update and big thank you to all that answered my question from last August. I went ahead and dug out every single tree in that bed in March of this year. Some had almost no fine feeder roots (Like the tulip trees and some of the oaks, and all of the persimmon trees), some had a few and others had enough to not even be concerned. I planted each tree in a large pot, most in those plastic baskets one can buy for planting water plants. To help them out I cut off most of the branches and just left a few smaller ones. I used my own Bonsai soil mixture, which is very porous and allows for good water drainage, lots of air and enough moisture retention and placed them in full sun (late March early April). I figured the extra light would stimulate the bud break. To date (June 9th) I have not lost a single tree, which is totally amazing. Even the trees with very little feeder roots are no starting to pick up steam and put out shoots all along the trunks. I am absolutely amazed at how resilient trees are. And I am excited at the prospect of having my own big boys to work with as future bonsai trees. Of course, now that I have seen how well that works I can;t wait for fall to harvest more seeds...lol
Again thank you all so much for your help and suggestions. I guess I just needed that extra reaffirming support. You guys are great!
Marc

>To help them out I cut off most of the branches and just left a few smaller onesThis has the opposite effect, actually, resulting in less root growth and slower establishment - as well as deforming the top. Growth of new roots in spring is prompted by hormones sent to the roots from overwintering terminal stem buds when these open. Growth of new roots is fueled by energy stored over winter in the branches and trunk.

I agree with Ron. I do not prune back the trunk or limbs of large bareroot transplants. The concept of 'bringing roots & top into balance' is just so much hooey. There's a lot of reserve energy stored in the trunk & branches, and auxins, etc. generated in the buds are necessary to promote proper re-establishment.

Since Mary wants the trees mostly for bonsai - if I am reading her postings correctly - then she would have trimmed them at some point in time. But, I would agree that I would have waited until the trees seem to have re-established themselves before pruning at them.

However, the practice of severely pruning the tops of newly planted/transplanted trees was a well-recommended practice for many years. I believe most of the trees survived, although their shapes might have suffered a bit!

I thought Ken's picture of the cherry tree was one of her trees. Speaking of bonsai, one of the reasons for re-potting these annually and pruning the roots at that time is that it dwarfs the top to prune the roots. Top-pruning reduces root growth and root-pruning reduces top growth.

A couple of things. My name is Marc, and I live just north of Indianapolis (Indy), hence my name... :-) although Mary is a good name too, just not for me...lol

I would never prune trunks or a lot of branches off if I intended to plant a seedling into my yard. In this case however most branches were just too thick to look convincing on a bonsai. I believe it is better to guide a trees resources from the beginning into branches that are not going to be cut off anyways after another year. I want to use the trees energy and direct it towards branches that are in the right places from the start. Does it delay root recovery? Probably. In my case though I am not looking at strong root growth. The tree is not supposed to put out strong new growth. Instead I want the trees to develop lots of feeder roots so they can sustain healthy growth on a bonsai sized tree. I hope that makes sense. Again, thanks for your comments.
Marc

Sorry about the name confusion, MARC. I do know how aggravating it is to be miscalled, but can only apologize. I WILL go back to the original posting and double check names in the future, but this time sort of skipped over the top postings and answered the last few - I was tired!

And for your purposes, it sounds as though you got exactly what you wanted. I hope you get some gorgeous bonsai out of the trees!

Hey dibbit, no need to apologize, I thought it was funny. Believe me I have done my share of name bungling... :-) I can't wait to be able to work on the trees some, but I will wait until at least next year, to give them plenty of time to recover and to strengthen.

Just be sure to understand that when you cut away part of the top there is less energy left to grow roots. Enough new roots may have been produced for your purposes anyway, but you will not have gotten lots of them as far as it goes - you have removed the fuel for the quantity of roots the tree was going to produce before it was pruned. After top pruning the roots do not carry on like the original top was still there.